Gph Comparison

[KJKimball]

3 hours ago, TallRedRider said:

I fail to understand how doing the test on the same day would make a difference.   As if temperature makes all that much difference, all were done on pretty smooth water.  

I am not sure why you mention the surf gate creating more drag and the wedge being a drag bucket.  Are you suggesting they should have done the test without those things?  It is clear from this test that the Malibu uses more gas.  

Someone said the G had the 450, but it had the supercharged motor.  

Real work fuel consumption is going to be much less, as others have pointed out.  Between switching riders, idling back to get a fallen rider and cruising, it is going to be a lot less.  

Let's do a few quick calculations.  Most of us can fuel up on the way to the lake, so let's assume $3 per gallon, 100 hours per year and 10 gallons per hour.   It comes out to a whopping $3000!  Or if I just buy me an Ri 257, maybe I could whittle that down to $1500.  When making a decision on a boat that costs 130K+ like all of these do, saving myself $1500 a year is one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard.  Seriously, people.  And high hour folks will lose on depreciation more than they lose in gas costs.  

The only time there is a rational argument here is if you boat all day and need to go refuel in the middle of the day, that sucks.   I have never had to do that in my G23, as time to idle back to my rider, swim around, relax and listen to music usually cuts down on some fuel consumption. 

Doesn't the Ri have a 92 gallon tank, and the others have somewhere around 65 gallons?  I miss my 247 and X45 that had 90 gallon tanks.  I could go days without refueling.  

Doing the test the same day in the same location on the same lake is the easiest way to eliminate variables related to conditions, temps, winds, elevation, lake depth, etc.  From the website of the dealer that did this video, the MXZ was on a lake 400ft lower in elevation than the other 2.  Consider if these test were done in different seasons, different states, the performance would be affected.  

I mention surf gate and the wedge as drag producing devices because the added drag of those devices increases load on the engine which increases fuel consumption as compared to a listing style tab system of the G23 or others.  Since malibu is the only one using wedge and gates, they have the highest deployable device drag penalty of those in the comparison.

The diacom readings being shown are broadcast from the engine ECM as a calculated value.  It is not measured with a fuel flow meter or fuel totalizer and is there as a general guide more than a fine instrument.

A better comparison would be to have a test plan that was X number of surf passes of a defined length or time on the same spot in the lake.  Say, 15 or 20 one-minute runs.  Same path on every run.  Each boat topped off with fuel before the runs and then refilled after.  Note the gallons used.  this would get you some good gas burn numbers to compare.

As for HP of the engines, the PCM H6 is advertised at 450hp but actually produces 390hp.  The PCM 550 XR7 LSA is advertised at 550-555hp but actually puts out 508hp.  The indmar 440(monsoon 450 as malibu calls it) puts out 398hp.  

I have operated and tested a wide variety of boats including 24MXZ, G23, X45, SA450, 23LSV, and many other models with the Indmar GM and ford engines, PCM, Ilmor, etc. Broken down old test boats to brand new boats.  I have run the same boats with one brand of engine and then that boat again with another brand of engine to see how they compare in a common hull.  There are some combinations of engine/gear ratio and prop that simply work better in some boat models than others.  

[Infinitysurf]

Curious why you think depreciation is so much worse on a Centurion vs Nautique vs Malibu? Obviously the 1st year is the worst, but most people are also not paying MSRP when they buy new. Not being sarcastic, seriously want to know since from what I have seen on the used market, they all seem to hold value pretty well. Are you seeing bigger hits on Centurion than other brands in your area? 

[granddaddy55]

I knew I was going to be very entertained today on the forum after seeing this yesterday

Edited January 7, 2018 by granddaddy55

[granddaddy55]

Heavy listing even with auto set wedge( ie fully deployed) severely changes the drag and therefore the consumption vs barging and the wedge , no transfers but better wave, and yes nose weight really  really helps , but helps more if you use it to create more list

Edited January 7, 2018 by granddaddy55

[granddaddy55]

I don’t have a crew so I super overweight (my rear bags are bigger than most larger boats at 850 with a 800-820 fill with kinetic vents in surf side , 200-250 non surf and improved pnp hose structure I redid this year and the 950 front I burp excessively )the A20 and with that small boat full fuel and wedge plus 500 lead used with offset rears to list,  and we don’t have a crew that wouldn’t want to sit where told, and you get great fuel consumption 

