Used Boat Prices Falling

[Bluefishcay]

1 hour ago, 85 Barefoot said:

1 mi/kwh is way low dude.  Efficient EV is commonly pull 4 miles/kWh. We see on average around 2.1. / kWh on our quad motor all terrain tire rivian fwiw.  If the lightning is only pulling 1 mile per kilowatt, its thermals are obnoxiously terrible.  I have a friend with the lightning. I’ll ask him what his miles per kilowatt are.  Dual motor R1T EPA rated over 400 miles.

In wam weather and slower speeds I would expect the rivian and lightning to get 2-2.5 m/kwh.  Go 80 mph in 0 deg with a head wind and I expect it will be less than 1.  I owned a Bolt and it could get 4-5 on a warm day.   Cold at highway speed, around 2.   Going up pikes peak, 1, luckily in that case you get to come down and regain most of the energy.
 This is the fundamental problem with ev’s using lithium batteries.  Range varies a lot depending on conditions.  This is why I want to know battery size, not some BS epa milage guess.  I don’t live in a warm city.   I live in the Midwest where it gets cold and we drive 100+ miles to get to a bigger city.    To get an estimate with 10% of usage, you can simply drop a 0 off of a similar constructed ice vehicle and get a close approximation of miles per kWh for warm conditions.  Trucks get 20-22 mpg, so 2-2.2 m/kwh.  Small cars like a cruise can get 35-40 mpg, so 3.5-4 m/kwh.   Figure 1/2-2/3 that for cold and/or high speed driving.  Same goes for towing.  If a f150 gets 8mpg, that’s about .8m/kwh.  

[Nick55]

51 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

Gents let's get this thread back on topic.. the boat market has collapsed !! Who's buying Malibu? 

Merging topics here, while I was shopping I will note I have a diehard Nautique friend and we have a mutual acquaintance that is diehard EV.  So we actually talked about the GS22 electric boat.   Digging into it a bit, the local dealer never sold one, and commented that they had zero customer interest which is a little surprising in the Chicagoland area.  About 18 months ago, you could buy a used one for $140k, which was less than 35% of the sticker price a year old.   It completely bucked the COVID used boat pricing model, where as the gas ones didn’t.  Now granted, you really need to keep it on a lift because daily charging after 4 hours of use would not be realistic if you trailer, and the chargers were upwards of $10k plus running the wiring to the boathouse, but all things considered, that’s a few years of gas…

[Pnwrider]

19 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

350 miles is here.  Towing 300 miles with no stops is not, lol. 

 

Is it though? Maybe based on the inflated range ratings you keep touting. I was all set to buy a model y performance for a lot of the benefits already stated. Went to the local Tesla dealer for a test drive and was informed you really only have 60% of the stated range. For the “long term health” of the battery, the rep told me you are only supposed charge to 80% and advised not to let the battery drop below 20%. Then factor in all the other non ideal factors like hills, cold temps, etc. I love the idea and practicality of an EV to the point I just had 50 amp service added to my garage so I’m not a hater. I just don’t think for my needs I’m ready to make the jump. Plus I was behind 5 white teslas in a row in the student drop off line this morning. 

[UWSkier]

My buddy has a Model 3 he uses for long distance trips.  He's a glutton for punishment and has some horror stories, but still loves his Tesla and is getting another one as soon as they replace his battery under warranty.

My neighbor traded in his wife's BMW X3 and got a Lightning. That's his DD and he absolutely loves it.  His wife drives their other vehicle, an F150 PowerBoost they use to tow their camper.

I see a ridiculous number of EVs here in Arizona.  Like 1 in 4 houses has at least 1 EV in the fleet where I live.  It just makes sense to have one of each for most standard two-car families.

Lots of Rivians here too.  Only one neighbor with a Lucid so far.

Edited January 5 by UWSkier

[85 Barefoot]

43 minutes ago, Bluefishcay said:

In wam weather and slower speeds I would expect the rivian and lightning to get 2-2.5 m/kwh.  Go 80 mph in 0 deg with a head wind and I expect it will be less than 1.  I owned a Bolt and it could get 4-5 on a warm day.   Cold at highway speed, around 2.   Going up pikes peak, 1, luckily in that case you get to come down and regain most of the energy.
 This is the fundamental problem with ev’s using lithium batteries.  Range varies a lot depending on conditions.  This is why I want to know battery size, not some BS epa milage guess.  I don’t live in a warm city.   I live in the Midwest where it gets cold and we drive 100+ miles to get to a bigger city.    To get an estimate with 10% of usage, you can simply drop a 0 off of a similar constructed ice vehicle and get a close approximation of miles per kWh for warm conditions.  Trucks get 20-22 mpg, so 2-2.2 m/kwh.  Small cars like a cruise can get 35-40 mpg, so 3.5-4 m/kwh.   Figure 1/2-2/3 that for cold and/or high speed driving.  Same goes for towing.  If a f150 gets 8mpg, that’s about .8m/kwh.  

