Used Boat Prices Falling

[oldjeep]

6 minutes ago, kstateskier1 said:

Skiing isn't much cheaper that surfing.  Only thing cheaper is the boat.

and the fuel

[The Hulk]

10 hours ago, Michigan boarder said:

Blasphemy!  Look 69 miles to your SW in Warsaw, Indiana.  There's a show ski team on a private lake, you should check it out someday!  Invitationals are June 14-16 in 2024.

Use to go there .. when I could ski.. problem is it is a meniscule market.. I loved the sport! Sadly however it's dead it's always a shock on any of those lakes in that area or up where I'm at to see somebody actually skiing under 40... 

40+ grew up skiing.. 40 and under grew up wakeboarding.. under 30-25 range surfing..  new gen will be?.. maybe e-foiling ha. 

I grew up going to Chapman Lake in the area and still visit the area frequently 

Good ol Bart's Watersports was top of the game back in the day for waterskiing equipment, mail/catalog order!!!.. now gone.. Overtons, same story. Crazy to think barts was one of the first ECOM companies in the entire country! Sadly they never updated or invested in upkeep much thereafter.. surfing became super popular and they were still carrying mostly ski equipment They missed five critical years before they started bringing in lots of surf equipment..  same for overton's then they all tried playing catch up over the past 10 years and it was too late. Not necessarily just because of the lack of current hype equipment but mainly because their old school business models and not getting up to date with e-com In the rapidly and quickly changing internet era of the time. 

Crazy though especially considering what 20 years ago the big medical companies took over the area and the small cottages disappeared and turned into year-round homes and $$$$.

[Nick55]

Well, my wife wants to go to the Milwaukee boat show this January.  There won’t be any big boats that I can see on the roster, but we’ll see what deals are available.  And maybe I’ll find someone hawking skis and get a good deal on one.  I just got back into it last year after 20 years off and I need a decent slalom.  Not a tournament rider or even only course, but I’ll take what someone is willing to pull me through.  If skis are discounted, maybe it’s a sign….. if not, but boats are, Sunseeker for me!

[The Hulk]

Just back from an industry show.. many dock and lift companies north of the border are down  50% now coinciding with boat sales dropping in that range..

General consensus was it's gonna be rough for New years.. 

 

 

[Nick55]

Hulk, do you mean sales?  And projected, past or current quarterly?  Was there any indication of raw materials shortages still?  
In my industry, it seems like electronic components have caught back up but we seem to struggle with cast and formed metal products and/or sub-assembly of components before they get to us for production.  
 

Also, sorry if I derailed this thread with waterskiing comments, I’m jonesing for a fix (it’s a bit chilly in Northern IL now and I don’t have a wet or dry suit yet).

 

[The Hulk]

1 hour ago, Nick55 said:

Hulk, do you mean sales?  And projected, past or current quarterly?  Was there any indication of raw materials shortages still?  
In my industry, it seems like electronic components have caught back up but we seem to struggle with cast and formed metal products and/or sub-assembly of components before they get to us for production.  
 

Also, sorry if I derailed this thread with waterskiing comments, I’m jonesing for a fix (it’s a bit chilly in Northern IL now and I don’t have a wet or dry suit yet).

 

Sales, yes.. most are significantly below pre-COVID levels.. several have mentioned If things continue it could be worse than after the Great recession era. In fact most north of the border assume it will be. Luckily many did make hay for the past 2 years and are investing it into new products and cutting cost to ride it out.. 

It is interesting that you bring up steel, a couple of the guys had mentioned that steel is set to rise yet scrap is going down... 

Almost everybody though is sitting on the entire next year's of stock and then some especially the MFGs. Dealers that took heavy stock last year Also mentioned having most of next year's inventory on hand or more.. different regions are varying a little bit..

It was interesting to hear several more people say that the 1 million plus coastal boat market is still hot with a waiting list on numerous models.. However sub 1 million market is gone.

Im up in Indiana so it's not like we have places carrying $1m+ plus boats.. All I can say is A lot of the standard dealers are all packed with inventory showrooms are full... I'd be curious to stroll around Florida. 

Look no further than those companies in our industry that got snapped up by private equity.. costs and personnel are getting slashed.. 

 

 

[The Hulk]

1 hour ago, Nick55 said:

Hulk, do you mean sales?  And projected, past or current quarterly?  Was there any indication of raw materials shortages still?  
In my industry, it seems like electronic components have caught back up but we seem to struggle with cast and formed metal products and/or sub-assembly of components before they get to us for production.  
 