AS SOON AS I BARGE, terrible fuel consumption 

goes from 4-6 to 8-10 or more with the 330 monsoon and a 1235 acme

i bet that type of extreme listing would improve anyone’s wave and consumption even in some larger boats

ruins transfers but how many of our surfers can even accomplish riding backside even if they complete the transfer -but I admit on s buzy lake you would chilli dip the listed bow when retrieving surfer -I’m on a bayou

and really good crews like many of you have should be amenable to following directions and you wouldn’t even have to empty opposite rears to create better wave for surfer and also better fuel consumption 

I’ll hang over the side standing on the whatever it’s called  holding on to the tower and leaning out  if I was told to !!

whats wrong with better fuel consumption WHILE MAKING MEMORIES AND SMILES, especially since many of those along aren’t contributing and many of you subsidize/welfare your friends just to get them to come for the fun and TO BE BALLAST!

and i stupidly pay for on the street non ethanol premium , that many say is unnecessary , so I relish the opportunity to use less of it especially when it was costing me just shy or over $4/gl on the road at the height of crisis. So I waste my advantage and put it into what I believe helps in the long run but I mostly do it just in case boat sits for 1/2 to 3/4 of a year when I shattered my femur , same tank went out 9 months later for  1 st surf back 

Edited January 7, 2018 by granddaddy55

[Pra4sno]

This thread has it all; comedy, drama, and even a boat chase where they got bad fuel consumption in their $130k surf boat.

[hethj7]

11 hours ago, Infinitysurf said:

Curious why you think depreciation is so much worse on a Centurion vs Nautique vs Malibu? Obviously the 1st year is the worst, but most people are also not paying MSRP when they buy new. Not being sarcastic, seriously want to know since from what I have seen on the used market, they all seem to hold value pretty well. Are you seeing bigger hits on Centurion than other brands in your area? 

Completely anecdotal I admit, but it just seems like a few threads have popped up with low pricing examples on the Ri and M235.  I see 10 examples of the Ri237 listed at 110K or lower on OIB - I assume an out the door price on most of those was around 140.  Maybe I am way off on the purchase price.  

Same on the M - I just saw a few for sale under 120 lately.  Boat show price was 160 or so when they first came out.  

Those just seem like they are taking bigger hits than some other models, but in fairness, maybe not much different than the MXZ series.   They always seem to take a bigger hit on depreciation than the traditional bow boats  

 

 

[TenTwentyOne]

46 minutes ago, hethj7 said:

Completely anecdotal I admit, but it just seems like a few threads have popped up with low pricing examples on the Ri and M235.  I see 10 examples of the Ri237 listed at 110K or lower on OIB - I assume an out the door price on most of those was around 140.  Maybe I am way off on the purchase price.  

Same on the M - I just saw a few for sale under 120 lately.  Boat show price was 160 or so when they first came out.  

Those just seem like they are taking bigger hits than some other models, but in fairness, maybe not much different than the MXZ series.   They always seem to take a bigger hit on depreciation than the traditional bow boats  

 

 

For what it's worth, I priced an Ri237 this year, along with a pricing an '18 G23, and '18 XStar. I didn't go with the Ri, but I was mildly interested in it. One thing I can tell you, is that the Ri237 is probably not nearly as expensive as you are thinking it might be. The example I priced had a lot of flake and was loaded. It just barely crested 160k MSRP, and was offered at a 27% discount. It was going to be $121,300 OTD. 

The other two had MSRPs of about $210k. Way higher than the Ri, equally optioned.

Even if it had only been offered at a 20% discount, you are looking at less than 130k for a loaded example. Judging by the base price Of the Ri237, it seems to me that they run about $100k lightly optioned, up to about 130k loaded. So, it doesn't surprise me that used examples are running under 110k. And if they are actually selling here and there, it definitely suggests that they are holding their value as good as any competitive 23' boat.

The M235, however, definitely seems to be taking a MUCH bigger first year hit than anything else right now. 2nd year and beyond will probably level off with the others....... but holy first year hit! The way that I upgrade every year, there is no way I could ever do a M235. I'd get killed. If I was going Bu, it would be a 23 or 25LSV. Those are great models for not killing your wallet on a first year flip.

 

[TenTwentyOne]

As for the GPH comparison....... seems like some good food for thought. However, I know that a simple prop change (going from a 17x17 to a 17x19.5) reduced my fuel consumption by more than 30%. I didn't have a dicom, but used an entire season to get an average on both, as well as just checking it on several outings. It was a huge undeniable difference by simply swapping to a prop that lowered my surf and wakeboard RPMs by about 400 rpm.

Point being- on average some boats are definitely going to be better, and I'm sure dragging a wedge isn't going to help....... but there are very simple things that could have greatly skewed this test. Even a simple prop change could narrow it up to a relatively insignificant difference.

