MC owner looking at new Malibu

[agarabaghi]

$68k for a nxt22 is a good deal, i think that is a huge factor. 

 

[hunter77ah]

5 minutes ago, TenTwentyOne said:

 

I could agree all day long on a bunch of reasons why I think a 22VLX is a better pick than a NXT22..... the stringer system is definitely not one of them. I don’t know who told you that the NXT has just foam stringers, but that is not at all accurate.

Every MC, including the NXT line, has a full grid stringer system. It supports the full length of the boat, and includes lateral support as well. I am sorry, but this is one thing that MC definitely does better than Bu...... on every model. Notice how you have never heard of a MC dropping a center windshield in many, many years? You can thank the ridiculously rigid stringer system for that.

I don’t really get the NXT line either, and when my brother in-law decided he wanted to upgrade from his Mondo, it was not the boat i recommended. I must have gone on 10 different demos with him, and he didn’t even hesitate on the decision to go with a NXT22. He loved that it felt more roomy than the others, it was super simple to set up, easy to balance for wake boarding, and surfed well stock. I wasn’t blown away with it, but he added 500lbs if lead in the middle of the boat, and bumped the speed to 11.2, and I was amazed at the difference.  Didn’t hurt that it was well optioned for $68k either.

Either way......... let’s not forget that the OP isn’t looking at a NXT........he is looking at a XT22. That is a completely different animal than the NXT22.

I went to the factory the week of the 20th and the MC rep told me this.  I don’t make this stuff up.  It was one of the differentiating factors between the nxt and xt/x series.  It is not a fiberglass stringer system. 

My sole point was that the vlx is a major step up. 

[67King]

10 minutes ago, hunter77ah said:

I went to the factory the week of the 20th and the MC rep told me this.  I don’t make this stuff up.  It was one of the differentiating factors between the nxt and xt/x series.  It is not a fiberglass stringer system. 

My sole point was that the vlx is a major step up. 

I would be inclined to guess that it is a foam core.  Very common in composites manufacturing.  You cut a piece of foam the shape you want, wrap it in the fiber of your choice, vacuum bag it, and you have a really nice part.  Most common/easiest example is a wing.  I want to think that the typical MC has corrugated shaped stringers, but I could be mistaken.  

[TenTwentyOne]

1 hour ago, hunter77ah said:

I went to the factory the week of the 20th and the MC rep told me this.  I don’t make this stuff up.  It was one of the differentiating factors between the nxt and xt/x series.  It is not a fiberglass stringer system. 

My sole point was that the vlx is a major step up. 

 

I think the rep confused you with the two processes. 

On the NXT, they have precut foam pieces that are epoxied to the hull, and then wrapped with several layers fiberglass. The foam is simply used as a form for the fiberglass stringer grid. On the XT, and X series, they have premade stringer structures that are epoxied in, and then filled with foam after they have cured into place.

i have also been to the factory. As well as Bu and SC.......... every single year since 2011. And I have seen them hand rolling the glass layers on the stringers in an NXT on more than one occasion.

 

@agarabaghi - It was a nationwide promotion at that price...... he could have bought one anywhere for that price. Admittedly, this one had a couple options that weren’t part of the promo (Heater and tower speakers), that he got included in the deal.

[agarabaghi]

what engine? the 5000? 

When i was shopping around the boat show prices for the nxt 22 (2018) were absurd. And the models they had on the floor jsut didnt do it for me, the vinly seems to have remained the same since 2015 (prob not but seemed like it) but for that price i would have been a contender as my T23 was only $1k more but its a much bigger boat with a (personal preference) better wake and wave stock 

[TenTwentyOne]

22 minutes ago, agarabaghi said:

what engine? the 5000? 

When i was shopping around the boat show prices for the nxt 22 (2018) were absurd. And the models they had on the floor jsut didnt do it for me, the vinly seems to have remained the same since 2015 (prob not but seemed like it) but for that price i would have been a contender as my T23 was only $1k more but its a much bigger boat with a (personal preference) better wake and wave stock 

IIRC, I think the 5000 was the only available engine in the NXT series until this year, but I definitely could be wrong about that. Either way, that is the motor his has, and it has plenty of power for that boat.

