17 22MZX PORPOISE PROBLEM ANY IDEAS??

[85 Barefoot]

18 minutes ago, spikew919 said:

Innstead of a asking how many is quite a few, I think you should be asking what the acceptable number going back is. And if the boats had been constructed right and then actually checked by this mythical QC then that number should be zero, and definition of zero is none, nota, zilch! ? Just saying 

I disagree.  Water testing cannot rule out everything, especially tainted gas used by consumer, which I would first suspect if engine "stalled", being caused by a fuel delivery problem.  No EFI anything "stalls" as a result of construction or QC.  There is something else going on.  And if at worst it is a bad fuel pump not blocked or damaged by bad fuel, I still don't fault any QC for that.  

[Steve B.]

6 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

I disagree.  Water testing cannot rule out everything, especially tainted gas used by consumer, which I would first suspect if engine "stalled", being caused by a fuel delivery problem.  No EFI anything "stalls" as a result of construction or QC.  There is something else going on.  And if at worst it is a bad fuel pump not blocked or damaged by bad fuel, I still don't fault any QC for that.  

I'm thinking this is not a bad fuel problem. Lack of fuel... maybe.

Steve B.

[spikew919]

5 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

I disagree.  Water testing cannot rule out everything, especially tainted gas used by consumer, which I would first suspect if engine "stalled", being caused by a fuel delivery problem.  No EFI anything "stalls" as a result of construction or QC.  There is something else going on.  And if at worst it is a bad fuel pump not blocked or damaged by bad fuel, I still don't fault any QC for that.  

Don't think anyone said boats are going back for stalling. Boat went back due to proposing in this instance, and yes a "water test" done correctly would have caught this.  

[85 Barefoot]

Just now, Steve B. said:

I'm thinking this is not a bad fuel problem. Lack of fuel... maybe.

Steve B.

My inclination is that there was trash in gas, and at low flow (idle) not enough flow to overcome the blockage, especially if it has happened multiple times.

[85 Barefoot]

1 minute ago, spikew919 said:

Don't think anyone said boats are going back for stalling. Boat went back due to proposing in this instance, and yes a "water test" done correctly would have caught this.  

No boat is immune from porpoising.  As bottlefed says he has tried the well-known ways to prevent porpoising, I'll take his word for it, and if factory wants a look at it and can correct, I view that as commendable not a criticism.  As to whether it could have been discovered during sea trial, as we all know, circumstances of any boat porpoising all differ.  Even a full tank of gas on bottlefed's MXZ of 500#s was affecting the reproducability of a porpoise.  Even buoyancy of water can affect that.  I've watched the water tests.  Trust me, the test is quite "correct".

[spikew919]

1 minute ago, 85 Barefoot said:

No boat is immune from porpoising.  As bottlefed says he has tried the well-known ways to prevent porpoising, I'll take his word for it, and if factory wants a look at it and can correct, I view that as commendable not a criticism.  As to whether it could have been discovered during sea trial, as we all know, circumstances of any boat porpoising all differ.  Even a full tank of gas on bottlefed's MXZ of 500#s was affecting the reproducability of a porpoise.  Even buoyancy of water can affect that.  I've watched the water tests.  Trust me, the test is quite "correct".

Hate to say this, but water test can't be all that, sometimes if they are happening on every boat, I say this just like on my boat and others. Ask the dealers, boats with heaters especially. After dealers water tested it took 2 gallons of antifreeze to fill the system on my boat, So undoubtedly Malibu's water test does not even get engine hot enough to open thermostat??? Water they are testing in must be like 36 degrees to not get engine up to temp? 

[85 Barefoot]

13 minutes ago, spikew919 said:

Hate to say this, but water test can't be all that, sometimes if they are happening on every boat, I say this just like on my boat and others. Ask the dealers, boats with heaters especially. After dealers water tested it took 2 gallons of antifreeze to fill the system on my boat, So undoubtedly Malibu's water test does not even get engine hot enough to open thermostat??? Water they are testing in must be like 36 degrees to not get engine up to temp? 

Actually is it pretty exhaustive.  I've watched Malibu and Correct Craft.  They're essentially identical.  But there is a balance of simulating a full day on the lake and testing without putting too much time on the ticker.

What is happening on "every" boat?  Do you have a sampling of all 3800 whatever boats this year?  TMC represents a miniscule amount of the boats made, and is often where people wind up only after an issue.  