I agree with most of that, other than that thermal management is now a priority for a lot of EV’s, and as route planning has improved, some energy is diverted to warm the batteries. Thus making them even more efficient. You can even pre-program a departure time in those kind of extraordinary conditions (which let’s face it are not common), but either way, You can use your wall charger to power the preconditioning of the battery pack for your departure.

Furthermore, you understand that the charge curve on a Bolt is absolutely nothing like most other EV’s on the road, correct? 

[jshaff]

3 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

I agree with most of that, other than that thermal management is now a priority for a lot of EV’s, and as route planning has improved, some energy is diverted to warm the batteries. Thus making them even more efficient. You can even pre-program a departure time in those kind of extraordinary conditions (which let’s face it are not common), but either way, You can use your wall charger to power the preconditioning of the battery pack for your departure.

Furthermore, you understand that the charge curve on a Bolt is absolutely nothing like most other EV’s on the road, correct? 

I'm still able to pull ~1.7-1.8 at 75-80 in sub 20 temps with my QM.  Not sure how much it would drop off when you get below 0, but we don't have too much of that where I am.

[85 Barefoot]

47 minutes ago, Pnwrider said:

Is it though? Maybe based on the inflated range ratings you keep touting. I was all set to buy a model y performance for a lot of the benefits already stated. Went to the local Tesla dealer for a test drive and was informed you really only have 60% of the stated range. For the “long term health” of the battery, the rep told me you are only supposed charge to 80% and advised not to let the battery drop below 20%. Then factor in all the other non ideal factors like hills, cold temps, etc. I love the idea and practicality of an EV to the point I just had 50 amp service added to my garage so I’m not a hater. I just don’t think for my needs I’m ready to make the jump. Plus I was behind 5 white teslas in a row in the student drop off line this morning. 

For daily driving, yes, the 80-20 rule is a guide. However, it’s not like running your ICE with no oil by going outside of that range.  There is no voiding of warrantees by going outside of it, it’s simply recommended if a longer trip charge is not needed.  

But for the record, I’m not touting any inflated range. Dual motor R1 T max pack is EPA rated above 400 miles. Am I saying everybody’s going to get that in the middle of Manitoba? No, but they weren’t guessing when they tested it. In fact, I watched videos on the EPA testing of EV‘s and it’s quite vigorous.  Seems more vigorous than that of Cummins diesels lol.  Our Rivian (again, quad motors and all terrain tires) could get 300 miles, prolly 260 at 80-85 mph. 

Edited January 5 by 85 Barefoot

[85 Barefoot]

38 minutes ago, UWSkier said:

My buddy has a Model 3 he uses for long distance trips.  He's a glutton for punishment and has some horror stories, but still loves his Tesla and is getting another one as soon as they replace his battery under warranty.

My neighbor traded in his wife's BMW X3 and got a Lightning. That's his DD and he absolutely loves it.  His wife drives their other vehicle, an F150 PowerBoost they use to tow their camper.

I see a ridiculous number of EVs here in Arizona.  Like 1 in 4 houses has at least 1 EV in the fleet where I live.  It just makes sense to have one of each for most standard two-car families.

Lots of Rivians here too.  Only one neighbor with a Lucid so far.

Nice humble brag, lol. 

[Michigan boarder]

5 hours ago, UWSkier said:

 

There's no reason we shouldn't be able to have the former.  Pull up to a pad, press button, batteries drop out, robot carries them away, another robot lifts the replacement cells back up into place, they click in, and you're off.  Spent battery goes to onsite megacharging warehouse.  Battery packs should be assembled like lego blocks so a cell cluster can quickly be assembled for whichever vehicle pulls in.  5 mins max, just like a fuel stop.

