Factory Sub Enhancements

[Murphy8166]

4 hours ago, David said:

Admittedly I'm at a disadvantage not having my hands in a '19 BU. So for now based on IXFE's info let's assume that the OE woofer is the REVO 12 HP. While the JL Audio 12W3 is my favorite subwoofer in that power class, I agree with MLA, that surface area rules and the difference between one good subwoofer and another of the same size isn't going to be large enough to warrant changing out the subwoofer driver. The Wetsounds is a pretty good and workable subwoofer, so I'd be sticking with it. By the numbers. For an optimum sealed enclosure of 1.125 cu.ft. net internal after driver displacement, and using 0.75" material construction, you'll need an external enclosure in the area of 2950 cu.in. (or about 1.7 cu.ft.). Just guessing, but I suspect that the size of the factory enclosure falls way short, and if it's a polymer-based construction, then I don't trust the seal. Ported? If you are challenged to insert a larger enclosure, then the proper bass-reflex enclosure could be 60 to 70% larger than the proper sealed version. Guessing that keeps you running a sealed 12". Nothing wrong with that. The enclosure and the inability to tune the factory amplifier seem to be the two largest obstacles in achieving better bass. No value in replacing strengths. Just concentrate on the weakest links.        

Great Info Dave!  For not having you hands on a 19' you are pretty spot on about what is going on with the current setup and the limitations at play.

[Orangemxz]

I have a 2019 on order.  I went with the factory sub to get the factory grill, woofer, cut out etc.  My plan is to swap the dsp's for two old style tunable syn 6 right away.  I'm gonna use one for the in boats and one for the sub and 2 rev 10s.  If the box is anything like the one on my 2015 it will need replacing for sure.  I am wondering if a box could be cut and slid through the opening in the bow and glued up inside the compartment?  Seems like if slid in diagonally if I get the box dimensions perfect I could get a reasonable sealed box in.  Anyone have any opinions on this?

[Murphy8166]

The box is not coming out in one piece - no matter how you twist or turn it.  It is polymer and screws and If I had to bet, you can remove the screws and pull it out in a couple pieces.  If the polymer is bonded you could easily cut it out with a small saw.

There is no way possible that you will get an enclosure into the opening for a 12" woofer.  You could potentially assemble inside the cavity but that sounds like a miserable experience and it will be that much harder to get the seams lined up and air tight.

Again that opening is less than 13.5" x 13.5" which is the smallest side you can have for a enclosure with a 12" woofer. 

It sounds so much easier to open the existing hole up by an 1" to 1.5" and put a nice sealed enclosure under the dash...fab up nice trim ring to sit against the fiberglass with the factory billet grill on top.

 

 

[wdr]

1 hour ago, Murphy8166 said:

I hate to break it to you but the opening is much smaller than 18" x 18" access hole.  I know for fact it is more like 13" x 13"  That's not even big enough to slide a sealed enclosure thru with 13.5" x 13.5" face which is about as small as you can go with a 12" woofer.

I was being optimistic for the sake of the discussion. 😊 I already had plans for that waste of space. And if the sub box is assembled like previous sub boxes, it is put together with 1 1/4” SS staples every inch and SS screws. That is going to be a significant emotional event getting that thing disassembled and out a 13” x 13” hole!

[Murphy8166]

Ha! I have spent a lot of time thinking about this project.  Even started out with some calculations using the Pythagorean theory...

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with!!

[minnmarker]

2 hours ago, Murphy8166 said:

How in the world do you mount a 12" sub into a box that has a dimension of 11"....  

