2004 Wakesetter VLX - Stalling & Surging

[Bozboat]

1 minute ago, Bozboat said:

I think my 99 monsoon II has a different set up. Here is what my regulator looks like.

Last photo is what @paulhey sent me

[paulhey]

6 minutes ago, Bozboat said:

I think my 99 monsoon II has a different set up. Here is what my regulator looks like.

Yes. That is different.  The Bosch part number that @dtm8119 shared seemed to be the match. And - I discovered that RockAuto and most of the parts stores will do a cross reference on parts. I was able to find an alternate locally. Standard motor parts 401 -- also known as GP Sorensen Fuel Pressure Regulator 800-513. 
 

So that bad boy is now installed. I'll get everything else out back together tomorrow and get her out in the water for the test....finally after that little missing gasket sidetrack. 😊

 

Will follow up tomorrow.  

[paulhey]

Well folks - while I do now have a very good understanding of the fuel system - the replacement of the fuel pressure regulator did not solve the problem. 
 

She ran like a champ as usual for about 30-45 minutes and then it started again. 

Same behavior. I did not have the fuel pressure gauge on, but it felt the same.   

A couple more data points for consideration:

1) After it happened the first time, we drove slowly back to the dock to drop a kid off.  Maybe 5 minutes of minimum wake kind of speed and went back out. While it still happened, we got more run time before it happened. (Maybe a short cool down?)

2) I checked, and so far the engine has thrown no codes. 

Appreciate the guidance.  

Time to replace the fuel pump?

Any thoughts on whether an ICM going out due to heat would cause this kind of behavior?

I really don't want to break down and have a mechanic come out for this. We can do it!! 😊

[justgary]

You really need to put the fuel gauge back on to verify good pressure under all conditions.

Yes, an ICM can cause all sorts of absolutely crazy symptoms.

[paulhey]

Thanks @justgary

I'll be getting the gauge back on - the kids had no tolerance for troubleshooting today. 
 

I think I understand the fuel pump I need to get - 556184 Pierburg or perhaps an equivalent if I can find it. 
 

Still haven't cracked the case on vehicle equivalents for this engine to find the right ICM. 

[dtm8119]

This is the ICM part you would need if you decide to try replacing the current one...

 

ACDelco D1943A Ignition Control Module https://a.co/d/7p5z3MS

[paulhey]

9 minutes ago, dtm8119 said:

This is the ICM part you would need if you decide to try replacing the current one...

 

ACDelco D1943A Ignition Control Module https://a.co/d/7p5z3MS

Thanks!

You are definitely on top of the parts game. Experience over time with yours or is there an information source?

[paulhey]

On 6/26/2022 at 4:22 PM, dtm8119 said:

Plug wires would be good to do as well not knowing the last time they were done. 

I'd recommend doing the fuel filter and also getting/renting a fuel pressure gauge to check that as well.  It's a tight fit to access the test port.  You're looking for ~60psi at all times

https://www.bakesonline.com/media/resourcelibrary/Indmar_96-06FuelpsiRef.pdf

One more thing you could do - see if you have any fault codes:

 

@dtm8119 Plug wires - Do you happen to know if the Indmar wires required or are there suitable automotive equivalents?

[Smooth]

On 7/22/2022 at 1:15 PM, paulhey said:

Then, when it happened, the fuel pressure gauge "vibration" was no longer +/- one or two psi -- it was more like the low was at 40 and the high at 80. 
 

Bring it down to idle - solid again plus or minus a couple. And then recreated the surging problem after about 3 minutes of running with a similar swing - 50-70 this time.

Did your new regulator solve this problem with the wide gap of psi from 40 - 80 and/or 50-70? If not then I would go after the fuel pump next. Not only does the fuel pump need to provide a constant pressure but also provide enough flow trough the regulator to keep things cooled down. The regulator helps purge the system of unwanted heat buildup by circulating fresh fuel through fuel pump, metal pipe and regulator/pump housing. 

[paulhey]

1 hour ago, Smooth said:

Did your new regulator solve this problem with the wide gap of psi from 40 - 80 and/or 50-70? If not then I would go after the fuel pump next. Not only does the fuel pump need to provide a constant pressure but also provide enough flow trough the regulator to keep things cooled down. The regulator helps purge the system of unwanted heat buildup by circulating fresh fuel through fuel pump, metal pipe and regulator/pump housing. 

@Smooth While I did not have the pressure gauge to 100% confirm, the behavior was exactly the same. I'm going to do another water test to confirm. In parallel, I'm probably going to bite the bullet and order a new pump. 

[justgary]

5 hours ago, paulhey said:

@dtm8119 Plug wires - Do you happen to know if the Indmar wires required or are there suitable automotive equivalents?

You didn't ask me, but I used a generic 8mm resistor wire kit from the big box auto parts store.  Lay the new ones out by length, then change one wire at a time so you don't get them wrong on the distributor cap.  Cut them to length and crimp the terminals on (don't forget the boots...).