Not sure on the prices you saw at boat shows, but it was a nationwide advertised program. Boat, trailer, swivel racks, 4” screen and zero off, bimini, cover, carpet, gen2, and plug and play ballast. 

I think they have it going on for this year as well. Same package, but $69,900 now......

He looked at a T23 as well. It performed awesome, but he wasn’t a fan of the asthetics (subjective), and also didn’t like how hot the vinyl was. Other than those little things, I think that was top of his list as well.

Edited August 11, 2018 by TenTwentyOne

[IXFE]

2 hours ago, TenTwentyOne said:

Either way......... let’s not forget that the OP isn’t looking at a NXT........he is looking at a XT22. That is a completely different animal than the NXT22.

This statement to me proves @Fman‘s point about lost identity. Why is the NT22 a completely different animal than the NXT22?  Seems every MC is a completely different animal than all the others in their lineup. Wakes and waves are hit or miss, require unique setups, etc. 

One of the things I really like about Malibu / Axis is the how “user friendly” the wakes & waves are, and how CONSISTENT they are from model to model. Subtle differences for sure, but seriously, put on a blindfold and tell me the difference between a 22 VLX wave and 23 LSV wave.  You’re a liar if you think you can.  From my first surfgate boat (13 21 VLX) to my biggest (17 25 LSV) and all in between the shape and wave characteristics were basically identical, and weight setup, speed, wedge position, etc was largely the same.  Only difference was size as boat gets bigger/heavier  

Most boat companies have a certain “design language” when it comes to interior and exterior design.  MC has the curved rubrail. Nautique has the big bloated look with Supras old tower and a giant eagle sticker (only kidding, of course). Malibu definitely has their own look too, but what I really like is that they seem to be the one of the only boat companies that has a consistent “design language” around their running surface and wave making technology. 

Last time I was at the factory I actually had a cool convo with Richie Anderson about their philosophy around running surface design. In short, less is more. 

[TenTwentyOne]

@IXFE I think that’s a good point, and I agree that MC launched their fair share of finicky hulls. They have seemed to finally get it, and drop all the deep Vs. 

That is certainly one thing you can count on with Bu. Consistent wakes and waves that really only vary in size. There is a downside to that design philosophy as well though..... you can count on the shape of your wave, but you can also count on needing a dump truck in the bow (unless it’s a 25 footer), and only the goofy wave will be an exceptional surf style wave, with a well defined lip. And even then, they aren’t as good as a lot of other boats if you are looking for that type of wave. (Lots aren’t)

Sometimes that doesn’t matter to a lot of people, especially if they are primarily skim rider, but it’s still a well known characteristic of a Bu wave that a lot of people complain about. So, while not trying new things has its advantages, it also has disadvantages.

Every time the VLX, or 23LSV gets a redesign, it is stated that it no longer needs a bow bag on the seats....and then shortly after that, there is a thread explaining how adding a huge bow sack finally made the wave long and keeps the driver from having to stand up while towing.

while I agree with your points, I also feel like there are advantages to not “sticking with what has worked pretty well for years”. 

[agarabaghi]

1 hour ago, TenTwentyOne said:

IIRC, I think the 5000 was the only available engine in the NXT series until this year, but I definitely could be wrong about that. Either way, that is the motor his has, and it has plenty of power for that boat.

Not sure on the prices you saw at boat shows, but it was a nationwide advertised program. Boat, trailer, swivel racks, 4” screen and zero off, bimini, cover, carpet, gen2, and plug and play ballast. 

I think they have it going on for this year as well. Same package, but $69,900 now......

He looked at a T23 as well. It performed awesome, but he wasn’t a fan of the asthetics (subjective), and also didn’t like how hot the vinyl was. Other than those little things, I think that was top of his list as well.

Check mastercraft.com and yea thats a good deal $69,400 surf ready. 

