2017 Nautique G23 or 2018 Malibu 23 LSV

[IXFE]

3 hours ago, TenTwentyOne said:

I wouldn't be surprised if either one wasn't outselling the other by a small margin. But I am sure the numbers are close.

Sorry, but you are mistaken.  Here are the facts:

12 months rolling data for top sellers in 23' category (based on registrations):

• 23 LSV - 634
• G23 - 422
• X30/XT23 - 281
• X23 - 232
• T23 - 204
• 230 - 142
• Z3 - 132
• M235 - 75

Everything else (incl. Ri237) was less than M235.  

So the 23 LSV outsold the G23 by 212 boats, or 50%.  That's not a small margin.  

If you like looking at the data by manufacturer (in the 23' category), it looks like this:

• Malibu/Axis - 913
• Nautique - 564 (call it 600ish if you include Ri237, but I don't think you should since Fineline is only owned by Correct Craft; it is operated as a completely separate company, dealer network, etc.).
• Mastercraft - 513

Now consider this... the 23LSV that sold 634 units over the past 12 months is the OLD model, and they always sell worse in the final year of a design run (i.e. the outgoing 23 LSV sold well over 700 units the year prior to this).  The G23 is coming off a recent re-design (which really helped their volume surge over the past 12-24 months).  So the gap over the past year is narrower than it has been or will be in the next year... with the new 23 LSV out expect to see 15-20% pop in volume (similar to what they saw in 2014).  Also 230 sales are on their way out...

I will agree with you on this point... It's really amazing how many G23's that Nautique sells (considering the price point).  After the G23 their next top three models fall off a cliff volume wise.  Nautique really has become a one boat company... G23 or bust!

[teamerickson]

23 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Nautique really has become a one boat company... G23 or bust!

Yeah! Does anyone know what the margin per boat is on the G23? If I have time I may try and find it. 

[ahopkins22LSV]

And that's what you call a @IXFE knowledge bomb!

#mindblown

[05hammerhead]

Why is everyone hating on the Supercharged motor?  Id love to have one.  Id imagine that that motor will last a heck of a lot longer than a smaller motor always running 1,000 RPM high.  I would also imagine there is a fair amount of gas savings too with that motor.

[TenTwentyOne]

1 hour ago, IXFE said:

Sorry, but you are mistaken.  Here are the facts:

12 months rolling data for top sellers in 23' category (based on registrations):

• 23 LSV - 634
• G23 - 422
• X30/XT23 - 281
• X23 - 232
• T23 - 204
• 230 - 142
• Z3 - 132
• M235 - 75

Everything else (incl. Ri237) was less than M235.  

So the 23 LSV outsold the G23 by 212 boats, or 50%.  That's not a small margin.  

If you like looking at the data by manufacturer (in the 23' category), it looks like this:

• Malibu/Axis - 913
• Nautique - 564 (call it 600ish if you include Ri237, but I don't think you should since Fineline is only owned by Correct Craft; it is operated as a completely separate company, dealer network, etc.).
• Mastercraft - 513

Now consider this... the 23LSV that sold 634 units over the past 12 months is the OLD model, and they always sell worse in the final year of a design run (i.e. the outgoing 23 LSV sold well over 700 units the year prior to this).  The G23 is coming off a recent re-design (which really helped their volume surge over the past 12-24 months).  So the gap over the past year is narrower than it has been or will be in the next year... with the new 23 LSV out expect to see 15-20% pop in volume (similar to what they saw in 2014).  Also 230 sales are on their way out...

I will agree with you on this point... It's really amazing how many G23's that Nautique sells (considering the price point).  After the G23 their next top three models fall off a cliff volume wise.  Nautique really has become a one boat company... G23 or bust!

Fair enough, @IXFE. I know you don't necessarily ever spew misinformation, and you are a reliable source for the most part......... however, I'd be interested to know the source of the info. For the life of me I can't find any public, fact based, data to support those numbers. 

And if you can obviously confirm that that Nautique is pumping out G23s and not much else, what the heck else are they selling? A 2000/year production level (excludes centurion and supreme. Total would otherwise be 2600-2700) is easily proven as fact based info.....purely based on Malibus own info. It begs the question..... what the heck else is Nautique selling??? G23 is only 20% of production from a company that only had 5 models in 2015 and 2016?? I'm no math wizard, but if the next 3 models fall of a cliff, the last model must be selling 1000 units or more! Which one would that be?? The 200 that sells less than 50 a year?

like I said, I value your info....... but the numbers don't add up. (At least based on the factual info that is readily available)

Edited August 2, 2017 by TenTwentyOne

[IXFE]

13 minutes ago, TenTwentyOne said:

Fair enough, @IXFE. I know you don't necessarily ever spew misinformation, and you are a reliable source for the most part......... however, I'd be interested to know the source of the info. For the life of me I can't find any public, fact based, data to support those numbers. 