But, you are correct on the antifreeze level on some early 235s with dual heaters did not fully bleed.  Per my dealer, that's also been addressed, but in my opinion, fluid level and prep is a dealer responsibility.  If you've never seen how much prep work there is upon arrival at a dealer, you'd be surprised.  In no way does Malibu ship boats saying they're ready to go (no one does).

 

[spikew919]

26 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

Actually is it pretty exhaustive.  I've watched Malibu and Correct Craft.  They're essentially identical.  But there is a balance of simulating a full day on the lake and testing without putting too much time on the ticker.

What is happening on "every" boat?  Do you have a sampling of all 3800 whatever boats this year?  TMC represents a miniscule amount of the boats made, and is often where people wind up only after an issue.  

But, you are correct on the antifreeze level on some early 235s with dual heaters did not fully bleed.  Per my dealer, that's also been addressed, but in my opinion, fluid level and prep is a dealer responsibility.  If you've never seen how much prep work there is upon arrival at a dealer, you'd be surprised.  In no way does Malibu ship boats saying they're ready to go (no one does).

 

Was more than just 235's was 23's also. And just so you know. Once engine opens thermostat, and air gets in system,steam heats  up and throws code due to temperature.  The boats that were not filled, if ran up to temp should have shown over heated. 

And yes I know tmc represents a small portion.  

And as far as "every", I'm not sure comprehend what my statement meant.if say line is behind or weather does not permit, do some boats go out without water test? Can you say without a doubt that never happens? I mean while you were watching correct craft, Malibu might have snuck a few by you. ? 

Its human nature, I don't believe for a second that Malibu's employees might overlook things to get finished or even be told to get through faster to turn out more numbers.  

Edited July 21, 2017 by spikew919

[85 Barefoot]

20 minutes ago, spikew919 said:

Was more than just 235's was 23's also. And just so you know. Once engine opens thermostat, and air gets in system,steam heats  up and throws code due to temperature.  The boats that were not filled, if ran up to temp should have shown over heated. 

And yes I know tmc represents a small portion.  

And as far as "every", I'm not sure comprehend what my statement meant.if say line is behind or weather does not permit, do some boats go out without water test? Can you say without a doubt that never happens? I mean while you were watching correct craft, Malibu might have snuck a few by you. ? 

Its human nature, I don't believe for a second that Malibu's employees might overlook things to get finished or even be told to get through faster to turn out more numbers.  

 

What "steam" are you talking about?  It's a closed cooled system using antifreeze not water and at these temps the antifreeze won't "steam".  It is true that temp sensors can't measure air temp if there is an air pocket, which, after the system bleeds will be voided, hence the need to add antifreeze.  But that would not throw an overheat necessarily because the temp sensor can't measure air.  Hence why there are so many boats that get cooked with no high temp readings.  An issue that is not unique to Malibu.

As to weather, they test in all sorts of weather, I've been there personally in the rain, and yes I can say with certainty, no boat leaves without being water tested.  Each station on the line is tracked and documented as is the water test results.  When a boat comes back from a test with an issue it gets addressed immediately.  Throughout the day random boats are audited with participation from each department.  If a boat has an issue along the line it comes off the line immediately to be rectified.  I do disagree that employees skip anything when every step is documented and forever recorded who says they did what.  Believe it or not, I've never been to the factory and concluded the employees don't care about doing a good job.  They do.

[DarkSide]

What should be alarming is this is a small percentage of the actual production.   Take that information and pair it with the number of issues, represented by the membership and there is a significant number of defects leaving the factory.     

Obviously there are also some good ones leaving as well, but the number of issues seams to be on the rise, as the emphasis has shifted to quantity.

[BadgerBoater55]

5 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

What should be alarming is this is a small percentage of the actual production.   Take that information and pair it with the number of issues, represented by the membership and there is a significant number of defects leaving the factory.     

Obviously there are also some good ones leaving as well, but the number of issues seams to be on the rise, as the emphasis has shifted to quantity.

I think one thing to consider is, when people have a problem and google it... they probably end up here.  With the exhaustive amount (in a good way) of content that has been contributed on this forum, it usually ends up as a first page result from a google search. They come here to post the issue, and generally the vets of the site have pretty educated fixes in MOST CASES.

I am not at all saying Malibu is perfect, because they aren't.  But to say they have "significant number of defects" is quite unfair.  Especially when they produce the largest volume of boats.  More boats out in the market, more opportunity for issues to arise.  And yes, I am sure QC does slip a little bit as the volume increases, but again they are handmade boats and they will ALWAYS have some issues.  Lets not wipe dealership hands clean either, pretty easy for them to point carelessness (zip ties are a great example) back to the factory.  Your dealer needs to provide a high level of service, which is their JOB. Malibu's job is to build the boats.  Shouldn't a dealer water test reveal a porpoising boat?

