2004 Wakesetter VLX - Stalling & Surging

[paulhey]

Hi. 

New-to-me boat. Took it out after tuneup. Plugs, rotor, cap, all fluids. Ran great to start. After 3 runs, it started to act up. Almost like it is either missing and/or starved for fuel.  While surfing, it stalled (did not die). Drained the ballasts and drove around the lake to see if it was perhaps cavitation, and after a short run, it started to lurch.  It would go, then try to stall, then go, etc. Throttling up while it was doing this did nothing. Throttle down. Start up again. Would run fine for a few minutes then do it all over again. 
 

Planning a few steps and wanted to see if there was any other advice or guidance. 
 

1) Have mechanic come back out to ensure new rotor/cap not defective. 
 

2) Change fuel filter. Not sure when it was last changed. 
 

3) Check fuel pickup/line for blockage. 
 

4) Don't think the fuel pump has ever been replaced. Maybe it's on its last leg?

Thanks much for any assistance!

Edited June 26, 2022 by paulhey
Changed title to include Wakesetter.

[dtm8119]

Plug wires would be good to do as well not knowing the last time they were done. 

I'd recommend doing the fuel filter and also getting/renting a fuel pressure gauge to check that as well.  It's a tight fit to access the test port.  You're looking for ~60psi at all times

https://www.bakesonline.com/media/resourcelibrary/Indmar_96-06FuelpsiRef.pdf

One more thing you could do - see if you have any fault codes:

 

[formulaben]

On 6/26/2022 at 11:28 AM, paulhey said:

After 3 runs, it started to act up.

How long between the end of the last run and the time you went to start?  Not sure about the 2004 models, but my 2002 has the fuel pump mounted directly to the block and the heat transfer induces vapor lock.  Easy way to test that theory is next time it happens, but ice on the fuel pump for a few minutes and see how it behaves.  You might have the fuel pump inside the fuel tank though...I can't recall what year they switched over to that system.

[paulhey]

34 minutes ago, formulaben said:

How long between the end of the last run and the time you went to start?  Not sure about the 2004 models, but my 2002 has the fuel pump mounted directly to the block and the heat transfer induces vapor lock.  Easy way to test that theory is next time it happens, but ice on the fuel pump for a few minutes and see how it behaves.  You might have the fuel pump inside the fuel tank though...I can't recall what year they switched over to that system.

 

Not long at all. A minute, maybe. The pump is mounted directly to the block. It would be interesting if that is the source of the problem....curious if a new fuel pump is the solution versus ice every time  

Summers are warm here in Florida. 😊

 

[paulhey]

@formulaben Should get at this project in the next week. I got a fuel pressure gauge with a straight attachment. Read in some other posts of yours that the 2004 schrader is hard to get to, maybe need a 90-degree adapter or cut something. Was wondering if you might be able to expand on that. Want to try to keep the number of trips to the store below 5 for this. 

[justgary]

16 hours ago, paulhey said:

@formulaben Should get at this project in the next week. I got a fuel pressure gauge with a straight attachment. Read in some other posts of yours that the 2004 schrader is hard to get to, maybe need a 90-degree adapter or cut something. Was wondering if you might be able to expand on that. Want to try to keep the number of trips to the store below 5 for this. 

I hope that Indmar punished the team that decided to put a decorative flange directly over the Schrader. 

Your best bet is removing the plenum cover so that you can do a nice job of cutting the flange to give you access to the valve with your pressure gauge hose.  The plenum cover is held down by six or eight socket head cap screws.  The gasket is a rubber grommet that is reusable.  Your modification can be as good as you want (e.g. milling a uniform gap in the flange) or as messy as you want (use a hacksaw and break the flange piece away with pliers).  Something in the middle would be great, so maybe use the hacksaw and pliers, then use a file to clean everything up.  A little paint to cover your tracks could help resale later.

Technically, you don't have to remove the plenum cover to do the job, but I would hate to see you cover everything with aluminum chips and leave them on the manifold.

[paulhey]

Got it! Thanks. I plan on following up as I work my way to solve this problem. Plan of attack is fuel first, ignition second. 

[paulhey]

@justgaryBack in town and started to look into this. Is the Schrader valve located on the port side of the engine, just behind the spark plug wires? Appears as though the prior owner had some work done, and there is an area of the plenum that has been worked on and I have pretty ready access to a cap and valve right there. Hoping that's it and I can move into step 2. 

[justgary]

12 hours ago, paulhey said:

@justgaryBack in town and started to look into this. Is the Schrader valve located on the port side of the engine, just behind the spark plug wires? Appears as though the prior owner had some work done, and there is an area of the plenum that has been worked on and I have pretty ready access to a cap and valve right there. Hoping that's it and I can move into step 2. 

