Add on boarding ladder help?

[BearCreekBum]

@dalt1 Was there a reason you used brass inserts instead of stainless steel?

[dalt1]

4 hours ago, BearCreekBum said:

@dalt1 Was there a reason you used brass inserts instead of stainless steel?

Easy to find. To be fair, I never looked for stainless. I just did a quick search and do not see the stainless with the same type of exterior threads. I want more width on exterior thread for more bite. The brass 5/16 internal threads are 1/2' deep and is plenty of strength to hold the ladder bolts. Main concern was not pulling out of board.

[justgary]

7 minutes ago, dalt1 said:

Easy to find. To be fair, I never looked for stainless. I just did a quick search and do not see the stainless with the same type of exterior threads. I want more width on exterior thread for more bite. The brass 5/16 internal threads are 1/2' deep and is plenty of strength to hold the ladder bolts. Main concern was not pulling out of board.

I just looked at McMaster-Carr, and they have them in 18-8 stainless... for $4 each!

Less than $0.50 each for brass....

[rx7mann]

dalt1,

I wanted to know what size hardware you used to bolt the ladder to the swim platform?

[dalt1]

27 minutes ago, rx7mann said:

dalt1,

I wanted to know what size hardware you used to bolt the ladder to the swim platform?

5/16 - 18 hex head stainless bolts 3/4" long into the brass inserts.

[rx7mann]

Thank you sir. How is it working out?

[dalt1]

13 minutes ago, rx7mann said:

Thank you sir. How is it working out?

Used it on the water Sunday, very happy how it worked out and operates.

[Infinitysurf]

@dalt1 I am working on this same install right now that you posted pics on (thank you for the pics!). I bought the same brass nutserts you did a few weeks ago thinking that this could work and doing this method would not require drilling thru the entire platform and my pad (which I wanted to avoid) but had hesitated on the install wondering if this would hold and was considering just creating something similar to Catman... I have not done layup work like that previously tho and know it would be an involved process. Seeing that you did this same nutsert process and it held up for your trials...it gave me confidence to move forward on it. I like your idea of hollowing out inside to create a larger area for epoxy....that is the one thing that had stopped me from moving forward before as I was not sure if the theads alone would be enough to hold the ladder longterm and was trying to avoid them pulling out.

Anyway, I drilled all the holes last night (I bought the same ladder you did, so it will have 4 bolts on each side), I "mushroomed" out some of the fibermat (mine is not filled with foam so its a bit harder to get out) at the bottom area of the approx 1" deep holes and later today I plan to fill holes with epoxy and drive in the nutserts. I am thinking that I will coat my stainless bolts with wax and then will also insert them at the same time since the bolts are slightly longer than the nutserts. After some reading....it seems that by coating the stainless with wax, that will prevent the epoxy from sticking to the bolt threads so after it has cured, I can back out the bolts and then install the ladder frame. I am hoping that doing that will help strengthen everything and tie it together as well since then the nutserts has epoxy holding it stiff.... and also each bolt will be held not only by the nutsert threads, but also the +/- 1/4" where the bolt threads into the epoxy base that is mushroomed out. Also planning to put some 3M 4200 on bolt threads before the final install as well as a bead between the platform and the ladder frame to make sure water doesn't get to the inside of the swim platform.

Like you said....if for some reason this does not hold long term (I feel like it will tho), I will use the "Catman" method.

[dalt1]

2 minutes ago, Infinitysurf said:

@dalt1 I am working on this same install right now that you posted pics on (thank you for the pics!). I bought the same brass nutserts you did a few weeks ago thinking that this could work and doing this method would not require drilling thru the entire platform and my pad (which I wanted to avoid) but had hesitated on the install wondering if this would hold and was considering just creating something similar to Catman... I have not done layup work like that previously tho and know it would be an involved process. Seeing that you did this same nutsert process and it held up for your trials...it gave me confidence to move forward on it. I like your idea of hollowing out inside to create a larger area for epoxy....that is the one thing that had stopped me from moving forward before as I was not sure if the theads alone would be enough to hold the ladder longterm and was trying to avoid them pulling out.