And if you can obviously confirm that that Nautique is pumping out G23s and not much else, what the heck else are they selling? A 2000/year production level (excludes centurion and supreme. Total would otherwise be 2600-2700) is easily proven as fact based info.....purely based on Malibus own info. It begs the question..... what the heck else is Nautique selling??? G23 is only 20% of production from a company that only had 5 models in 2015 and 2016?? I'm no math wizard, but if the next 3 models fall of a cliff, the last model must be selling 1000 units or more! Which one would that be?? The 200 that sells less than 50 a year?

like I said, I value your info....... but the numbers don't add up. (At least based on the factual info that is readily available)

The source is boat registrations (i.e they are just compiling data from Marine Boards around the country).  That's what all manufacturers and dealers use when they quote market share... they all study the same data; I've had this conversation with more than one manufacturer over the years.  It is not public information (at least not for folks like us), nor is it 100% complete because I don't believe it includes international sales.  But it's a pretty good proxy of who's buying what (they can see specific model numbers).  I don't have the full data set at my fingertips so I can't answer your questions beyond what I posted.  I called in a favor to get the data that you see above.  If I had regular access to that database I'd never get any real work done, and I'd be b**** slapping every thread with my newfound wisdom!  Trust me, nobody wins if that happens!   

Sometimes it's fun to have conversations with your dealer about market share just in your state, region, or territory.  Then you get a real sense of which dealer is killing it vs. the dealer who's lagging.  The local data doesn't always follow the trends we see nationally (e.g. for years it was common knowledge that MB was #2 in California behind Malibu... not sure if that's still true, but the source was marine board registrations).    

Mind you, I'm not making any claims about resale value with this data.  The G23 is plenty desirable!  If flipping boats is a proxy for resale (at least in the short term), I had great success with my 23 LSV's (all three sold much faster than my 21's before them).  I've often wondered if the G23 is a good boat for flipping... the price point says no way, but the desirability is so high I'm inclined to say it could work, and I've seen a few guys pull it off.  

[TallRedRider]

5 hours ago, boardjnky4 said:

 

The other thing I don't like about the G23 is that there is no plug n play option. We wakeboard with an extra set of 750s in each rear locker, and have to fill them manually. Gosh the wake is huge, but it really sucks rolling in a $140k boat having to throw the ole tsunami over the side.

It isn't hard to put in sacks on top of the stock ballast in a G23.  I admit it is harder than plug and play, but isn't rocket surgery either.  Many owners don't bother since the stock ballast is already almost the equivalent of having a pair of 750's in the back, if it were a 23 LSV.  

Plug and play is an option, but most everyone orders it.  It is almost like saying the propeller is an option.  

[IXFE]

16 minutes ago, TallRedRider said:

It isn't hard to put in sacks on top of the stock ballast in a G23.  I admit it is harder than plug and play, but isn't rocket surgery either.  Many owners don't bother since the stock ballast is already almost the equivalent of having a pair of 750's in the back, if it were a 23 LSV.  

Plug and play is an option, but most everyone orders it.  It is almost like saying the propeller is an option.  

This was my point... I consider PnP on a Malibu to be part of the stock setup.  

As for G23... isn't the reason most don't add sacs in the lockers because the G23 doesn't like rear weight?  That was the story I got when I demo'd the G23 last fall.  

Put another way... I'm sure there are hard core G owners adding weight to their boats.  Where do they add it?  

[DatTexasBoy]

2 hours ago, teamerickson said:

Yeah! Does anyone know what the margin per boat is on the G23? If I have time I may try and find it. 

I do, but I'd have to kill ya if I told you.

[teamerickson]

Just now, DatTexasBoy said:

I do, but I'd have to kill ya if I told you.

Ha! I mean net revenue per G23.

[billjames]

1 minute ago, DatTexasBoy said:

I do, but I'd have to kill ya if I told you.