Edited January 7, 2018 by TenTwentyOne

[Pnwrider]

1 hour ago, TenTwentyOne said:

For what it's worth, I priced an Ri237 this year, along with a pricing an '18 G23, and '18 XStar. I didn't go with the Ri, but I was mildly interested in it. One thing I can tell you, is that the Ri237 is probably not nearly as expensive as you are thinking it might be. The example I priced had a lot of flake and was loaded. It just barely crested 160k MSRP, and was offered at a 27% discount. It was going to be $121,300 OTD. 

The other two had MSRPs of about $210k. Way higher than the Ri, equally optioned.

Even if it had only been offered at a 20% discount, you are looking at less than 130k for a loaded example. Judging by the base price Of the Ri237, it seems to me that they run about $100k lightly optioned, up to about 130k loaded. So, it doesn't surprise me that used examples are running under 110k. And if they are actually selling here and there, it definitely suggests that they are holding their value as good as any competitive 23' boat.

The M235, however, definitely seems to be taking a MUCH bigger first year hit than anything else right now. 2nd year and beyond will probably level off with the others....... but holy first year hit! The way that I upgrade every year, there is no way I could ever do a M235. I'd get killed. If I was going Bu, it would be a 23 or 25LSV. Those are great models for not killing your wallet on a first year flip.

 

Definitely not my experience. I was quoted 128k plus tax, title, license on a moderately optioned (no paint upgrades, mostly standard options) ri237. So I was gonna be low 140s out the door. There was about a 10k difference to step down to an fi23. I was told these boats do not have as much margin as the big 3 (less units built, lower economies of scale, etc), so I should not expect the discount to be anywhere near 20% off msrp. Not sure how you got to 27% off, I was at 12% off msrp. Maybe others can chime in. 

[TenTwentyOne]

13 minutes ago, Pnwrider said:

Definitely not my experience. I was quoted 128k plus tax, title, license on a moderately optioned (no paint upgrades, mostly standard options) ri237. So I was gonna be low 140s out the door. There was about a 10k difference to step down to an fi23. I was told these boats do not have as much margin as the big 3 (less units built, lower economies of scale, etc), so I should not expect the discount to be anywhere near 20% off msrp. Not sure how you got to 27% off, I was at 12% off msrp. Maybe others can chime in. 

I can tell you with absolute certainty that Centurion is running similar margins as Malibu and MC. I have never been able to figure out exactly what Nautique margins are, but I do know many others. Sometimes, all you need to do is ask to see the dealer costs in their order portal/dealer order site. Some will show you and some won’t....... 

Maybe I have an easier time requesting that info, because the dealers know I do the stock ordering for a couple different brands, and obviously see exact pricing when I do....

Of the ones I have seen, margin percentages were all very close. The only exception was Moomba. They actually did have a much lower margin, which was odd, because Supra was similar to the average margins.

Im not interested in disclosing actual numbers, but I can tell you that they are all VERY similar margins..... which doesn’t surprise me one bit.

IMO, just because a brand is selling less units, doesn’t mean they are going to run a completely different pricing structure than their main competitors. They aren’t going to want customers to be like “I can get twice the discount on a Supra, so I am going to buy an SL”

 

 

[wheelman]

55 minutes ago, Pnwrider said:

Definitely not my experience. I was quoted 128k plus tax, title, license on a moderately optioned (no paint upgrades, mostly standard options) ri237. So I was gonna be low 140s out the door. There was about a 10k difference to step down to an fi23. I was told these boats do not have as much margin as the big 3 (less units built, lower economies of scale, etc), so I should not expect the discount to be anywhere near 20% off msrp. Not sure how you got to 27% off, I was at 12% off msrp. Maybe others can chime in. 

12% off Msrp is ridiculous. Discount in the 20’s should be easily had and bro deals will be available for more. I can tell you if a used ri is selling at 110 it makes me extremely happy to be in mine. 

[Infinitysurf]

I priced a new RI237 and FI23 a few months ago and decided to stay in my 2014 since its holding value so well, and I am not ready for the big depreciation hit I would take. Mine is paid off right now, which is a good feeling and would not be the case if I bought new so that is another factor for me personally tho I will say that I love the 2017/2018 interiors, quality of vinyl is much better among other things. Anyway, I heard the rumor about Centurion not having as much wiggle room either, but I think a lot of that is the area you are in and the dealer you have....the more boats dealer moves, the better then can price them since from what I have been told its similar to car dealer, they more they sell, the better incentives they get. So even tho a car dealer can "show you their invoice", that is not necessarily the price they pay when things are said and done, that is the WORST case scenario of what they may pay. So many people "window shop, that until a dealer knows you are serious about buying, doubt they are gonna give you the best price they could....obviously they are in business to make the most money possible, its their job to make you think you are getting the best price. As long as banks will finance for 15-20yrs at reasonable rates, they will keep selling them. Who thinks rates will go up this year! I am getting ready to build a new home and break ground in next few weeks, I am glad I got a single closing where the construction loan rolls into permanent loan with locked in rate cause I for one, think rates will go up a full point by end of 2018. Market good =  higher rates and its been slowly climbing. Getting off track here tho, sorry for the derail.