I just went for a 2019 A22 as the MC dealer here is non existant still (though action should be up and running soon)

Tommys has treated me so well it would be hard to leave. I would need to spend a good bit of time with an nxt22 to see if the wake can be dial in to something worth switch again. The XT23 and X23 did not impress me wake wise. I will say I do like the NXT screen layout a bit more than axis as it has 1 nice digital screen and a lot more billet there (the axis def is plastic haha). I think the A22 and the NXT22 will be 2 stiff competitors this year with the new A22 redesign, though I think its priced a bit higher. 

[agarabaghi]

45 minutes ago, TenTwentyOne said:

@IXFE I think that’s a good point, and I agree that MC launched their fair share of finicky hulls. They have seemed to finally get it, and drop all the deep Vs. 

That is certainly one thing you can count on with Bu. Consistent wakes and waves that really only vary in size. There is a downside to that design philosophy as well though..... you can count on the shape of your wave, but you can also count on needing a dump truck in the bow (unless it’s a 25 footer), and only the goofy wave will be an exceptional surf style wave, with a well defined lip. And even then, they aren’t as good as a lot of other boats if you are looking for that type of wave. (Lots aren’t)

Sometimes that doesn’t matter to a lot of people, especially if they are primarily skim rider, but it’s still a well known characteristic of a Bu wave that a lot of people complain about. So, while not trying new things has its advantages, it also has disadvantages.

Every time the VLX, or 23LSV gets a redesign, it is stated that it no longer needs a bow bag on the seats....and then shortly after that, there is a thread explaining how adding a huge bow sack finally made the wave long and keeps the driver from having to stand up while towing.

while I agree with your points, I also feel like there are advantages to not “sticking with what has worked pretty well for years”. 

I dont think with surf tabs and wedge you will ever get away from the bow rise. 

Does adding 7 50lbs bags of lead under the bow sac under the seats count? =)

 

 

[agarabaghi]

1 hour ago, IXFE said:

This statement to me proves @Fman‘s point about lost identity. Why is the NT22 a completely different animal than the NXT22?  Seems every MC is a completely different animal than all the others in their lineup. Wakes and waves are hit or miss, require unique setups, etc. 

One of the things I really like about Malibu / Axis is the how “user friendly” the wakes & waves are, and how CONSISTENT they are from model to model. Subtle differences for sure, but seriously, put on a blindfold and tell me the difference between a 22 VLX wave and 23 LSV wave.  You’re a liar if you think you can.  From my first surfgate boat (13 21 VLX) to my biggest (17 25 LSV) and all in between the shape and wave characteristics were basically identical, and weight setup, speed, wedge position, etc was largely the same.  Only difference was size as boat gets bigger/heavier  

Most boat companies have a certain “design language” when it comes to interior and exterior design.  MC has the curved rubrail. Nautique has the big bloated look with Supras old tower and a giant eagle sticker (only kidding, of course). Malibu definitely has their own look too, but what I really like is that they seem to be the one of the only boat companies that has a consistent “design language” around their running surface and wave making technology. 

Last time I was at the factory I actually had a cool convo with Richie Anderson about their philosophy around running surface design. In short, less is more. 

Maybe their running surface less is more, but then you attach a reverse hydrofoil to pull the back end down? lol

[hunter77ah]

3 hours ago, TenTwentyOne said:

 

I think the rep confused you with the two processes. 

On the NXT, they have precut foam pieces that are epoxied to the hull, and then wrapped with several layers fiberglass. The foam is simply used as a form for the fiberglass stringer grid. On the XT, and X series, they have premade stringer structures that are epoxied in, and then filled with foam after they have cured into place.

i have also been to the factory. As well as Bu and SC.......... every single year since 2011. And I have seen them hand rolling the glass layers on the stringers in an NXT on more than one occasion.

Thanks for the clarification. He just said foam stringers and when I asked him again, he confirmed it but didn’t add the extra bit you did. I thought it was strange, but I thought it was just the way they do it. 

I did bu and sc on the same day as well. It was cool to see how similar the process was for each manufacturer as well as the little details that each company emphasized.