Anyway, I drilled all the holes last night (I bought the same ladder you did, so it will have 4 bolts on each side), I "mushroomed" out some of the fibermat (mine is not filled with foam so its a bit harder to get out) at the bottom area of the approx 1" deep holes and later today I plan to fill holes with epoxy and drive in the nutserts. I am thinking that I will coat my stainless bolts with wax and then will also insert them at the same time since the bolts are slightly longer than the nutserts. After some reading....it seems that by coating the stainless with wax, that will prevent the epoxy from sticking to the bolt threads so after it has cured, I can back out the bolts and then install the ladder frame. I am hoping that doing that will help strengthen everything and tie it together as well since then the nutserts has epoxy holding it stiff.... and also each bolt will be held not only by the nutsert threads, but also the +/- 1/4" where the bolt threads into the epoxy base that is mushroomed out. Also planning to put some 3M 4200 on bolt threads before the final install as well as a bead between the platform and the ladder frame to make sure water doesn't get to the inside of the swim platform.

Like you said....if for some reason this does not hold long term (I feel like it will tho), I will use the "Catman" method.

I used Vasoline on the bolts before installing the inserts for the same reason. Remember to install inserts upside down to let the screwdriver slot help cut it's way in.(I think that probably helped ) My epoxy putty filler was getting stiff when I drove the inserts. I packed the hole full just before inserting them. If you let it set rock hard, I don't know how the inserts would go in.(would have to drill the JB Weld putty out to 3/8")  Took a good amount of pressure to get them to bite (Push hard) but once they started I drove them till the install bolt I had in the 5/16" threads bottomed out.

My platform under side also had a lip (hump) toward the outer edge which is where my end bolts landed. I filled between the ladder mount steel and the platform with the same epoxy putty (During final bolt up) to take up the gap that created along the mount surface from front to back. (Gap approx 1/8") After all that set up, I sealed around all bolts and full perimeters of the 2 mount steels which is also probably adding adhesive strength, but mainly to keep water out of the core. Although I doubt the ones dealer puts on are sealed very thoroughly.

Also, if the inserts are not perfectly square going in, (they won't be too far off) I drilled my clearance holes on the ladder out 1/32" more to assist in the lineup. They were very snug on the bolt as shipped.

I bet I took that ladder apart 8 times before I got done.

Good Luck! Send Pics.

[dalt1]

@Infinitysurf How thick was the surface when you drilled it? Mine probably not more than 3/16" maybe 1/4" 

[Infinitysurf]

22 minutes ago, dalt1 said:

@Infinitysurf How thick was the surface when you drilled it? Mine probably not more than 3/16" maybe 1/4" 

Mine appears to be about roughly 3/16" before hitting the softer inside filler which is a white substance with fibers in it (unsure of what exactly it is but it is tough to get small chunks out of the bottom since its all bound together with those fibers, I spent at least an hour slowly prying away small chunks and then sucking them out with shopvac). I am unable to post pics or I would. Because my fiberglass is fairly thin... I decided to only mushroom out the very bottom area of the holes I drilled since I was worried about the nutsert not staying level while the epoxy cured. I hope that does not end up biting me later.... but that is also the main reason I also wanted my bolts to thread partially into the epoxy bed after going thru the nutsert. I am using 1" long stainless hex head bolts rather than 3/4". I have approx 1 1/8" total depth before I hit the hard surface which is the bottom of the swim platform. So once the bolt has a washer and goes thru the ladder frame, it should extend past the nutsert approx 1/4 - 5/16" into the epoxy bed.

[dalt1]

@Infinitysurf I cut the head off a nail and bent an L shape to it about 3/8" leg. Chucked it in my drill and stuck it in the 3/8" hole I already drilled. Cranked the drill up to core out the foam in mine. Might be different with your stringy stuff.