[Cole2001]

I honestly feel like when it comes down to pricing it totally depends on the region. Up here in the B.C. Alberta area boat prices are stupidly expensive. Whereas down in Arizona and Texas areas boats can be had for way way less. Boats are listed for less than what I got in on trade. 

For the most part boats from 2014 are more than enough, one of my best memories of surfing was behind a 15yr old Calabria slammed to the max. The inner parts of us just love having the latest and the greatest. This also brings out the most efficient and advanced technology, although they all seem to put smiles on peoples faces. 

So if you’re spending 150k on a boat how much does a couple hundred bucks in fuel savings really amount to anyways? Not a lot. 

Edited January 7, 2018 by Cole2001

[Fman]

Centurion is built in California, probably the most expensive place in the country to build a boat.  I can only imagine all the extra permits, inspections and expensive high tech filtration systems this state requires in comparison to the mid western states.  Not to mention the employee labor rates are much higher, work comp insurance, benefits, etc... you can't even find a Home Depot parking lot grunt laborer to work for under $25/hr cash here anymore.

Would it be safe to assume these factors cut into Centurions profit margin?  Possibly not making there margains the same as other competitors? There is a reason Malibu left CA and headed east to join MC and Skiers Choice.

[Cole2001]

@Fman I never would have taken building locations into consideration. But now that I think of it, it makes perfect sense. 

I’ve been through the Nautique and Tige factories and they’re definitely different. Tige being in Texas and Nautique being in Florida. Nautique everything seemed a little more “management controlled” or regulated. Where as Tige felt more like a family run operation. 

Side not. Why can’t boats just be like Tesla’s? Order them online for a price, no negotiation or what not, just ordered and arrives at your local pickup. Is that the future? 

Edit: Now that I think of it I kinda just did buy a boat online (phone) through a dealer I’ve never stepped foot into. Lol

Edited January 8, 2018 by Cole2001

[wheelman]

9 minutes ago, Cole2001 said:

@Fman I never would have taken building locations into consideration. But now that I think of it, it makes perfect sense. 

I’ve been through the Nautique and Tige factories and they’re definitely different. Tige being in Texas and Nautique being in Florida. Nautique everything seemed a little more “management controlled” or regulated. Where as Tige felt more like a family run operation. 

Side not. Why can’t boats just be like Tesla’s? Order them online for a price, no negotiation or what not, just ordered and arrives at your local pickup. Is that the future? 

Edit: Now that I think of it I kinda just did buy a boat online (phone) through a dealer I’ve never stepped foot into. Lol

 Cole, what new boat did you buy? Who did you buy from?

[Cole2001]

1 minute ago, wheelman said:

 Cole, what new boat did you buy? Who did you buy from?

Tige Rzx from GT performance in Saskatoon. Amazing deal on a 16 at the factory. Just trying to figure how to get it here

[wheelman]

3 minutes ago, Cole2001 said:

Tige Rzx from GT performance in Saskatoon. Amazing deal on a 16 at the factory. Just trying to figure how to get it here

Nice, congrats. I’ve heard of people having good luck with uship. 

[Cole2001]

1 minute ago, wheelman said:

Nice, congrats. I’ve heard of people having good luck with uship. 

Thanks. Love the look of the Malibu but for the price of a new lsv or even VLX it really didn’t seem worth it. 

Uship sounds like it’s definitely the way to go. Just getting across mountains in the middle of winter....

[Fman]

Is anyone on here with a Surfgate Malibu burning 17 gph?

I have owned 3 surfgate boats 2013 21vlx (350) 2015 22vlx (409) and currently have a 17 LSV with Raptor 410.  I can't ever recall getting worse than 8 gph on all my boats.  Currently have 100 hours on my 23 lsv w 2277 prop and averaging 7-8 gph surfing.  I will burn closer to 8 at 2000' (10+ crew size) and about 7.0-7.5 gph at 400'.   This is with hard tanks full rear bags 450-500 lbs.  We usually run wedge 2-3 clicks surfing and even 4 clicks occasionally.   Our crew size can be 4 up to 14.  My RPMs @ 11.2 mph with 2277 are right around 3300-3500.