[IXFE]

2 hours ago, TenTwentyOne said:

@IXFE I think that’s a good point, and I agree that MC launched their fair share of finicky hulls. They have seemed to finally get it, and drop all the deep Vs. 

That is certainly one thing you can count on with Bu. Consistent wakes and waves that really only vary in size. There is a downside to that design philosophy as well though..... you can count on the shape of your wave, but you can also count on needing a dump truck in the bow (unless it’s a 25 footer), and only the goofy wave will be an exceptional surf style wave, with a well defined lip. And even then, they aren’t as good as a lot of other boats if you are looking for that type of wave. (Lots aren’t)

Sometimes that doesn’t matter to a lot of people, especially if they are primarily skim rider, but it’s still a well known characteristic of a Bu wave that a lot of people complain about. So, while not trying new things has its advantages, it also has disadvantages.

Every time the VLX, or 23LSV gets a redesign, it is stated that it no longer needs a bow bag on the seats....and then shortly after that, there is a thread explaining how adding a huge bow sack finally made the wave long and keeps the driver from having to stand up while towing.

while I agree with your points, I also feel like there are advantages to not “sticking with what has worked pretty well for years”. 

Wanna know the biggest advantage of doing it Bu’s way...

#1 market share

[TenTwentyOne]

6 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Wanna know the biggest advantage of doing it Bu’s way...

#1 market share

Sure. That’s a valid point. But let’s not pretend that MC isn’t still in 2nd, or that there are a more “Malibu” branded boats sold every year than MCs..... even if you take the NXTs out of the equation.

MC is still at capacity, MC is still selling out production slots significantly early on many models, and they still hold a huge market share.

so they experimented with deeper Vs for a while, and inherently got the finicky wakes and waves along with it. Just like any other deep v. It’s not like there isn’t advantages to that hull design. Anyone running a Bu at 20mph in 2’ chop can attest to that.

its easy to make assumptions that make your brand stand out in your view. And it’s easy to point out inadequacies in other boats that are impossible to measure. The same characteristics can just as easily be a bonus to another customer.

its no different than me not having Bu on the top of my list any more, because I have gotten used to a smoother ride, no ballast bags on the seats, and having rear locker storage.

besides that, I don’t have to deal with the weight sensitivity anymore anyway..... the only boat left in their lineup with a deep v is the X20.

[agarabaghi]

X20 is cause one member we know a bunch of issues right twenty 😂😂

[TenTwentyOne]

4 minutes ago, agarabaghi said:

X20 is cause one member we know a bunch of issues right twenty 😂😂

Holy cow, you aren’t kidding. 

[IXFE]

8 hours ago, TenTwentyOne said:

Sure. That’s a valid point. But let’s not pretend that MC isn’t still in 2nd, or that there are a more “Malibu” branded boats sold every year than MCs..... even if you take the NXTs out of the equation.

MC is still at capacity, MC is still selling out production slots significantly early on many models, and they still hold a huge market share.

so they experimented with deeper Vs for a while, and inherently got the finicky wakes and waves along with it. Just like any other deep v. It’s not like there isn’t advantages to that hull design. Anyone running a Bu at 20mph in 2’ chop can attest to that.

its easy to make assumptions that make your brand stand out in your view. And it’s easy to point out inadequacies in other boats that are impossible to measure. The same characteristics can just as easily be a bonus to another customer.

its no different than me not having Bu on the top of my list any more, because I have gotten used to a smoother ride, no ballast bags on the seats, and having rear locker storage.

besides that, I don’t have to deal with the weight sensitivity anymore anyway..... the only boat left in their lineup with a deep v is the X20.

LOL... it’s funny how easy you are to get wound up. One jab about market share and you’re off to the races rambling about everything from factory capacity, choppy water, exposed sacks, and something about being 2nd best. Any other random topics you want to bring to this discussion?

I will give you this... you just validated something I long suspected (and witnessed) about MC owners: they buy tow boats for reasons other than tow sports (ie rough water ride). 

Why anybody would prioritize rough water ride on a wake boat is beyond me. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Spoiler alert... I don’t golf on s***ty courses, I don’t ride motorcycles in the rain, and I don’t surf in choppy water. 

