M6 or M5

[klntime]

7 hours ago, 23LSVOwner said:

Personally I would go with the M6 minimum, if for nothing else other than the resale value.

Also, I do not know a single person who has complained wishing they had gotten the smaller engine.

m5 is a great engine and will work well at sea level with the right prop.  Agree, no one complains about a bigger engine!  So if I was custom ordering I'd probably do the M6.  If i was getting a great deal on an in-stock boat with M5 i wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger.

The argument about better resale value with bigger engine.... I just haven't seen that hold much water.  Maybe for the select few real enthusiasts like on this forum.  To the average consumer, most don't even know about the different engine options.  The last boat I sold not a single person asked what size the engine was.  Over 20 inquiries in a few days and never once was engine size brought up.

 

 

 

[Swatski]

4 hours ago, dizzygti said:

They have the same bore spacing.   The blocks are the same size, and they use the same crankshaft.   Only the bore size differs.   GM trucks /= Malibu boats.  Page 82 of Malibu owner's manual states: "The minimum octane requirement for a M-Series engine  is 87 (R+M)/2."    Stop assuming the M5 has different compression, because it doesn't, and your concern goes away.  

compression is... different

Edited August 14, 2023 by Swatski

[teamerickson]

14 hours ago, CaptainMorgan said:

anyone know if T220 has the 2:1?  i see it has a 27" draft so that means 15" prop but not sure about transmission.  either way, just means you'd have a different 'best' prop.

The Acme prop selector tool shows the 1.76:1 ratio for the T220.

[Raimie]

12 hours ago, ahopkins22LSV said:

@Raimie has a T220 with the M5 in it which is probably why the dealer is stating it is perfectly fine. She has had no issues with it. I also have the M5 in our 22LSV and we have no issues.

@MikeR397 I  have a 2022 T220 with the M5. I run the 2277 prop and haven't had any issues with power. Last year I used a 2249 prop but I was burning a lot of fuel running around the lake (big water...lake st. clair). I demoed a T220 with the M6 before ordering mine, but went with the M5 on the order to keep costs at bay and had input from some other owners as well. For loaded down sports...we mostly surf and the m5 absolutely gets it done. We wakeboard a bit but don't load it up as much. Bottom line is PW3 with lift feature buys you some leeway on torque and horsepower.

[Raimie]

6 hours ago, klntime said:

 The last boat I sold not a single person asked what size the engine was.  Over 20 inquiries in a few days and never once was engine size brought up.

 

 

 

But I bet you heard... "how many tower speakers does it have" 19 times lol.

[23LSVOwner]

22 hours ago, Swatski said:

Another advantage of M5? it's big one: my Malibu/Axis dealer mechanic loves those. He tells me the M5s are easier to work on due to being significantly smaller w/more room in the compartment. He cringes on the mere mention of LT4. That's a consideration if you view your purchase as "time on the water" (happy mechanic willing to service my Bu is a wonderful thing). 

Not sure what's beyond M6 - if M6 is "the minimum".  the LT4 is a huge PIA and not something I would opt for in 23/24 or even 25 unless I was lucky enough to boat at high altitude all the time. 

Just an FYI, the M5 and M6 are the exact same physical footprint.

[23LSVOwner]

13 hours ago, Swatski said:

compression is... different

 .5 difference in compression ratio. You are looking at the old LS based 5.3 or something.

 

https://poweredsolutions.gm.com/products/l84-engine/

Also look at the L86.

They are based on these engines from GM.

Edited August 15, 2023 by 23LSVOwner

[dizzygti]

19 hours ago, Swatski said:

compression is... different

I get how one is GM and one isn't....but interesting how we assume one is marketing cut and paste and one is gospel.   

[MikeR397]

17 hours ago, Raimie said:

@MikeR397 I  have a 2022 T220 with the M5. I run the 2277 prop and haven't had any issues with power. Last year I used a 2249 prop but I was burning a lot of fuel running around the lake (big water...lake st. clair). I demoed a T220 with the M6 before ordering mine, but went with the M5 on the order to keep costs at bay and had input from some other owners as well. For loaded down sports...we mostly surf and the m5 absolutely gets it done. We wakeboard a bit but don't load it up as much. Bottom line is PW3 with lift feature buys you some leeway on torque and horsepower.

Very helpful data points! I've decided if I go with a 2024 order on a T220 I'm just going to get the M6 for ~$5500 more and not second guess it, but if the in stock 2023 T220 with an M5 drops cheap enough by November or so (and doesn't sell), I'll be safe going with that instead and save the cash since it's otherwise pretty close to how I'd spec a 2024. That said, I'm not sure if it has demo hours on it and haven't looked it over super close yet. 