This is the key.  The world has been operating distribution warehouses like this for 50 years.  Electric lift trucks are way more powerful and efficient than their counterpart, and you simply run it till it's dead, then switch the battery and keep going.  We do this everywhere, literally, around the world.  As a GM in a prior role the electric lifts won out in every aspect, I ran detailed spreadsheets at each location tracking the expenses to the penny. When the industry can standardize that (like how they standardized 40ft shipping containers) it will take off.  Assuming we have the resources to make that many batteries.

[spikew919]

Posted this in the thread I thought it should be, but maybe it should be here instead 🤷🏻‍♂️😏

[UWSkier]

1 hour ago, 85 Barefoot said:

Nice humble brag, lol. 

It's actually a fairly modest neighborhood with a few rich boomer retirees sprinkled in.  This guy gets a new GMC Denali Dually every year too.

[85 Barefoot]

41 minutes ago, UWSkier said:

It's actually a fairly modest neighborhood with a few rich boomer retirees sprinkled in.  This guy gets a new GMC Denali Dually every year too.

Does he have a bumper sticker that says drive nice cars or your kids will?

[The Hulk]

6 hours ago, 85 Barefoot said:

Malibu stock seems resilient, however….

Just wait.. 

the CFO bailed ship for a reason... 

Edited January 6 by The Hulk

[The Hulk]

6 hours ago, 85 Barefoot said:

Malibu stock seems resilient, however….

Well I was meaning who (PE or other) is going to be buying Malibu (the company) not the stock. 

[jeffmx]

11 hours ago, The Hulk said:

I think it'll take even longer for these electric pontoons to catch on at 250K plus? WTH!!  Not to mention getting 480 volts down to the dock over the water  haha.

I think these came about over the past couple years and I think they will die as  quickly as they came about. Especially given the current environment of boating.. 

The entire boat market is collapsing as we speak I can't see highly niche vessels especially electric withstanding the next few years.. 

Also with The numbers I can't believe Jack missed his exit last year or so? Large CEO Fail IMO. . He must have a large carrot being dangled to stick with this right now vs getting a tarnished resume unless he's got a large payout being tied to the sale.... 

 

 Yes It will be an interesting year for the boating industry, that is for sure.

Thanks for trying to keep the "used boat thread" on topic.

[CaptainMorgan]

6 hours ago, jeffmx said:

Thanks for trying to keep the "used boat thread" on topic.

ha exactly, hope i don't get ostracized for my thought below on, you know, used boat prices... 

Anyone else see that BoardCo launched a feature on their website to give actual out-the-door prices on new boats?  they are a big centurion dealer , and clearly from the YouTube videos not a fan of Malibu/Axis, but i love the attempt at getting away from insane/irrelevant MSRP numbers with comically high 'discounts'.  They make you create an account to use their builder, haven't done it yet, but seems like a small price to pay to show you're at least a little serious.   the MSRP riddiculous makes it not only hard to plan for a new boat, but makes pricing of late-model used boats super awkward/difficult.

hope @JeffK doesn't mind me using his classified as an example, but its a beautiful 1yr old 26LSV just listed here for $255k...and MSRP was $362k!!   in my dreams of shopping that price bracket, before taking that leap i'd now have to start down the mysterious route of shopping comparable new boats (potentially across brands/dealerships - M242, 26LSV, G25,RI265,etc) to see if for $255k i could just buy new.  Things like availability, features etc, could still make the used boat a better option, but the point is that process would take a lot of time costing both potential buyers and sellers.  Such transparency could also help used postings be more realistic, which affects time listed etc. 

Frankly, there's been a couple times in recent years i toyed with upgrading my A24 to a new Axis or maybe Malibu (or gasp another brand), but lack of info or speed of getting the relevant info meant changing directions -- in my case, i bought a small Boston Whaler instead of upgrading the surf tractor    

So good for them, i'm hoping the straight forward approach catches on before its like buying furniture that's perpetually 60% off MSRP!!!  a guy can dream...

[Nick55]

I’ve gotta be honest, when it comes to pre-owned surf boats selling for 300k, I’ll be shopping used 50’ cruisers.

[COOP]

18 hours ago, Michigan boarder said:

This is the key.  The world has been operating distribution warehouses like this for 50 years.  Electric lift trucks are way more powerful and efficient than their counterpart, and you simply run it till it's dead, then switch the battery and keep going.  We do this everywhere, literally, around the world.  As a GM in a prior role the electric lifts won out in every aspect, I ran detailed spreadsheets at each location tracking the expenses to the penny. When the industry can standardize that (like how they standardized 40ft shipping containers) it will take off.  Assuming we have the resources to make that many batteries.