 

[agarabaghi]

I don’t buy wakeboard boats to surf 😂

[TenTwentyOne]

IXFE once again pointing out that volume is king....... BRB, headed out to trade my Raptor for a Tundra.

BTW, saying that I “prioritized” rough water ride was a nice little stretch, even for you. That confirms one thing I have always known about you...... point out any weakness in a Bu, and i am automatically a brand homer that that can’t add up the sales figures. 

Why anybody would prioritize sales figures on a wake boat is beyond me 🤦🏻‍♂️

I always get a kick out of the fact that you lump all of your eggs into that basket every time.

[67King]

Oh, good grief.  Who the heck cares, anyway?  Sheesh, this is a MALIBU forum, by the way.  Conversely, that kind of coin of a boat shouldn't be a unitasker.  All kinds of things to consider.  Sheesh, if I had my way, I'd have a direct drive, but I have a whole family to consider.  So unfortunatley, layout is prioritized over ski-ability for us (and of course I'm the only one in the family who prefers to ski).  Our lake is also insanely busy.  Lots of MC's pulling tubers out there (kidding!  Well, actually......it is pretty true).  So yeah, getting through that is a factor, and why we went with a 22' boat several years ago when we got our first (Axis).  

 

The Malibu fits my family and our priorities better than other boats.  We looked at a few others, but stayed with the Malibu family when we upgraded.  Is it the best wake for surfing?  Probably not, but for a sub $100,000 boat, I don't hear folks saying there is a better one.  But again, other folks may have higher priorities.  I don't care for the bling, but other people might.  I expect a pretty nice level of fit and finish, but Malibu is sufficient (as opposed to say an Axis).  But some folks may want even nicer.  NP.

 

Malibu's volumes indicate that more people have their priorities ordered in a way that lines up with what Malibu offers.  That may change over time, and another brand may displace Malibu.  It doesn't mean Malibu is better, it means that our perspectives are mroe in line with the overall tow boat population's than the MC (or Nautique or others for that matter) owners.  No biggie.

[IXFE]

1 hour ago, TenTwentyOne said:

IXFE once again pointing out that volume is king....... BRB, headed out to trade my Raptor for a Tundra.

BTW, saying that I “prioritized” rough water ride was a nice little stretch, even for you. That confirms one thing I have always known about you...... point out any weakness in a Bu, and i am automatically a brand homer that that can’t add up the sales figures. 

Why anybody would prioritize sales figures on a wake boat is beyond me 🤦🏻‍♂️

I always get a kick out of the fact that you lump all of your eggs into that basket every time.

This just in. @TenTwentyOne is very sensitive about MC’s position in the market, even when poking fun. Tread lightly 

Stay on topic, buddy. This started with @Fman saying MC had lost their identity. I chimed in to say I agreed based on the inconsistency of their boats over the past decade (some good, some bad, no two really alike). That’s it. End of discussion. You actually agreed with me before throwing rocks at Bu’s wave.  Everything since has been tongue in cheek (from me anyway). 

EDIT: Raptor, huh?  Another piece of the puzzle comes into place 

Edited August 12, 2018 by IXFE

[TenTwentyOne]

But who was really sensitive? I get it now.

sorry, @IXFE, that I had an ounce of criticism for the almighty Malibu surf wave. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. Bu’s have a nice wave 🍻

[bamabonners]

This reminds me of the discussion I have daily with my customers with Dell vs HP.  Basically, the same or similar components sourced from same or similar sources.  Both doing similar functions, but with their own identity on the best way to do it.  Fan boys on both sides...  

[IXFE]

“You’re sensitive”

”No you’re sensitive!”

Super creative, @TenTwentyOne

Edited August 12, 2018 by IXFE

[Suggy]

Just to add this in there... I saw a sign at a boat show this winter (2018) that said Malibu was 36%, Nautique 17% and MasterCraft 16% of the market share... I can't find anything online but specifically remember these numbers. I was shocked when I saw Nautique in second.