[85 Barefoot]

18 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

What should be alarming is this is a small percentage of the actual production.   Take that information and pair it with the number of issues, represented by the membership and there is a significant number of defects leaving the factory.     

Obviously there are also some good ones leaving as well, but the number of issues seams to be on the rise, as the emphasis has shifted to quantity.

What are these number of issues on the "rise"?  What am I missing?  Were you involved and following this industry 10 years ago?  On average the number of issues I'm seeing and hearing of in 2017 are significantly lower than that of 2008 era.  Malibu's warranty expense has gone DOWN per IXFE's exhaustive analysis.  

Who is more likely to make it to TMC with a new boat?  someone with an issue or someone with no issues?  Obviously the former.  This forum in no way reflects a scientific sampling of production.

In fact, I've yet to see what "defects left the factory".  It's like telling the 2 257 owners on centurion crew right now with software trouble that they left with defects.  No they didn't.  Factory can only replicate so much.  But don't get me started on the lunacy of a design that requires engine removal to change the steering cable.  Did my neighbor's Ri leave the Centurion factory with a defect when it had to have its engine replaced?  Or did it check out and just had an issue when it made it to the end user?  It's the latter.  Factories can only do so much.  If you're not prepared for glitches wakeboats should not be your hobby (new ones anyway).

Recently I've had 3 new boats.  Zero issues.  I take that back, my amp board on my 2016 VTX fell during shipping.  Other than that, nada, zilch, nothing.  There is nothing "alarming" about anyone buying a brand new model and finding something off.  

Edited July 21, 2017 by 85 Barefoot

[bbattiste247]

13 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

What are these number of issues on the "rise"?  What am I missing?  Were you involved and following this industry 10 years ago?  On average the number of issues I'm seeing and hearing of in 2017 are significantly lower than that of 2008 era.  Malibu's warranty expense has gone DOWN per IXFE's exhaustive analysis.  

Who is more likely to make it to TMC with a new boat?  someone with an issue or someone with no issues?  Obviously the former.  This forum in no way reflects a scientific sampling of production.

Recently I've had 3 new boats.  Zero issues.  I take that back, my amp board on my 2016 VTX fell during shipping.  Other than that, nada, zilch, nothing.  There is nothing "alarming" about anyone buying a brand new model and finding something off.  

I had a 2016 23 lsv and I had a number of problems at first, but they diminished after a few months. Then I bought a 2017 23 lsv and it has had just a few problems, but not any where near that of my 16.

[85 Barefoot]

I'm not saying problems don't exist, what I'm getting at are where are these problems that should have been caught in Tennessee? 

bbattiste, what problems did u have?

[spikew919]

54 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

 

What "steam" are you talking about?  It's a closed cooled system using antifreeze not water and at these temps the antifreeze won't "steam".  It is true that temp sensors can't measure air temp if there is an air pocket, which, after the system bleeds will be voided, hence the need to add antifreeze.  But that would not throw an overheat necessarily because the temp sensor can't measure air.  Hence why there are so many boats that get cooked with no high temp readings.  An issue that is not unique to Malibu.

As to weather, they test in all sorts of weather, I've been there personally in the rain, and yes I can say with certainty, no boat leaves without being water tested.  Each station on the line is tracked and documented as is the water test results.  When a boat comes back from a test with an issue it gets addressed immediately.  Throughout the day random boats are audited with participation from each department.  If a boat has an issue along the line it comes off the line immediately to be rectified.  I do disagree that employees skip anything when every step is documented and forever recorded who says they did what.  Believe it or not, I've never been to the factory and concluded the employees don't care about doing a good job.  They do.

You have no clue about closed loop cooling obviously. When the empty lines let air in the steam is then formed and yes a yes a heat code is thrown at that point. That is generally when dealer finds it due to code. 

When air is entrained in antifreeze it lowers  its effective boiling point. Ask any mechanic. 

 

 

 

 

 

[spikew919]

44 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

I'm not saying problems don't exist, what I'm getting at are where are these problems that should have been caught in Tennessee? 

bbattiste, what problems did u have?