Also, sorry if I derailed this thread with waterskiing comments, I’m jonesing for a fix (it’s a bit chilly in Northern IL now and I don’t have a wet or dry suit yet).

 

Sales, yes.. most are significantly below pre-COVID levels.. several have mentioned If things continue it could be worse than after the Great recession era. In fact most north of the border assume it will be. Luckily many did make hay for the past 2 years and are investing it into new products and cutting cost to ride it out.. 

It is interesting that you bring up steel, a couple of the guys had mentioned that steel is set to rise yet scrap is going down... 

Almost everybody though is sitting on the entire next year's of stock and then some especially the MFGs. Dealers that took heavy stock last year Also mentioned having most of next year's inventory on hand or more.. different regions are varying a little bit..

It was interesting to hear several more people say that the 1 million plus coastal boat market is still hot with a waiting list on numerous models.. However sub 1 million market is gone.

Im up in Indiana so it's not like we have places carrying $1m+ plus boats.. All I can say is A lot of the standard dealers are all packed with inventory showrooms are full... I'd be curious to stroll around Florida. 

Look no further than those companies in our industry that got snapped up by private equity.. costs and personnel are getting slashed.. 

 

 

[RebesMalibu]

3 hours ago, The Hulk said:

It was interesting to hear several more people say that the 1 million plus coastal boat market is still hot with a waiting list on numerous models.. However sub 1 million market is gone.

 

 

>$1 million: I work for a diesel generator manufacturer that primarily sales to the marine market and I concur with their statements. Our sales are still strong.

<$1 million: I have a friend who manufactures jack plates and he has commented on his sales slowing significantly. 

[Michigan boarder]

On 12/8/2023 at 11:15 PM, The Hulk said:

Use to go there .. when I could ski.. problem is it is a meniscule market.. I loved the sport! Sadly however it's dead it's always a shock on any of those lakes in that area or up where I'm at to see somebody actually skiing under 40... 

40+ grew up skiing.. 40 and under grew up wakeboarding.. under 30-25 range surfing..  new gen will be?.. maybe e-foiling ha. 

I grew up going to Chapman Lake in the area and still visit the area frequently 

Good ol Bart's Watersports was top of the game back in the day for waterskiing equipment, mail/catalog order!!!.. now gone.. Overtons, same story. Crazy to think barts was one of the first ECOM companies in the entire country! Sadly they never updated or invested in upkeep much thereafter.. surfing became super popular and they were still carrying mostly ski equipment They missed five critical years before they started bringing in lots of surf equipment..  same for overton's then they all tried playing catch up over the past 10 years and it was too late. Not necessarily just because of the lack of current hype equipment but mainly because their old school business models and not getting up to date with e-com In the rapidly and quickly changing internet era of the time. 

Crazy though especially considering what 20 years ago the big medical companies took over the area and the small cottages disappeared and turned into year-round homes and $$$$.

 

Actually it's growing fast again, in a great Covid rebound, at least in Michigan and Wisconsin.  So is the 3 event world.  Yeah Barts and Overtons missed that completely.

I can't cite specific numbers in my area, but anecdotally I see plenty of new boats out on the water and there is a new 225 wet slip and ?? in/out marina going in on Muskegon Lake and is supposedly booking up slips and condo deposits quickly.  It could be that our location is an outlier in the trend though.

[kstateskier1]

On 12/8/2023 at 4:58 PM, oldjeep said:

and the fuel

Fuel burns pretty fast at 36mph too.

[Jhucke]

1 hour ago, kstateskier1 said:

Fuel burns pretty fast at 36mph too.

It does, but we average about 5gal/hour overall. This is nothing compared to surfing.

[CaptainMorgan]

16 minutes ago, Jhucke said:

It does, but we average about 5gal/hour overall. This is nothing compared to surfing.

got 400 hrs on my A24.  tracked every gallon at the pump since new -- i'm at ~4.8 gal/hr overall.  Even for surf-exclusive, experienced-surfers-only adult trips, never seen more than ~6 gal/hr averaged over a tank of gas.

[Woodski]

To actually compare fuel use, an RPM histogram would provide some insight on actual fuel use while skiing / footing / surfing etc.  My 5 gal/hr includes very little idle time.  I can't recall which Crew member did it, they recorded a data set of fuel use v time over a set.  IIRC peak use was in the ball park of 10 gph.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Woodski

[RebesMalibu]

Does the highest fuel burn come from cruising the lake since the engine is outputting power the whole time? Is the 2nd highest tubing?