The mounting diameter in the specs is 11 inches.  Sorry, I'm a  inch off. 12 x 12

[IXFE]

8 hours ago, David said:

Admittedly I'm at a disadvantage not having my hands in a '19 BU. So for now based on IXFE's info let's assume that the OE woofer is the REVO 12 HP. While the JL Audio 12W3 is my favorite subwoofer in that power class, I agree with MLA, that surface area rules and the difference between one good subwoofer and another of the same size isn't going to be large enough to warrant changing out the subwoofer driver. The Wetsounds is a pretty good and workable subwoofer, so I'd be sticking with it. By the numbers. For an optimum sealed enclosure of 1.125 cu.ft. net internal after driver displacement, and using 0.75" material construction, you'll need an external enclosure in the area of 2950 cu.in. (or about 1.7 cu.ft.). Just guessing, but I suspect that the size of the factory enclosure falls way short, and if it's a polymer-based construction, then I don't trust the seal. Ported? If you are challenged to insert a larger enclosure, then the proper bass-reflex enclosure could be 60 to 70% larger than the proper sealed version. Guessing that keeps you running a sealed 12". Nothing wrong with that. The enclosure and the inability to tune the factory amplifier seem to be the two largest obstacles in achieving better bass. No value in replacing strengths. Just concentrate on the weakest links.        

Respectfully disagree...

I think about it this way. When contemplating factory sub enhancement, there are three potential points of improvement:

1) amp - dsp, factory tune, yada yada. New amp (even the same amp) removes those restrictions. I think we all agree on that.

2) driver - not all are identical even in the same power class (ie each has unique sound characteristics causing a user who has experience with BOTH to prefer one over another). In my experience, two subs from the same power class in identical enclosures with identical power could still sound different causing a listener to prefer one over the other. I’m also of the opinion that the factory sub is a bit of a lightweight. 

3) enclosure - despite assurances given on this very forum (by those who designed it) that it’s right sized and completely sealed, all evidence points to the contrary. I personally didn’t have an issue with mine leaking, but others have. And it is a bit on the small size, which can be addressed with polyfoam.  Is that ideal?  Of course not. But is it a way to maximize within the constraints given? I think so. It’s a known method discussed on many audio forums where folks want to get the most out of a small factory sub/enclosure.  If there’s a better idea (short of rip and replace) I’m all ears.

Point is... just because an area isn’t the most glaring weakness (ie driver), doesn’t mean I can’t still achieve incremental improvement. At a minimum, having a driver I prefer with proper power & tune behind it should sound better (to me) than the factory amp/sub in the same enclosur.  I’m simply taking a “real world” approach to this. I’m directly attacking the two points of improvement (amp + sub) that DONT require major surgery on the boat or alter the factory look. On the enclosure  (where NOBODY to date has been willing to rip and replace), I’m doing what little I can to enhance what Malibu and their audio supplier have designed for me.

I hope that makes sense and helps the OP. 

EDIT: Here’s a pic of the hole we're talking about. 

Edited March 7, 2019 by IXFE

[IXFE]

2 hours ago, wdr said:

And if the sub box is assembled like previous sub boxes, it is put together with 1 1/4” SS staples every inch and SS screws. 

 

3 hours ago, Orangemxz said:

 If the box is anything like the one on my 2015 it will need replacing for sure.  

 

These two statements as well as comments by David and MLA make me wonder if folks are aware of the newer style enclosures in the 2017+ Malibus.  This page of an old thread is a good read to help level set what type of construction we’re talking about. In short, don’t assume it’s like the enclosure in your older Malibus. 

 

 

[David]

You don't need to speculate. Here's what we know for certain. Just the facts.

It's easy to test the loaded enclosure to find whether or not it is sealed. Does the driver exhibit increased resistance to being pushed in past a certain point (like a filled basketball) or does it continue to move in to the limits of its mechanical suspension. Once pushed in does the driver spring back to center similar to the way it would outside of a box or does it return to center in a retarded manner. So test it. You'll have a concrete answer.  

Acoustic suspension (small sealed box), 70 year old patent, PLUS the Thiele/Small Parameters, 50 year old technology, provided by all subwoofer manufacturers, PLUS computer enclosure modeling software, around for the past 40 years, EQUALS, we can predict the subwoofer/enclosure behavior with precision accuracy. Thank goodness we don't have to guess, or endlessly trial & error . We already know what size of enclosure will yield a target 'Qtc' for this particular driver (the right balance of low frequency extension and liveliness, in other words, the musicality). So all you have to do is measure the box, subtract the construction material, and subtract the driver displacement. The 12" driver displacement in this case shouldn't be more than .075 cu.ft. and we are looking for a net internal volume of 1.125 to 1.25 cu.ft. Really easy math. Just measure the darn box.