[paulhey]

Finally got around to putting the new fuel pump it. 
 

So far, so good as far as fuel pump operation goes. 
 

However, I have a new challenge that is keeping me from getting it out for the full Lake test. 

I now have a small leak I need to resolve.

The pump has a metal tube that goes from the pump to the fuel distribution block. The leak is on the block side and there is a small amount of fuel coming from around the threads where the brass fitting attaches to a T fitting.  
 

Not sure what options to consider. New T fitting? New metal fuel line - those appear to be pricy. Both? Seal the threads?

Thanks much.  We'll get this!

[Smooth]

O-RING BOSS ORB MALE RUN TEE is what you're talking about I believe. You maybe able to tighten the nut that seats the o-ring into the fuel pump housing block. If the nut is not loose then try and re-seat the "U" shaped tube. Loosen the clamp that holds the pump to the housing and let it dangle in the air. Then loosen the brass nut that you think is leaking. Move the tube to where you think looks upright from that "T" fitting and tighten brass nut again. I would keep the pump dangling in the air until no leak appears and then place clamp on fuel pump.

[paulhey]

Thanks. Tried that a couple of times to get it lined up. It got better, but did not eliminate the leak. Maybe I can try that a couple more times to get it aligned. 
 

I will say that I did that at least 3-4 times with improving results but still the small leak. 

Is it fickle enough to keep trying?

Note - no such issue the last time I removed and replaced before the new pump. Maybe I just got lucky!

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by paulhey
Clarity

[paulhey]

42 minutes ago, Smooth said:

O-RING BOSS ORB MALE RUN TEE is what you're talking about I believe. You maybe able to tighten the nut that seats the o-ring into the fuel pump housing block. If the nut is not loose then try and re-seat the "U" shaped tube. Loosen the clamp that holds the pump to the housing and let it dangle in the air. Then loosen the brass nut that you think is leaking. Move the tube to where you think looks upright from that "T" fitting and tighten brass nut again. I would keep the pump dangling in the air until no leak appears and then place clamp on fuel pump.

Is there an o-ring, or is it metal on metal? I don't recall seeing an actual rubber o-ring. 

[Smooth]

The slender nut with a washer below it on the housing part should have an o-ring below it. But the brass looking nuts that come from the fuel pump and going to injectors is metal on metal.

[Smooth]

You may need a "flare deburring tool" to get the "U" shaped pipe to seat back onto the male of the "T". Just be careful with metal shavings entering fuel lines after you are done.

[paulhey]

2 minutes ago, Smooth said:

You may need a "flare deburring tool" to get the "U" shaped pipe to seat back onto the male of the "T". Just be careful with metal shavings entering fuel lines after you are done.

Thanks. That is where my thought process started to go - to reflare that end of the line to ensure a good seal. I guess worse case I can rebuild that line. 

[paulhey]

@Smooth or anyone else who may know. 
 

Do you happen to know whether the tee is a 37 or 45 degree flare? I got the part number from Indmar (631108) but cannot figure out what the flare angle is as I look for options on how to get a better seal (flare gasket or other). 
 

Thanks!

[Smooth]

Wow... never known they had different angles on those flares.. lol. It's the threads that always get my a** in trouble. I would almost say the hell with the angle and if the threads match go with it. The deburring tool was not worth it?

[csleaver]

This should be the same fitting:

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Adapters-Fittings/JIC-to-SAE-O-ring/JIC-Male-to-SAE-Male---Tee/JIC-6-Male-x-SAE-6-Male-x-JIC-6-Male-Tee-6804-06-06-06-Adapter-9-6804-6-6-6.axd

[paulhey]

4 hours ago, Smooth said:

Wow... never known they had different angles on those flares.. lol. It's the threads that always get my a** in trouble. I would almost say the hell with the angle and if the threads match go with it. The deburring tool was not worth it?

I'm learning more about flares as fittings than I ever hoped I would! Have not tried anything yet - just using the days until this weekend to figure out the plan(s) o attack. 

[paulhey]

3 hours ago, csleaver said:

This should be the same fitting:

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Adapters-Fittings/JIC-to-SAE-O-ring/JIC-Male-to-SAE-Male---Tee/JIC-6-Male-x-SAE-6-Male-x-JIC-6-Male-Tee-6804-06-06-06-Adapter-9-6804-6-6-6.axd

That helps.  If I'm following things correctly, the JIC-6 is a 37 degree flare. I've found some copper gaskets that I'll probably spend a few bucks on to help ensure we get a good seal. Thx. 

[justgary]

If it truly is a tiny leak, I would consider using a very small dab of aviation shellac on the flare portion only (not the threads), assembling it, and letting it set for a while before filling it with fuel.

[csleaver]

Fuel leaks can be bad news.  If the fittings leak after several attempts, I would probably replace the line and tee.