Tesla had this. They even showed it in action like 12yrs ago. You can find the video on Youtube. About 90sec to swap the battery. But it never came to fruition.

[COOP]

2 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

ha exactly, hope i don't get ostracized for my thought below on, you know, used boat prices... 

Anyone else see that BoardCo launched a feature on their website to give actual out-the-door prices on new boats?  they are a big centurion dealer , and clearly from the YouTube videos not a fan of Malibu/Axis, but i love the attempt at getting away from insane/irrelevant MSRP numbers with comically high 'discounts'.  They make you create an account to use their builder, haven't done it yet, but seems like a small price to pay to show you're at least a little serious.   the MSRP riddiculous makes it not only hard to plan for a new boat, but makes pricing of late-model used boats super awkward/difficult.

hope @JeffK doesn't mind me using his classified as an example, but its a beautiful 1yr old 26LSV just listed here for $255k...and MSRP was $362k!!   in my dreams of shopping that price bracket, before taking that leap i'd now have to start down the mysterious route of shopping comparable new boats (potentially across brands/dealerships - M242, 26LSV, G25,RI265,etc) to see if for $255k i could just buy new.  Things like availability, features etc, could still make the used boat a better option, but the point is that process would take a lot of time costing both potential buyers and sellers.  Such transparency could also help used postings be more realistic, which affects time listed etc. 

Frankly, there's been a couple times in recent years i toyed with upgrading my A24 to a new Axis or maybe Malibu (or gasp another brand), but lack of info or speed of getting the relevant info meant changing directions -- in my case, i bought a small Boston Whaler instead of upgrading the surf tractor    

So good for them, i'm hoping the straight forward approach catches on before its like buying furniture that's perpetually 60% off MSRP!!!  a guy can dream...

MSRP on boats is just like MSRP for Invicta watches, complete BS.

[JeffK]

2 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

hope @JeffK doesn't mind me using his classified as an example, but its a beautiful 1yr old 26LSV just listed here for $255k...and MSRP was $362k!!   in my dreams of shopping that price bracket, before taking that leap i'd now have to start down the mysterious route of shopping comparable new boats (potentially across brands/dealerships - M242, 26LSV, G25,RI265,etc) to see if for $255k i could just buy new.  Things like availability, features etc, could still make the used boat a better option, but the point is that process would take a lot of time costing both potential buyers and sellers.  Such transparency could also help used postings be more realistic, which affects time listed etc. 

I don't mind using me as an example, but a single data point may not be the best example. You don't know the conditions under which I bought the boat, or what I paid for it, or why I'm selling, or if I have to sell, on and on. I don't have to sell it, but could make someone a good deal and roll into the next one. If not, I'll happily keep it for another season. The MSRP sheet is the one that can be shared publicly to show the options on the boat. That's why I included it, so I didn't have to try and type out every single option on the boat, but nobody pays MSRP to begin with on these. I think with boat show coming up, you'll still find this is a pretty good deal, if you are in the market for one.

I think we are headed for a soft landing and things will pick back up, not to the covid levels, but likely the pre-covid levels. It is an expensive boat, but it is also absolutely leaps and bounds above the 23 and 25 in overall performance. I've owned all of them and can say hands down, this is the most amazing one yet. 

[CaptainMorgan]

1 hour ago, JeffK said:

I don't mind using me as an example, but a single data point may not be the best example. You don't know the conditions under which I bought the boat, or what I paid for it, or why I'm selling, or if I have to sell, on and on. I don't have to sell it, but could make someone a good deal and roll into the next one. If not, I'll happily keep it for another season. The MSRP sheet is the one that can be shared publicly to show the options on the boat. That's why I included it, so I didn't have to try and type out every single option on the boat, but nobody pays MSRP to begin with on these. I think with boat show coming up, you'll still find this is a pretty good deal, if you are in the market for one.

I think we are headed for a soft landing and things will pick back up, not to the covid levels, but likely the pre-covid levels. It is an expensive boat, but it is also absolutely leaps and bounds above the 23 and 25 in overall performance. I've owned all of them and can say hands down, this is the most amazing one yet. 