If the enclosure is at least 0.9 net internal cu.ft. (too small, but...) then based on Isothermal Propagation (heat conduction & dissipation) you can loosely pack and completely fill an enclosure with damping material for no more than a 20% increase in effective volume...with some loss of efficiency.

Despite differences in subwoofer drivers of the same size and build class, the final behavior of the subwoofer, in all things perceived and measured, will be 'mostly' determined by the loaded driver/enclosure combination. Once loaded the resonance may double, the Qts to Qtc may double, etc, etc. The best subwoofer in a misaligned enclosure can easily be outperformed by an inferior driver in a well-tuned enclosure.      

 

[Chrisjjbrown]

9 hours ago, IXFE said:

Respectfully disagree...

I think about it this way. When contemplating factory sub enhancement, there are three potential points of improvement:

1) amp - dsp, factory tune, yada yada. New amp (even the same amp) removes those restrictions. I think we all agree on that.

2) driver - not all are identical even in the same power class (ie each has unique sound characteristics causing a user who has experience with BOTH to prefer one over another). In my experience, two subs from the same power class in identical enclosures with identical power could still sound different causing a listener to prefer one over the other. I’m also of the opinion that the factory sub is a bit of a lightweight. 

3) enclosure - despite assurances given on this very forum (by those who designed it) that it’s right sized and completely sealed, all evidence points to the contrary. I personally didn’t have an issue with mine leaking, but others have. And it is a bit on the small size, which can be addressed with polyfoam.  Is that ideal?  Of course not. But is it a way to maximize within the constraints given? I think so. It’s a known method discussed on many audio forums where folks want to get the most out of a small factory sub/enclosure.  If there’s a better idea (short of rip and replace) I’m all ears.

Point is... just because an area isn’t the most glaring weakness (ie driver), doesn’t mean I can’t still achieve incremental improvement. At a minimum, having a driver I prefer with proper power & tune behind it should sound better (to me) than the factory amp/sub in the same enclosur.  I’m simply taking a “real world” approach to this. I’m directly attacking the two points of improvement (amp + sub) that DONT require major surgery on the boat or alter the factory look. On the enclosure  (where NOBODY to date has been willing to rip and replace), I’m doing what little I can to enhance what Malibu and their audio supplier have designed for me.

I hope that makes sense and helps the OP. 

EDIT: Here’s a pic of the hole we're talking about. 

That looks like a miserable experience getting that box out of there...… hard pass.

[Sparky450]

13 hours ago, Murphy8166 said:

It sounds so much easier to open the existing hole up by an 1" to 1.5" and put a nice sealed enclosure under the dash...fab up nice trim ring to sit against the fiberglass with the factory billet grill on top. 

This is so easy to  do. If a person, can build a box, the trim piece is easy and will look factory. Hardest thing here would be to move the heater for the bigger box,if needed.

This whole stereo thing blows my mind. We know the stock sub does not perform in the enclosure it is in. We know the REVO 12 is a proven sub. (If that is what it is, others here seem to know). I have no experience with a REVO 12 in a sealed box , but I will assume the REVO 12 will perform well in a proper sealed enclosure. I know that the ported REVO 12 in my 07 rocked the boat, even to my standards.  There is some "EXPERT" advice being given here, that people really should listen to.

I thought about going with SP1 and a sub for the integration. After the CFO and I talked about it we opted for stereo delete because of transient noise in the system, and the cost of the factory system. The only thing we lose is integration. Any reputable stereo shop will warranty the product/work. We still have a master volume knob right next to the factory Sport Knob. We have EASY accessibility to zone control through a WS220, at our fingertips. (We both hate going to screens for zone control. We even have a WS220 on the HB, because we wanted easy volume and zone accessibility). We have a head unit that we can CORD CONNECT (Yes this is important for quality sound) to our Iphones.  The EQ is hidden out of site. (As, IMO a properly tuned system, should never have the EQ settings changed). Last thing I want is someone thinking they know better, than the PROFESSIONAL installer, with proper equipment, to tune the system.