Yes, that should be it.

[smarty39]

Had this EXACT issue just a couple weeks ago on my 01' VLX and got around to fixing it a few days ago when I got home. 

After checking a few things and doing a tune up (cap and rotor looked worn, new plugs, etc) we discovered that the fuel pump wasn't actually getting ANY fuel to it even though it was priming.  We then replaced the fuel filter but the old one seemed fine...odd.  Had the bright idea to save me some time by just cracking the fuel line at the top of the fuel pump to see if any fuel was making it's way there.  To my amazement, a HUGE amount of air had built up inside and needed to be bled off.  Tightened it back up and fuel pump primed again but this time sounded as though it actually 'ingested' some fuel.  Turned the key and after a couple cranks she fired right up.

I have no clue how this would've happened and maybe my fuel pump is on it's way out (have a new one on hand now at least).  I think the correct term is vapor lock but again, no idea what would've caused it.  Regardless, try the easy things first.  The more I work on these era boats the more I fall in love, just so easy to work on versus the newer, more electronic engines.

Good luck!

Quote

Quote

 

 

 

[paulhey]

5 hours ago, smarty39 said:

Had this EXACT issue just a couple weeks ago on my 01' VLX and got around to fixing it a few days ago when I got home. 

After checking a few things and doing a tune up (cap and rotor looked worn, new plugs, etc) we discovered that the fuel pump wasn't actually getting ANY fuel to it even though it was priming.  We then replaced the fuel filter but the old one seemed fine...odd.  Had the bright idea to save me some time by just cracking the fuel line at the top of the fuel pump to see if any fuel was making it's way there.  To my amazement, a HUGE amount of air had built up inside and needed to be bled off.  Tightened it back up and fuel pump primed again but this time sounded as though it actually 'ingested' some fuel.  Turned the key and after a couple cranks she fired right up.

I have no clue how this would've happened and maybe my fuel pump is on it's way out (have a new one on hand now at least).  I think the correct term is vapor lock but again, no idea what would've caused it.  Regardless, try the easy things first.  The more I work on these era boats the more I fall in love, just so easy to work on versus the newer, more electronic engines.

Good luck!

 

Thanks for the insight! I'll be sure to report out what I find as I dig into this one. 

[DUKENO1]

As Formulaben mentioned possible vapor lock issue.  I dealt with it on my 2006 for years before I finally took everyone's advice and added the inline low pressure pump.  Have not had a problem sense.  Mine would start and then sputter violently and cut off if we had been sitting for a while.  I could pour a couple bottles of lake water on the fuel pump and it would fire right up.  

[paulhey]

2 hours ago, DUKENO1 said:

As Formulaben mentioned possible vapor lock issue.  I dealt with it on my 2006 for years before I finally took everyone's advice and added the inline low pressure pump.  Have not had a problem sense.  Mine would start and then sputter violently and cut off if we had been sitting for a while.  I could pour a couple bottles of lake water on the fuel pump and it would fire right up.  

The thing that has me questioning whether this is vapor lock or something else is that the symptom isn't that it will not start/operate smoothly after shutting it down and re-starting. It's after some time running under load, and sputters/surges while at speed. If I throttle back, it recovers - never stalling completely. Then, after accelerating again for a bit, it sputters/surges. Never during that would I shut down and try to restart.  We shall see what the investigation shows. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by paulhey
Hit submit too soon

[DUKENO1]

2 hours ago, paulhey said:

The thing that has me questioning whether this is vapor lock or something else is that the symptom isn't that it will not start/operate smoothly after shutting it down and re-starting. It's after some time running under load, and sputters/surges while at speed. If I throttle back, it recovers - never stalling completely. Then, after accelerating again for a bit, it sputters/surges. Never during that would I shut down and try to restart.  We shall see what the investigation shows. 

I hear you ...may totally be something else altogether.   Mine definitely only happened on hot days after being shut off for a while then restarted.  Good luck and keep us posted.

[formulaben]

16 hours ago, paulhey said:

The thing that has me questioning whether this is vapor lock or something else is that the symptom isn't that it will not start/operate smoothly after shutting it down and re-starting. It's after some time running under load, and sputters/surges while at speed. If I throttle back, it recovers - never stalling completely. Then, after accelerating again for a bit, it sputters/surges. Never during that would I shut down and try to restart.  We shall see what the investigation shows. 

Yeah, that's definitely not vapor lock. 

[paulhey]

Alright. Got some data from a lake run today -- just not sure what to make of it. 
 