100% concur, tons of factors go into a sale from both buyer and seller perspective -- some financial and others emotional LOL.  When i saw it this morning just jumped out at me as an anecdote where MSRP isn't really relevant to establishing value of the thing for sale (but is a nice way to summarize options and see relative value/cost of each).  boat looks beautiful, wish i was a serious shopper for it as it would be a huge leap in every way...but that's not a realistic price point for me.  

Generally just frustrated that the opaqueness of new boat cost trickles into used market, and thats complicating the purchasing process for many data-starved buyers (like me) but obviously gives dealerships a huge data advantage / business opportunity.   

onlyinboards list of actual sales is another step in the right direction, but number of transactions is still too small given the variety of boat types, conditions, options, regions, etc.

[JeffK]

1 hour ago, CaptainMorgan said:

100% concur, tons of factors go into a sale from both buyer and seller perspective -- some financial and others emotional LOL.  When i saw it this morning just jumped out at me as an anecdote where MSRP isn't really relevant to establishing value of the thing for sale (but is a nice way to summarize options and see relative value/cost of each).  boat looks beautiful, wish i was a serious shopper for it as it would be a huge leap in every way...but that's not a realistic price point for me.  

Generally just frustrated that the opaqueness of new boat cost trickles into used market, and thats complicating the purchasing process for many data-starved buyers (like me) but obviously gives dealerships a huge data advantage / business opportunity.   

onlyinboards list of actual sales is another step in the right direction, but number of transactions is still too small given the variety of boat types, conditions, options, regions, etc.

I agree that it can be frustrating and I have been on both sides of this. I’ve been a dealer and a consumer. There are so many things that go into these types of things and so many costs that a dealer has it absorbs that a customer never even knows about. 

Best advice I’ve ever given and ever been given is that each buyer just needs to be happy with the deal they make. I’ve always just tried to focus on that. If I buy a big ticket item and am happy at the time of purchase with the deal I get, that should be good enough. If you come in a week later and buy the same boat, spend more time negotiating and get a better deal, that shouldn’t impact my happiness. If it fit my budget and I got what I wanted, so be it. 

[jjackkrash]

On 1/6/2024 at 11:24 AM, JeffK said:

Best advice I’ve ever given and ever been given is that each buyer just needs to be happy with the deal they make.

This is good sentiment, but it also sucks to figure out that because you didn't do your due diligence you are $50k to a $100k upside down in a boat a year later even though you were happy at the time.  It's one thing to be a few $k off, its another to pay at or close to MSRP on a new boat and then realize that was a fake price and now you are stuck in the boat forever or are going to take a serious bath to get out of it.  I have bought and sold a lot of boats and do have some sympathy for first time buyers who don't fully understand the market.    

Edited January 8 by jjackkrash

[dizzygti]

On 1/6/2024 at 1:00 PM, CaptainMorgan said:

is another step in the right direction, but number of transactions is still too small given the variety of boat types, conditions, options, regions, etc.

But once they are sold, you can't see the listing, determine options, know what area it was sold in, etc.    It's a start, but not enough data.  

On 1/6/2024 at 2:54 PM, jjackkrash said:

This is good sentiment, but it also sucks to figure out that because you didn't do your due diligence you are $50 to a $100k upside down in a boat a year later even though you were happy at the time.  It's one thing to be a few $k off, its another to pay at or close to MSRP on a new boat and then realize that was a fake price and now you are stuck in the boat forever or are going to take a serious bath to get out of it.  I have bought and sold a lot of boats and do have some sympathy for first time buyers who don't fully understand the market.    

This was me last year as a first time buyer.   I think I came out okay, but again, hard to know what used values are to know if I'm ok or not.    I'm not looking to get rid of the boat any time soon, more just want to know what to expect if I did.    

[The Hulk]

I wouldn't worry about it too much... Boat stands for bill on another thousand... 

At some point things will go back to normal or worse where you will lose a crap ton of money taking it off the lot just like it's always been with all vehicles in normal times... 

At the end of the day if you're truly worried about resale value then you have to look at possibly changing the style that you truly want or the colors that you want to ensure it may fit more potential future buyers when you go to resale.. You can't go too crazy and maybe you want to go crazy! Just like building a home there are a ton of upgrades that you will never get a dime out of and there are several upgrades that you'll get more than your money out of... 

At the end of the day a boat is something that chews up a lot of money and spits out a lot of fun! And as my father always said.. "fun ain't cheap" .

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10 by The Hulk