2017 23 LSV vs 2018 Axis A24 vs 2018 23 LSV

[ahopkins22LSV]

41 minutes ago, guitarcrazy said:

What is the issue with the Raptor?  I had the PCM 343 in my MB, and this looks to be a more stout motor.  I am generally a GM guy, having never owned a Ford for more than a week, but I thought the Raptor was a pretty well received motor?

I'm also a GM guy to be fair but the new engines are going to be DI from my understanding. They are performing to a very high level in the Nautiques. I'm not a fan of how the Raptor is setup with dual spark plugs, the added gear box noise and high frequency of exhaust temp codes they throw. We also boat in some pretty cold weather which seems to throw random codes. They really drink fuel too. 

[TenTwentyOne]

2 hours ago, ahopkinsTXi said:

I'm also a GM guy to be fair but the new engines are going to be DI from my understanding. They are performing to a very high level in the Nautiques. I'm not a fan of how the Raptor is setup with dual spark plugs, the added gear box noise and high frequency of exhaust temp codes they throw. We also boat in some pretty cold weather which seems to throw random codes. They really drink fuel too. 

I, for one, do not even understand why they are running Heated oxygen sensors in boats. That is what is fouling in the indmars..... it’s the actual heater element in the 02 sensor, not the actual sensing part of it. Not to mention they are bothering to run wide band now???

I mean, how often is a boat even in closed loop running mode?? Is there a lot of us cruising at less than 10% throttle for extended periods, and want maximum fuel efficiency while doing so?  99.9% of the time (in a boat), the ECU is completely ignoring the oxygen sensors, because it is either idling, or under load, and is running in open loop. 

Oxygen sensors are almost entirely useless in this application, let alone very sensitive and temperamental wide band heated units.

[bamaboy]

A few points

 

1)I'm guessing there will be some growing pains with these motors. That is to be expected.  The key is how fast can Malibu get them sorted out and make sure that customers keep their boats on the water.  

 

2)Kudos to Malibu for taking this step.  Once they get the process streamlined and efficient, it will be a good thing for Malibu customers. 

 

3)The motor is the LEAST important part of the engine/transmission/prop combination in these boats.  I truly believe that.   Malibu doesn't need to reinvent the wheel.  Just churn out a reliable, solid motor and they will be fine. 

[MadMan]

2 hours ago, TenTwentyOne said:

I, for one, do not even understand why they are running Heated oxygen sensors in boats.

I think it's all EPA driven.

[agarabaghi]

the 409 in my 17 T23 has been pushed hard for 75 hours so far since we got it in August and no issues. I just hope there arent any problems with whatever motor they go with, i would love a T23 wit h 17" and 2:1 =)

[TenTwentyOne]

13 hours ago, MadMan said:

I think it's all EPA driven.

Ya, it is for sure.

Too bad they couldn’t just give us all engines that are 500hp or more. They could skip emissions compliance entirely. Heck my 2017 PCM XR7 still didn’t even have cats.

 And the irony that they charge so much more for it....

I’d still want a clean running and efficient engine. But scrap the useless stuff that doesn’t even benefit this type of use. 

 

[CharlieBeaU]

Almost all of my mechanical tinkering experience is automotive so forgive me if this is a silly line of thought. Coming from that experience where I can delete cats, DPFs, DEF, etc and get programmers that not only eliminate the codes I would otherwise get by deleting these parts but also provides a HP boost I just don't understand why these types of solutions aren't more prevalent in boating. If there is anything I've learned reading the posts on TMC over the last couple years it's that the people on this site are master tinkerers. In automotive applications one of the first things to be done is often exhaust and a programmer. It's interesting to me that these options aren't even readily available to us for our boating applications.

[shawndoggy]

11 minutes ago, CharlieBeaU said:

 It's interesting to me that these options aren't even readily available to us for our boating applications.

Figure indmar powers, what, 25-30,000 boats a year max?

Chevy prolly sells that many silverados a month.  And the silverado powertrain is shared with a bunch of other models.  

Economies of scale make it much more attractive to offer tuning solutions in the car world.

[carguy79ta]

there prolly isn' much of a market for it.  I hotrod cars and my diesel ram but am not interested in tuning my boat.  

[CharlieBeaU]

20 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Figure indmar powers, what, 25-30,000 boats a year max?

Chevy prolly sells that many silverados a month.  And the silverado powertrain is shared with a bunch of other models.  

Economies of scale make it much more attractive to offer tuning solutions in the car world.

Makes sense. It still seems like a programmer would be a pretty high margin product that could be rewritten for marine applications relatively easily by a tuning company. Take the 410 Raptor. It's tuned for 89 Octane. If I could buy a programmer tuned to 92 Octane that gave me another 20 HP and 30 Lb/ft torque for $800 that's an upgrade I would really consider especially knowing that's basically all they do to make the 410 into a 450. 

[CharlieBeaU]

29 minutes ago, carguy79ta said:

there prolly isn' much of a market for it.  I hotrod cars and my diesel ram but am not interested in tuning my boat.  