Forgive me, is the 2277 prop the standard Axis prop option? I asked my dealer if the M6 and a speed prop would be an ideal combo, and his response was essentially Axis generally didn't recommend the Speed Prop and that he'd still suggest the Standard Prop for me even with an M6. Thoughts? 

BTW, my dad has a cabin cruiser on St. Clair (although he lives in Ohio and commutes every other week to spend time on his boat and visit me). I'm sure we'll trailer the T220 to St. Clair a few times, but I'm on Cass and otherwise would trailer it up to Traverse City area occasionally. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by MikeR397

[teamerickson]

17 minutes ago, MikeR397 said:

Very helpful data points! I've decided if I go with a 2024 order on a T220 I'm just going to get the M6 for ~$5500 more and not second guess it, but if the in stock 2023 T220 with an M5 drops cheap enough by November or so (and doesn't sell), I'll be safe going with that instead and save the cash since it's otherwise pretty close to how I'd spec a 2024. That said, I'm not sure if it has demo hours on it and haven't looked it over super close yet. 

Forgive me, is the 2277 prop the standard Axis prop option? I asked my dealer if the M6 and a speed prop would be an ideal combo, and his response was essentially Axis generally didn't recommend the Speed Prop and that he'd still suggest the Standard Prop for me even with an M6. Thoughts? 

BTW, my dad has a cabin cruiser on St. Clair (although he lives in Ohio and commutes every other week to spend time on his boat and visit me). I'm sure we'll trailer the T220 to St. Clair a few times, but I'm on Cass and otherwise would trailer it up to Traverse City area occasionally. 

I think the standard is 2249. I toggle between 2249 and 2277 (700 ft) on the 2019 A22 with PCM409. Rpms are better with the 2277 for sure, but with a large crew or more elevation the 2249 makes more sense. 

[Raimie]

39 minutes ago, MikeR397 said:

Very helpful data points! I've decided if I go with a 2024 order on a T220 I'm just going to get the M6 for ~$5500 more and not second guess it, but if the in stock 2023 T220 with an M5 drops cheap enough by November or so (and doesn't sell), I'll be safe going with that instead and save the cash since it's otherwise pretty close to how I'd spec a 2024. That said, I'm not sure if it has demo hours on it and haven't looked it over super close yet. 

Forgive me, is the 2277 prop the standard Axis prop option? I asked my dealer if the M6 and a speed prop would be an ideal combo, and his response was essentially Axis generally didn't recommend the Speed Prop and that he'd still suggest the Standard Prop for me even with an M6. Thoughts? 

BTW, my dad has a cabin cruiser on St. Clair (although he lives in Ohio and commutes every other week to spend time on his boat and visit me). I'm sure we'll trailer the T220 to St. Clair a few times, but I'm on Cass and otherwise would trailer it up to Traverse City area occasionally. 

PM about the dealer.

2249 is the standard prop and it was overkill for me. I was burning 9-10 gph with mixed use. With the 2277 i'm sitting around 6-6.5gph. The difference is very noticeable.

[ahopkins22LSV]

So far, about 10 hours I’m also enjoying the 2277 prop over the 2249. I believe the 2277 is the “speed” prop so if you work that into the deal up front they will probably swap it out.

[Swatski]

16 hours ago, 23LSVOwner said:

Just an FYI, the M5 and M6 are the exact same physical footprint.

thank you, I'll check with my guy perhaps I misunderstood his comments

[Swatski]

16 hours ago, 23LSVOwner said:

 .5 difference in compression ratio. You are looking at the old LS based 5.3 or something.

 

https://poweredsolutions.gm.com/products/l84-engine/

Also look at the L86.

They are based on these engines from GM.

I'm looking at GM marine M5 and M6 as in:

On 8/14/2023 at 2:24 PM, ahopkins22LSV said:

From the actual GM website. GM does have an entire marine power train division too that works with all of the marine engine integrators. What they do for each one, if anything, I don’t know but these are the actual specs of the 5.3 and 6.2 from the GM website. As for me, the manual recommends premium fuel so that’s what we use in our M5. The cost difference to me through about 175 hour season doesn’t make sense to me risk anything.
 

5.3: https://poweredsolutions.gm.com/products/l84-engine/

 

6.2: https://poweredsolutions.gm.com/products/l87-engine/

 

[rennis]

21 hours ago, MikeR397 said:

Very helpful data points! I've decided if I go with a 2024 order on a T220 I'm just going to get the M6 for ~$5500 more and not second guess it, but if the in stock 2023 T220 with an M5 drops cheap enough by November or so (and doesn't sell), I'll be safe going with that instead and save the cash since it's otherwise pretty close to how I'd spec a 2024. That said, I'm not sure if it has demo hours on it and haven't looked it over super close yet. 

Forgive me, is the 2277 prop the standard Axis prop option? I asked my dealer if the M6 and a speed prop would be an ideal combo, and his response was essentially Axis generally didn't recommend the Speed Prop and that he'd still suggest the Standard Prop for me even with an M6. Thoughts? 