Option #2 for us:  (From what I have read, This will work)--SP1 with a sub. We would then remove and throw away the factory amps. Install Exile Cables, Replace the amps with whatever(We prefer Arc Audio, all amps are not the same), rebuild the sub box, add towers w/amp, and tune. That should be a system that will outperform 99% of the other systems on the water, and still have factory integration. However, when this build is complete with factory system, and rebuild, We would have been very close (dollar wise) to where we will be with a full custom system. And that is paying normal price for equipment and installation.

A person could also pick and choose what they want, from Option #2, to fit budget and needs.

In any case, Our stereo would be tuned by a professional shop with the right equipment. Not by someones ear saying that sounds good.(This is hard to find, even with a shop, human error is to say, I can do it just as good by ear)  

As I stated, I have no experience with the factory systems. If Option #2 will not work, somebody please correct me. I will delete it.

FWIW--- I have posted my experience so as to help others make the decision that is right for them.

NOW IF ONLY THE RAIN WOULD BE DONE SO WE CAN BE ON THE WATER!!!

[Murphy8166]

For those interested in porting a box for REVO specs - I have some hard numbers on box volume and port info using an round port from precision port.  These came directly from Wetsounds a few years back.  I will post them tonight. 

[MLA]

Just keep in mind, that the precision port has a nearly 7" dia flared outlet. This will effect the height, width or both, of the baffle wall. You can skip the flared outlet, but the look is not as clean. 

[Orangemxz]

This is all great info I def appreciate it.  I have the tunable syn 6's so that's already happening for sure.  I know the opening from the kick panel is only about 13" at most but isn't the opening from behind the starboard side bow seat bigger than 13"? It certainly looks that way.   At least diagonally you should be able to get at least a 15" piece in there right? I would think getting the old box out would be easy.  I have the tools to make light work of that.

[Slurpee]

18 minutes ago, Orangemxz said:

This is all great info I def appreciate it.  I have the tunable syn 6's so that's already happening for sure.  I know the opening from the kick panel is only about 13" at most but isn't the opening from behind the starboard side bow seat bigger than 13"? It certainly looks that way.   At least diagonally you should be able to get at least a 15" piece in there right? I would think getting the old box out would be easy.  I have the tools to make light work of that.

I for one would love to see your ship in a bottle method work out. But having crawled around in a few of the newer 2 piece hull models I have one piece of wisdom. Don’t bother planning how you’re going to do it until you have a boat you can sit in and stare at with a drink in hand for a few hours figuring it out. You can always cut bigger holes and really do a fancy job finishing it out.

Just wait till the drink wears off before you go fetch the tools. 

And mock it up with rigid cardboard first and practice assembly inside the space and out. 

[Ronnie]

Ship in a bottle = perfect analogy. 

[dalt1]

If you want to use the access hole behind the bow seat, it's no bigger. Usable opening is going to be right at 12" x 12". It is not a square hole with one side measuring 13"                                                                                                                                      a

[dalt1]

Just now, dalt1 said:

If you want to use the access hole behind the bow seat, it's no bigger. Usable opening is going to be right at 12" x 12". It is not a square hole with one side measuring 13"                                                                                                                                      a

The factory hole does not have the extra structure that I have added around the perimeter. That is to support my extended storage compartment that I added.

[Sparky450]

And of course if you order a heater,  with stereo delete, they install the heater right where the sub goes

[dalt1]

On 3/9/2019 at 10:57 AM, Sparky450 said:

And of course if you order a heater,  with stereo delete, they install the heater right where the sub goes

Where is the heater when you have factory sub? Been looking for a pic of that for a while now.

[TexasTurner]

Here was my solution (done by a marine stereo installer)

WS Sub in a ported box with an LED cover over the larger hole.

Sounds good. No rattling anymore.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by TexasTurner