Just curious, why not? 

[shawndoggy]

5 minutes ago, CharlieBeaU said:

Makes sense. It still seems like a programmer would be a pretty high margin product that could be rewritten for marine applications relatively easily by a tuning company. Take the 410 Raptor. It's tuned for 89 Octane. If I could buy a programmer tuned to 92 Octane that gave me another 20 HP and 30 Lb/ft torque for $800 that's an upgrade I would really consider especially knowing that's basically all they do to make the 410 into a 450. 

the Ford motors are themselves very rare overall... only in use for the past two seasons and only by indmar.  Good luck finding a tuner for that small market.

But yeah, I totally feel ya on paying for the tune.  Basically you get the tune plus a warranty for $5K from indmar.  Tune plus no warranty should definitely cost less.

[carguy79ta]

3 hours ago, CharlieBeaU said:

Just curious, why not? 

for me anyway..the more you hotrod something...make more and more HP..the more unreliable it becomes.  Also I just want to turn the key and go. factory reliable.  Although that topic has been debated before..

[CharlieBeaU]

5 minutes ago, carguy79ta said:

for me anyway..the more you hotrod something...make more and more HP..the more unreliable it becomes.  Also I just want to turn the key and go. factory reliable.  Although that topic has been debated before..

Very true. 

[kerpluxal]

On 11/26/2017 at 2:08 PM, bamaboy said:

A few points

 

1)I'm guessing there will be some growing pains with these motors. That is to be expected.  The key is how fast can Malibu get them sorted out and make sure that customers keep their boats on the water.  

 

2)Kudos to Malibu for taking this step.  Once they get the process streamlined and efficient, it will be a good thing for Malibu customers. 

 

3)The motor is the LEAST important part of the engine/transmission/prop combination in these boats.  I truly believe that.   Malibu doesn't need to reinvent the wheel.  Just churn out a reliable, solid motor and they will be fine. 

Well.. I don't think there will be growing pain imho... They probably have already designed and tested way before making the announcement. It will be the same block as gm puts in their vehicles, just marinized ( brass freeze plugs, different cam, marine starter and alternator, different programming/MEFI compatible... with them being direct injected, they probably won't need to develop a marine intake/fuel injection system)... 

 

As for the OP... Demo all 3... If I had a choice between the 2017 LSV and 2018 LSV... I would choose the 2018 IMO... The 24 is a bigger boat and you are getting a lot of value with it.. but it would compare with the 25 LSV of 24 MXZ. 

Edited November 28, 2017 by kerpluxal

[bamaboy]

8 hours ago, CharlieBeaU said:

Almost all of my mechanical tinkering experience is automotive so forgive me if this is a silly line of thought. Coming from that experience where I can delete cats, DPFs, DEF, etc and get programmers that not only eliminate the codes I would otherwise get by deleting these parts but also provides a HP boost I just don't understand why these types of solutions aren't more prevalent in boating. If there is anything I've learned reading the posts on TMC over the last couple years it's that the people on this site are master tinkerers. In automotive applications one of the first things to be done is often exhaust and a programmer. It's interesting to me that these options aren't even readily available to us for our boating applications.

They are prevalent in boating.  Very prevalent.  Just not "tow"boating.  A guy down the street from me makes a living modifying go-fast boats.  Tuning, chipping, supercharging, etc.  I must admit that some of his creations are pretty freaking bad a**.  I just don't think you gain much in a tow boat.  No one really cares about top end and you can easily re prop a boat and get plenty more hole shot.  

26 minutes ago, kerpluxal said:

Well.. I don't think there will be growing pain imho... They probably have already designed and tested way before making the announcement. It will be the same block as gm puts in their vehicles, just marinized ( brass freeze plugs, different cam, marine started and cam, different programming/MEFI compatible... with them being direct injected, they probably won't need to develop a marine intake/fuel injection system)... 

I hope so.  I just think it is a lot easier in theory than in practice. 

[carguy79ta]

^^^ what he said.  I was going to comment about the "loud and fast" crowd but didn't.  my coworker and his brothers are in that group.  one of them had a Talon picklefork with 2 mercs 2.5s and nitrous..about 800hp and would go 118.  not for me.  

[Ronnie]

1 hour ago, bamaboy said:

 

I hope so.  I just think it is a lot easier in theory than in practice. 

I think we'll be OK, they have brought in some heavy weights in the industry to get this right.

 

Edit: I hope they keep the closed cooling like these Ford motors have. I winterized (drained the lake water system) yesterday in ~10 minutes. So simple now.

[Fman]

13 hours ago, Ronnie said:

I think we'll be OK, they have brought in some heavy weights in the industry to get this right.

 

Edit: I hope they keep the closed cooling like these Ford motors have. I winterized (drained the lake water system) yesterday in ~10 minutes. So simple now.

And add the oil change to this list, about as easy as it gets to change oil and replace the cartridge filter.  I also noticed changing the impeller is going to be easy, access is the best I have seen in any engine I have previosuly owned (350, 409).