Hooked up the fuel pressure gauge. 
 

Key on during prime: 59-60

Idle: 59-60 (some "vibration" in reading +/- one or two psi. Meaning the needle was going back and forth at a high frequency.)
 

Full throttle w/ load:  Same. 
 

We then had fun surfing. Around 45 minutes into it, the problem reared it's head. Whether with perfect pass on or manual throttle, it just lost power slowly. Throttle up would not bring it back. It never stalled out. 
 

Bring it back to idle. Go again, and about 3 minutes later, same thing. 
 

We checked the fuel pressure. Prior to it happening, 59-60 (some "vibration" in reading +/- one or two psi. just like at idle and full throttle.)
 

Then, when it happened, the fuel pressure gauge "vibration" was no longer +/- one or two psi -- it was more like the low was at 40 and the high at 80. 
 

Bring it down to idle - solid again plus or minus a couple. And then recreated the surging problem after about 3 minutes of running with a similar swing - 50-70 this time. 
 

I have no idea what that means in terms of what could be causing this -- but I'm hoping the Crew can help!

I have not built my code reader yet - about to order the LEDs now for a delivery tomorrow. 

[BlindSquirrel]

Forgive me if I missed it, but have you changed the fuel pump already? Maybe @Bozboat still has that link handy to the $120 one.

[paulhey]

4 minutes ago, BlindSquirrel said:

Forgive me if I missed it, but have you changed the fuel pump already? Maybe @Bozboat still has that link handy to the $120 one.

@BlindSquirrelNo. I have not changed the fuel pump. Wanted to go through the other troubleshooting steps before replacing the pricier parts. 

[formulaben]

Wouldn't this be a fuel pressure regulator issue?

[BlindSquirrel]

Going off the last lake test results I would lean towards either the regulator or the pump. Both are easy to get to and relatively cheap. You should be able to get a regulator at any auto parts store. My fuel pump is original, but I have a backup ready to go in should it ever quit to not waste a weekend trying to find another. Having a spare is not a bad idea on a 2004 year boat presuming yours is original. The cost for a new pump is just barely more than a half tank of fuel in my truck..

I don't like "throwing parts at it", but if a new regulator doesn't change anything you can take it back.

[paulhey]

Ok. Appreciate the discussion and insight. 
 

Next questions.  It's been a little elusive figuring out what parts are unique to the Indmar versus just standard parts available.  
 

In this case, @BlindSquirrelyou say that the regulator is auto-parts available. What part number or is there a cross reference or something out there that can help with searching?

How about the fuel pump itself?

[BlindSquirrel]

4 minutes ago, paulhey said:

Ok. Appreciate the discussion and insight. 
 

Next questions.  It's been a little elusive figuring out what parts are unique to the Indmar versus just standard parts available.  
 

In this case, @BlindSquirrelyou say that the regulator is auto-parts available. What part number or is there a cross reference or something out there that can help with searching?

How about the fuel pump itself?

Yeah, some parts you can use the automotive version, others need to be marine. Typically the marine parts are to prevent spark or corrosion. If auto versions just search for a 1999 chevy suburban 1500.

Fuel regulator: https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/MPF319711?impressionRank=2

Fuel pump: https://www.highflowfuel.com/qfs-oem-replacement-marine-outboard-electric-fuel-pump-for-indmar-454-7-4l-1984-2021-replaces-52365517/?sku=HFP-706-51701&gclid=Cj0KCQjwlemWBhDUARIsAFp1rLV4KLrhTuEtB1vVp9Eap2zu81o2rF_BMXz4xeOkzjYwAiuEWn7nkRwaAnS8EALw_wcB

If you sign up for email you get 10% off of the pump. 

[formulaben]

Can't believe the deal on that pump...wasn't so long ago the "oem" pump was pushing $500 before they were all out of old stock.

[BlindSquirrel]

Just now, formulaben said:

Can't believe the deal on that pump...wasn't so long ago the "oem" pump was pushing $500 before they were all out of old stock.

Yeah, Boz is the only one I know that got one... but hasn't tried it yet, I don't think. Lifetime warranty??? My spare is a 15 year old oem one... I might replace it with the new one cause it's such a sweet deal!

[paulhey]

Alright! That's great to know. I've been trying to find/ask/crack the code on which engine is the auto equivalent. That is going to be a great help going forward. 
 

Next step - get some parts and see if that fixes it. 
 

Do you know if there is a maintenance manual available? Guess I could get one for the suburban, but maybe you know of one out there for the Indmar, that I'm guessing might include some of the unique boat-motor aspects.