It is ok,

Give the figure, and then figure out yourself for that kill part

[TenTwentyOne]

1 hour ago, IXFE said:

The source is boat registrations (i.e they are just compiling data from Marine Boards around the country).  That's what all manufacturers and dealers use when they quote market share... they all study the same data; I've had this conversation with more than one manufacturer over the years.  It is not public information (at least not for folks like us), nor is it 100% complete because I don't believe it includes international sales.  But it's a pretty good proxy of who's buying what (they can see specific model numbers).  I don't have the full data set at my fingertips so I can't answer your questions beyond what I posted.  I called in a favor to get the data that you see above.  If I had regular access to that database I'd never get any real work done, and I'd be b**** slapping every thread with my newfound wisdom!  Trust me, nobody wins if that happens!   

Sometimes it's fun to have conversations with your dealer about market share just in your state, region, or territory.  Then you get a real sense of which dealer is killing it vs. the dealer who's lagging.  The local data doesn't always follow the trends we see nationally (e.g. for years it was common knowledge that MB was #2 in California behind Malibu... not sure if that's still true, but the source was marine board registrations).    

Mind you, I'm not making any claims about resale value with this data.  The G23 is plenty desirable!  If flipping boats is a proxy for resale (at least in the short term), I had great success with my 23 LSV's (all three sold much faster than my 21's before them).  I've often wondered if the G23 is a good boat for flipping... the price point says no way, but the desirability is so high I'm inclined to say it could work, and I've seen a few guys pull it off.  

I appreciate the info, and honesty on source.

That said, I hope you can appreciate my view on the contradicting info, that is actual public knowledge.... 

1) all three of the "top three" are, in fact, putting out fairly close production numbers, with Nautique obviously trailing a bit. Still 2000 isn't all that far behind 2600 in the grand scheme of things.

2) Nautique obviously had a much smaller range of boats, with much less demand in the other models besides the G23. The GS series is much too young to have any data compiled on it. 

So, it just leaves me wondering what the heck Nautique is selling, if they are only selling less than 500 G23s. The numbers don't add up, unless they are also selling around 500 G21s and 500 G25s a year.......which I know isn't the case. 

I, like you, talk to many people in the industry, and I make it a point to ask questions like these. So when multiple sources tell me info that contradicts yours, and the actual obtainable facts support it, I'm gonna go with what actually adds up and makes sense.

Edit- I am on my second G flip, and it has gone very well. 

Edited August 2, 2017 by TenTwentyOne

[DatTexasBoy]

3 minutes ago, IXFE said:

 

Put another way... I'm sure there are hard core G owners adding weight to their boats.  Where do they add it?  

Some are adding for the surf wave, but there are many guys that will tell you it is detrimental to the wave and doesn't do much past a certain point. Most are adding 400-700lbs of lead spread around the boat.

 

You can add what ever you want on the wakeboard wake but most people do not need it. I am one of those that do not, BTW......

Talked to JD Webb at a demo day and they add an extra 4k in weight to stock, but then he said most weekend warriors do not even need the full stock ballast.

[TenTwentyOne]

6 minutes ago, IXFE said:

This was my point... I consider PnP on a Malibu to be part of the stock setup.  

As for G23... isn't the reason most don't add sacs in the lockers because the G23 doesn't like rear weight?  That was the story I got when I demo'd the G23 last fall.  

Put another way... I'm sure there are hard core G owners adding weight to their boats.  Where do they add it?  

You are right. They don't like when just rear weight is added. If you put 750s in the back and want the best wave, with good length, you need to place a dump truck in the bow, like a 23LSV. 

been there, done that on my '16. Didn't bother on my 17, because I like storage, and the girls like the bow.

[TenTwentyOne]

7 minutes ago, DatTexasBoy said:

Some are adding for the surf wave, but there are many guys that will tell you it is detrimental to the wave and doesn't do much past a certain point. Most are adding 400-700lbs of lead spread around the boat.

 

You can add what ever you want on the wakeboard wake but most people do not need it. I am one of those that do not, BTW......

Talked to JD Webb at a demo day and they add an extra 4k in weight to stock, but then he said most weekend warriors do not even need the full stock ballast.

Ya, essentially, for surfing, you would want to add a 1:1 ratio rear/front. Run two 500s in the back, add a 1000 in the bow....... or just add everything in the middle (but you can't fit much. Maybe 600 lbs under the two lounge area seats)

For wake its 2:1 rear/front. Sky is the limit. Stock ballast is way more than any of us can handle though.

[bamabonners]

3 hours ago, TenTwentyOne said:

Settle down, sparky. 