[Ronnie]

Really interesting subject we are talking here, especially with all the BS that other boat companies spew about Malibu fuel burn but.. Way off topic. Would yall start another thread on your fuel burn data please?

[Jhucke]

On 12/11/2023 at 12:58 PM, CaptainMorgan said:

got 400 hrs on my A24.  tracked every gallon at the pump since new -- i'm at ~4.8 gal/hr overall.  Even for surf-exclusive, experienced-surfers-only adult trips, never seen more than ~6 gal/hr averaged over a tank of gas.

Thats pretty nice, I just assumed surfing burned way more doing laps while loaded down. I am pretty much idling or definitely upper RPM range, no in between on my boat

[Rack]

Getting back on the Subject.

 In The Wall Street Journal, Last week.

" Boat Sales Slump after Buying Spree During Covid "

The article states that Sales have sunk back to the lowest level since 2013. 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Rack

[The Hulk]

Just got updated info it's even worse.. I'll let it become public 😂

[Nick55]

Do share.  Pm if you can’t divulge publicly. 

[dwc032]

1 hour ago, The Hulk said:

Just got updated info it's even worse.. I'll let it become public 😂

Just post what you know. 

[smuurph84]

9 hours ago, The Hulk said:

Just got updated info it's even worse.. I'll let it become public 😂

Hulk with the tease! I feel like your next post should be a commercial  ad! Tmc version of don’t turn the channel / stay tuned !!! (Full transparency I have checked back twice myself lol) 

 

side note I follow my local dealer( singleton ) inventory closely . Might be a site issue but their inventory went from 112 on Thursday to 28 today??? 

[The Hulk]

I'll have to wait. Nothing crazy just some numbers.. 

Things are brutal out there in some areas right now. Boat show season has many folks already very nervous. 

 

 

[JeffK]

5 hours ago, The Hulk said:

I'll have to wait. Nothing crazy just some numbers.. 

Things are brutal out there in some areas right now. Boat show season has many folks already very nervous. 

 

 

But that's still speculative or anecdotal at best. Of course everyone is nervous. That's their livelihood and if the last three years is any indication, people are nuts.

The fed announced a plan for three cuts next year. Not sure if we get all of that in mass, but time will tell. We all know what pent up frustrations playing the waiting game will do to people. We can guess and hope at this point, but nothing will give us the crystal ball into the next three to six months of consumer behaviors, except watching the next 3 to 6 months of consumer behavior. Will there be deals to be had? You bet. A more accurate view would be comparing this upcoming year to pre-covid years. Many people talk as if the sky is falling compared to the last two years. Anybody with 2 brain cells to rub together knows that was never realistic. The only thing I'd be banking on is that we will land softer than the doomsday folks and not as great at those hoping for a year like 2022.

But in any case, if you've got numbers, share them. Otherwise, this just feels like I'm back in 8th grade being told that someone has a secret but they can't tell me what it is.

[shawndoggy]

9 minutes ago, JeffK said:

But that's still speculative or anecdotal at best. Of course everyone is nervous. That's their livelihood and if the last three years is any indication, people are nuts.

The fed announced a plan for three cuts next year. Not sure if we get all of that in mass, but time will tell. We all know what pent up frustrations playing the waiting game will do to people. We can guess and hope at this point, but nothing will give us the crystal ball into the next three to six months of consumer behaviors, except watching the next 3 to 6 months of consumer behavior. Will there be deals to be had? You bet. A more accurate view would be comparing this upcoming year to pre-covid years. Many people talk as if the sky is falling compared to the last two years. Anybody with 2 brain cells to rub together knows that was never realistic. The only thing I'd be banking on is that we will land softer than the doomsday folks and not as great at those hoping for a year like 2022.

But in any case, if you've got numbers, share them. Otherwise, this just feels like I'm back in 8th grade being told that someone has a secret but they can't tell me what it is.

zactly.  I don't think this is going to look like 08-09 (mass extinction of boat dealers), but it's definitely going to be a bad year.  Do I have any sympathy for my local dealer who is sitting on 19 brand new (15 of which are 2023s) Axis and Malibu boats (in addition to numerous cobalts, benningtons and chris crafts)?  No, no I do not.  These were the guys who wouldn't deal a dime off of MSRP 18 months ago.  Reap whatcha sew.

[redrooster]

 When a dealer is used to selling 100 of something every year, and the manufacturer  says, you will get 2, do you think the dealer should wiggle on his profit margins?   I am sure the sales guy who has nothing to sell is willing to take a huge cut on his commissions so he won't make any money.  Not only that, the manufacturer  for sure jacked up.the prices to the dealer and those are locked in.