I'm definitely in the moderate weight use category but can't imagine ever burning 17 gph surfing.  The video has some interesting data but I am almost certain that 24 mxz is completely over propped.  The RPMs seem excessively high on the video.

Could someone with a new 24 mxz with a season of legit use and properly setup chime in and confirm 17 gph surfing?  What about a 25 lsv?  What are you guys averaging?

[Cole2001]

Was that not the older version of the mxz? That could potentially change things up. 

 

[skurfer]

5 hours ago, Fman said:

Centurion is built in California, probably the most expensive place in the country to build a boat.  I can only imagine all the extra permits, inspections and expensive high tech filtration systems this state requires in comparison to the mid western states.  Not to mention the employee labor rates are much higher, work comp insurance, benefits, etc... you can't even find a Home Depot parking lot grunt laborer to work for under $25/hr cash here anymore.

Would it be safe to assume these factors cut into Centurions profit margin?  Possibly not making there margains the same as other competitors? There is a reason Malibu left CA and headed east to join MC and Skiers Choice.

Ding ding. Part of the reason Fineline went with the VIP-Vacuum Infused Process of building boats was to avoid permit fees, inspections, high filtration systems, etc.. Precise amounts of resin is sucked through pre-cut fiberglass. Workers don't have to wear respirators and they are happy and the company doesn't have to pay (the EPA) to release VOC's.. Last I heard the workers don't make anywhere near that much, many have 2 jobs to pay the bills. Their benefits have improved after the Correct Craft purchase. 

I thought Malibu was still doing some parts and engineering out of the CA plant, many reasons why BU went to TN but I thought a big reason they moved the boat manufacturing to TN was because the economy went into the toilet! 

Edited January 8, 2018 by skurfer

[TenTwentyOne]

6 hours ago, Fman said:

Is anyone on here with a Surfgate Malibu burning 17 gph?

I have owned 3 surfgate boats 2013 21vlx (350) 2015 22vlx (409) and currently have a 17 LSV with Raptor 410.  I can't ever recall getting worse than 8 gph on all my boats.  Currently have 100 hours on my 23 lsv w 2277 prop and averaging 7-8 gph surfing.  I will burn closer to 8 at 2000' (10+ crew size) and about 7.0-7.5 gph at 400'.   This is with hard tanks full rear bags 450-500 lbs.  We usually run wedge 2-3 clicks surfing and even 4 clicks occasionally.   Our crew size can be 4 up to 14.  My RPMs @ 11.2 mph with 2277 are right around 3300-3500.

I'm definitely in the moderate weight use category but can't imagine ever burning 17 gph surfing.  The video has some interesting data but I am almost certain that 24 mxz is completely over propped.  The RPMs seem excessively high on the video.

Could someone with a new 24 mxz with a season of legit use and properly setup chime in and confirm 17 gph surfing?  What about a 25 lsv?  What are you guys averaging?

I can't speak first hand to a surfgate Malibu. One of our friends has a 15LSV, and if we load up with 6-8 people and surf all afternoon on a Saturday, we will run it close to empty..... maybe 5ish hours, and running everyone through 2-3 sets each. I'm not sure how much fuel it holds.... 60 gal? I'm sure it still has 10-15 gallons when the gauge is down low. So, maybe burning 8-9gph?

Nonetheless, I found almost the exact same with my 2016 G23, on the stock 17x17 prop. After 5ish hours, she was low, on a 65 gallon tank. On my 17, I swapped to the 17x19.5, and could ride that same 5 hours, and have the tank only half empty. I still can't believe how much difference it made to be surfing at 2900rpm instead of 3400.

Either way, the dicom readings in the vid are only while the boat is going......... GPH is going to go to less than 1gph any time you are idling, and returning for a rider, etc. I don't know about your crew, but mine is pretty colorful with doing tricks, being silly out there, or really trying to learn something new. On the average day, I can guarantee that we spend at least 30% of the running time, idling back to pick up the rider, and 10% of the time with the engine off while swapping riders and socializing.

Pull rider up, they surf 2-4 minutes, they fall, and we spend 1-2 minutes turning around and idling back to them. Same thing, over and over again.

If you really consider how much idling time you have, while towing the average surfer, it is no surprise to me that you could average 8-9gph, but still be burning 14+ while you are actually towing. 

[shawndoggy]

^^^^ zactly!  8 gph avg for the day and 13 gph under load are not inconsistent at all.