1) This is a G23 related topic from the start. Did you read the thread title??

 

 

 

C.C. don't like us outsiders here... He's made it clear in other threads.  LOL

How are you guys getting the registration info?  Is that published on a site, in financials, etc... ?  I've never seen that specific info before.

[DatTexasBoy]

1 minute ago, bamabonners said:

C.C. don't like us outsiders here... He's made it clear in other threads.  LOL

How are you guys getting the registration info?  Is that published on a site, in financials, etc... ?  I've never seen that specific info before.

I believe only dealers can pull it. @IXFE called in a favor apparently.

[bamabonners]

2 minutes ago, DatTexasBoy said:

I believe only dealers can pull it. @IXFE called in a favor apparently.

@IXFE probably called Mr. Springer... I hear they are tight.  LOL  just giving you crap...   Funny thing is, Mr. Springer would probably give that info if you asked... He's super nice guy.

Edited August 2, 2017 by bamabonners

[TenTwentyOne]

2 minutes ago, DatTexasBoy said:

I believe only dealers can pull it. @IXFE called in a favor apparently.

He must have the connect........ I tried the owners at both dealers I work with, and they had no idea what the heck I was talking about. Said they should be able to get total production numbers for competitors if I really wanted it, but not individual models. 

[DatTexasBoy]

Just now, TenTwentyOne said:

He must have the connect........ I tried the owners at both dealers I work with, and they had no idea what the heck I was talking about. Said they should be able to get total production numbers for competitors if I really wanted it, but not individual models. 

Yeah I'm not sure how he was able to get it broken down, but from what I understand the dealers are constantly looking at boats registered in their area to see how they stack up against the competition. The way it was explained to me it was just done per Manufacturer and not really per Man/model.

[kerpluxal]

33 minutes ago, DatTexasBoy said:

Some are adding for the surf wave, but there are many guys that will tell you it is detrimental to the wave and doesn't do much past a certain point. Most are adding 400-700lbs of lead spread around the boat.

 

You can add what ever you want on the wakeboard wake but most people do not need it. I am one of those that do not, BTW......

Talked to JD Webb at a demo day and they add an extra 4k in weight to stock, but then he said most weekend warriors do not even need the full stock ballast.

I rode in Garrets G.. he does have lead spread around and I can't remember the total amount but that most of it is in the bow. Depending on his crew size determines the amount of additional ballast he adds. On the day that I rode he added an additional 400 in front and 800 in rear on the walk through pad. 

[IXFE]

Marine board data includes model number.  Just like the DMV knows what make and model you drive.  

I'm kinda surprised you guys aren't familiar with the use of this data.  It's frequently used in the industry.  I have more than one source I've asked over the years.  

@ malibuc.c. quoted very similar numbers back on page 2.  Why don't you ask him where his data comes from?  My guess is same place with slightly different time frame.  

[DatTexasBoy]

25 minutes ago, kerpluxal said:

I rode in Garrets G.. he does have lead spread around and I can't remember the total amount but that most of it is in the bow. Depending on his crew size determines the amount of additional ballast he adds. On the day that I rode he added an additional 400 in front and 800 in rear on the walk through pad. 

He is in shallow water and merits the added weight. Put him in 20-30ft and it wouldn't need it, may even be worse for it.

[Fffrank]

I'm also a numbers geek and since the "marine board" data doesn't appear to be congruent with the production numbers from annual reports -- shouldn't we assume that whoever is compiling this "marine board" data is reporting partial/sample data?

[TenTwentyOne]

10 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Marine board data includes model number.  Just like the DMV knows what make and model you drive.  

I'm kinda surprised you guys aren't familiar with the use of this data.  It's frequently used in the industry.  I have more than one source I've asked over the years.  

@ malibuc.c. quoted very similar numbers back on page 2.  Why don't you ask him where his data comes from?  My guess is same place with slightly different time frame.  

So, based on that data, MC and CC must be killing it in the 20-22ft catagories..... especially MC in the 20-21. They haven't even had a 22' in over a year now.... and we know the XStar, X46, and NXTs aren't moving like crazy, right? If the X23 and XT23 numbers are so low, they have to be making it up somewhere. Are they selling 600 of each of the 20-21' models (X20, XT20, and XT21).

i don't know @IXFE....... none of that data makes any sense to me. Unless MC and CC have a couple sleeper models that are outselling anything else in the line, and we don't even know.