BTW, my dad has a cabin cruiser on St. Clair (although he lives in Ohio and commutes every other week to spend time on his boat and visit me). I'm sure we'll trailer the T220 to St. Clair a few times, but I'm on Cass and otherwise would trailer it up to Traverse City area occasionally. 

The 2277 is the "Standard" prop when you order the T220 with the M6.  That is how I ordered mine and I have ZERO regrets.  The cost for the upgrade worked out to roughly 4% of total MSRP on the boat and trailer.  100% would do it again and twice on Sunday.  I'm near sea level and my dealer said it was unnecessary.   I didn't care and ordered it how I wanted it.  In addition to making the boat better to own I also think this will help significantly with resale down the road.  It will set the boat apart from many others on the market. 

The boat rockets out of the hole and is just an absolute pleasure to drive. It gets on plane before your buddy can turn his trucker hat backwards.  Cruise speeds are awesome.  You can cruise all day at 30mph+ at reasonable RPMs.  Power everywhere and not just about top speed.  The top speed IS nice (the thing blows the doors off any of my friend's 5.3 or 5.7L boats, and it will hit 44mph on the speedo) but mostly it's about low RPMs while surfing, effortless power no matter how many people are in the boat, great cruising speed, and fun factor.  It's just plain fun to drive with that extra power at all RPMs. 

[dizzygti]

It would be nice if Malibu/Axis would actually publish their prop recommendation/testing results!  That would really make all this easier....

[dizzygti]

1 minute ago, COOP said:

What makes you think they test anything? Lol!

Im still not convinced they test run every boat like they claim.

Yeah, there's that too.   They say they do....and I saw in a video where they were testing at different altitudes and using different props, but it's not like they publish the info.  

[rennis]

On 8/15/2023 at 12:56 PM, teamerickson said:

I think the standard is 2249. I toggle between 2249 and 2277 (700 ft) on the 2019 A22 with PCM409. Rpms are better with the 2277 for sure, but with a large crew or more elevation the 2249 makes more sense. 

the 2249 is my backup/spare prop on the T220.  it works okay but the boat is much happier on the 2277 with the M6.  The numbers would suggest the 2249 would perform better for everything but top-speed but I found that while it decreased top speed it did not noticeably improve surfing RPMs, holeshot, or other toque-sensitive situations.  

Back to the M5/M6 discussion, put the debate into a different context.  Pretend you're buying a muscle car that costs around $100,000, like a Corvette or something.  The base engine is the 5.3.  You can upgrade JUST the motor for about $5k to the 6.2 and you don't have to buy a bunch of other bells and whistles to get the motor upgrade.  That doesn't happen in the automotive world, because you're always buying a bunch of other cosmetic and tech upgrades with the motor package.  That's how they get ya:  They know you want the bigger mill and it's a much more expensive upgrade between model specs almost every time.

But pretend a savvy buyer who doesn't need the additional technology or interior upgrades could order the motor upgrade in the Corvette just by itself.  It's an EASY choice to get the 6.2L in that situation, and 9/10 buyers are doing it.   Why that thought process doesn't translate to boats, which put torque and performance at an even higher premium than cars, truly blows my mind. 

[MikeR397]

Agree. I’ve been waiting 3 years now for a c8 z06/z07 to get that motor upgrade ;). I am a car guy and new to wake boats but it blew me away I could substantially upgrade the motor for only $5500 or so. Hell, that’s the price of a damn clamping board rack vs a Bungie one lol 

Edited August 16, 2023 by MikeR397

[rennis]

2 hours ago, MikeR397 said:

Agree. I’ve been waiting 3 years now for a c8 z06/z07 to get that motor upgrade ;). I am a car guy and new to wake boats but it blew me away I could substantially upgrade the motor for only $5500 or so. Hell, that’s the price of a damn clamping board rack vs a Bungie one lol 

BINGO

[dlb]

Demo’d a M5 bought the M6, never looked back and said “Oops”.

[Nitrousbird]

People:

M5 = GM L83

M6 = GM L86 (not the LT1, sorry to those wanting to "brag" they have the C7 Corvette, 6th Gen Camaro SS engine, though they are super similar and the L86 has a better intake manifold).

The M6 is a clearly superior engine and makes a lot more power across the RPM band.  I would not want an M5.

 

[Swatski]

funny thing is, some of the adamant posters here probably couldn't tell m5 from m6 in a sea trial w/ a T23, the OP boat, without the cover, lol

[rennis]

13 hours ago, Swatski said:

funny thing is, some of the adamant posters here probably couldn't tell m5 from m6 in a sea trial w/ a T23, the OP boat, without the cover, lol

[Swatski]

5 hours ago, rennis said:

 

Yup.

Was that too much...?