The nutsert was definitely engaged into the thin fiberglass on mine. It was not moving anywhere after insertion.

[Infinitysurf]

On 5/9/2020 at 6:15 PM, dalt1 said:

@Infinitysurf I cut the head off a nail and bent an L shape to it about 3/8" leg. Chucked it in my drill and stuck it in the 3/8" hole I already drilled. Cranked the drill up to core out the foam in mine. Might be different with your stringy stuff.

The nutsert was definitely engaged into the thin fiberglass on mine. It was not moving anywhere after insertion.

That was a great idea with the bent nail!

I found a router bit that I was able to put in my drill and do a bit more thorough job, I removed enough material so the epoxy would also cure around the bottom half of the nutsert. Between that router bit (it helped to carve into the stringy pieces so I could remove them with a special pick and a shop vacuum). Everything turned out perfect on mine....I came on to post some pics as I have always been able to do that on PN, for some reason tho I am only getting the option to insert an image from a URL tho and and unable to post pics at the moment. 

I ended up filling each hole with epoxy and then inserting the nutserts....then I took my 1" stainless bolts and rolled them in some wax and then threaded them thru the nutsert and into the epoxy. The following day, I removed the stainless bolts and the epoxy had cured perfectly around the bolts so the threads now continue thru the nutsert and into the epoxy which in my head is better since it ties everything together. The swim ladder feels VERY solid, I am super happy with how this turned out! Really appreciate your quick responses and pictures, they helped me come up with the final ideas for this. Once I can post pics....I will put up the details of my install as well tho except for the bolts extending into the epoxy, I think our installs where done very similar.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Infinitysurf

[dalt1]

On 5/9/2020 at 5:15 PM, dalt1 said:

@Infinitysurf I cut the head off a nail and bent an L shape to it about 3/8" leg. Chucked it in my drill and stuck it in the 3/8" hole I already drilled. Cranked the drill up to core out the foam in mine. Might be different with your stringy stuff.

The nutsert was definitely engaged into the thin fiberglass on mine. It was not moving anywhere after insertion.

[blk93jeepzj]

3 minutes ago, Infinitysurf said:

I came on to post some pics as I have always been able to do that on PN, for some reason tho I am only getting the option to insert an image from a URL tho and and unable to post pics at the moment. 

Looks like you are a member and not a supporter.  Did your membership lapse?

[Infinitysurf]

2 minutes ago, blk93jeepzj said:

Looks like you are a member and not a supporter.  Did your membership lapse?

I don't think I was ever a paid supporter. Maybe there is a limit to how many pics you can post as a member and I already exceeded that....

[dalt1]

4 minutes ago, Infinitysurf said:

That was a great idea with the bent nail!

I found a router bit that I was able to put in my drill and do a bit more thorough job, I removed enough material so the epoxy would also cure around the bottom half of the nutsert. Between that router bit (it helped to carve into the stringy pieces so I could remove them with a special pick and a shop vacuum). Everything turned out perfect on mine....I came on to post some pics as I have always been able to do that on PN, for some reason tho I am only getting the option to insert an image from a URL tho and and unable to post pics at the moment. 

I ended up filling each hole with epoxy and then inserting the nutserts....then I took my 1" stainless bolts and rolled them in some wax and then threaded them thru the nutsert and into the epoxy. The following day, I removed the stainless bolts and the epoxy had cured perfectly around the bolts so the threads not continue thru the nutsert and into the epoxy which in my head is better since it ties everything together. The swim ladder feels VERY solid, I am super happy with how this turned out! Really appreciate your quick responses and pictures, they helped me come up with the final ideas for this. Once I can post pics....I will put up the details of my install as well tho except for the bolts extending into the epoxy, I think our installs where done very similar.

So you inserted the inserts while the epoxy was still soft? I did that and left my screws in also till it set up. Wonder if you filled the holes and let it set up then redrilled the epoxy to 3/8", if you could still drive the inserts in after it was hardened? You wouldn't have the extra treads in the epoxy that way.

 

[dalt1]

2 minutes ago, Infinitysurf said:

I don't think I was ever a paid supporter. Maybe there is a limit to how many pics you can post as a member and I already exceeded that....

I think we just saved you $300 to $400 not to have to buy a new swim platform pad. I don't mind supporting even though I could get all this information without it.

[Infinitysurf]

Yes, immediately after filling the pre-drilled hole with epoxy, I drove in the nutsert while it was all still soft.... then I also coated the bolt with some wax so I would be able to remove it after the epoxy hardened... and also inserted the bolt so the epoxy would cure around the bolt threads. About 12hrs later when hardened, I backed out all the bolts. Then that evening I used some 3M 4200 sealant around the nutserts to prevent water intrusion (as well as a small bead where the ladder frame and swim platform would meet and installed the swim ladder frame permanently.

The following day I tested the whole setup and it felt very solid. I even bounced up/down on it a bit (I am about 190lbs) just to be sure if it was going to easily break free.... I wanted it too happen in my garage and not while on the water.

On that swim ladder.... I did replace the existing stainless bolts holding the 2) black plastic end cap piece together (1 bolt had all the threads stripped in the middle when I got it), I also added a 2nd silicone washer to the factory one to take a little of the slop out of the ladder inside the frame.

[Infinitysurf]

5 minutes ago, dalt1 said:

I think we just saved you $300 to $400 not to have to buy a new swim platform pad. I don't mind supporting even though I could get all this information without it.

You are right about that.... however I am way too OCD to have ever bolted thru the platform, even if covered with a new pad after the fact.

My 2nd option would be taking the time to glass in some stainless metal strips....which is still an idea off this thread 

[dalt1]

3 minutes ago, Infinitysurf said:

Yes, immediately after filling the pre-drilled hole with epoxy, I drove in the nutsert while it was all still soft.... then I also coated the bolt with some wax so I would be able to remove it after the epoxy hardened... and also inserted the bolt so the epoxy would cure around the bolt threads. About 12hrs later when hardened, I backed out all the bolts. Then that evening I used some 3M 4200 sealant around the nutserts to prevent water intrusion (as well as a small bead where the ladder frame and swim platform would meet and installed the swim ladder frame permanently.

The following day I tested the whole setup and it felt very solid. I even bounced up/down on it a bit (I am about 190lbs) just to be sure if it was going to easily break free.... I wanted it too happen in my garage and not while on the water.

On that swim ladder.... I did replace the existing stainless bolts holding the 2) black plastic end cap piece together (1 bolt had all the threads stripped in the middle when I got it), I also added a 2nd silicone washer to the factory one to take a little of the slop out of the ladder inside the frame.

We basically have the same install, thinking we are GOOD!

[blk93jeepzj]

11 minutes ago, dalt1 said:

I think we just saved you $300 to $400 not to have to buy a new swim platform pad. I don't mind supporting even though I could get all this information without it.

@Infinitysurf I think what @dalt1 was hinting at, is with the savings of not having to purchase a new swim platform pad, you should become a supporting member......

[JBL78]

Any updates after using the nutsert install? Thinking about doing this on my 2020 21VLX.

Edited June 1, 2020 by JBL78

[dalt1]

Been out last 3 or 4 weekends and it's getting a workout. Still hanging in there. I am not concerned in the mount strength. Mine is not going anywhere.

@Infinitysurf You been able to use yours yet?

[Infinitysurf]

17 hours ago, dalt1 said:

Been out last 3 or 4 weekends and it's getting a workout. Still hanging in there. I am not concerned in the mount strength. Mine is not going anywhere.

@Infinitysurf You been able to use yours yet?

Mine has been rock steady, been out twice now with it