Oh you want issues, here's some. My Bimini brackets on wrong sides in G4 tower, my obeservers compartment door only opened half way, cockpit table mounts upside down, was not properly filled with antifreeze, antiskid tape under rear storage and beside drivers seat rolling up due to surface not cleaned before sticking, heater hose clamps at heater core under observers seat, never put at hose end and tightened, were just loose on hose,the one behind helm,one was tight other loose, bolts holding swim platform brackets through transom were handy, also the Allen bolts on tie eyes on back all 3 of n each side loose, gel rough all the way around just below rub well, in bow area and around windshield and gel rough and not polished, bolts through lounge seat loose and too long, bolts to rear flip up seats loose, exhaust not properly aligned when engine installed putting too much heat and pressure on rubbers, so blew out, screws over fuel tank,  1wrung off and 1 tight ready loose. Loose screws under sea deck at rear walk through. Have to remove sea deck to tighten, staples left in top of trailer bunks eating hull of boat up. Winshief 1/8th" out of align. And plastic tee to fuel vent shattered. 

What issues do they catch?

[DarkSide]

85 am aware every manufacturer has issues, and I applaud Malibu and the dealer for stepping up.   

What issues?  We are discussing this in a thread about Porpoising, likely due to defective mould.   Should porpoising not have been caught during the water test, if it is this significant as we are led to believe. 

Windshields are falling through walkways, yes i understand this has been isolated and resolved, but they left the factory that way.  M235 trailer issues, etc

I completely agree on new boats having some issues, i know of 1 257 that went back to factory, and one that blew a tranny, everyone has issues.  However it does appear the number of issues is rising, maybe i am mistaken though. 

[Bawshogg]

As price goes up people expect more "quality" for their hard earned money .

I can attest that I have NEVER had a new boat that didn't have its share of infancy issues . ALL I mean EVERY one I have owned has had it's little problems that need to be addressed, including my current boat. I am accustomed to it and most of the small things I typically handle myself to keep MYSELF on the water. My 2007 VTX was probably the best that I have ever had when it comes to issues. I think I had one early issue with the MMDC and that was IT.  MY 257 has been pretty solid this far also. Had a bad temp sender and the usual software glitches, cracked ballast fitting, and loose ramfill vent hose. That's about it. NOTHING major.

When we start talking about MAJOR hull defects , as MINOR as slapping a piece of duct tape on it ...YES , this is something that NEVER should have left the factory this way.

I have seen a few Videos running around the web now of MXZ slapping and IT's BAD, REAL BAD.

I don't think you see near the standards that the general public is putting on these boats for QC if they were half the price. There's too much emphasis by ALL manufactures to shove out new technology , keep the prices increasing and keep your captive audience needing the next biggest baddest "whatever it may be". That's a society issue mostly nowadays. Everything is disposable, and we cant take time to constantly improve something over a period of several years as it used to be.

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Bawshogg

[85 Barefoot]

1 hour ago, spikew919 said:

You have no clue about closed loop cooling obviously. When the empty lines let air in the steam is then formed and yes a yes a heat code is thrown at that point. That is generally when dealer finds it due to code. 

When air is entrained in antifreeze it lowers  its effective boiling point. Ask any mechanic. 

 

 

 

 

 

This is not correct.  Actually part is but there's no sense in discussing further.

 

 Is this your second inboard?

[Malibuzer]

6 minutes ago, Bawshogg said:

As price goes up people expect more "quality" for their hard earned money .

I can attest that I have NEVER had a new boat that didn't have its share of infancy issues . ALL I mean EVERY one I have owned has had it's little problems that need to be addressed, including my current boat. I am accustomed to it and most of the small things I typically handle myself to keep MYSELF on the water. My 2007 VTX was probably the best that I have ever had when it comes to issues. I think I had one early issue with the MMDC and that was IT.  MY 257 has been pretty solid this far also. Had a bad temp sender and the usual software glitches, cracked ballast fitting, and loose ramfill vent hose. That's about it. NOTHING major.

When we start talking about MAJOR hull defects , as MINOR as slapping a piece of duct tape on it ...YES , this is something that NEVER should have left the factory this way.

I have seen a few Videos running around the web now of MXZ slapping and IT's BAD, REAL BAD.

I don't think you see near the standards that the general public is putting on these boats for QC if they were half the price. There's too much emphasis by ALL manufactures to shove out new technology , keep the prices increasing and keep your captive audience needing the next biggest baddest "whatever it may be". That's a society issue mostly nowadays. Everything is disposable, and we cant take time to constantly improve something over a period of several years as it used to be.

 

Links?

 

[DarkSide]

1 hour ago, 85 Barefoot said:

I'm not saying problems don't exist, what I'm getting at are where are these problems that should have been caught in Tennessee? 

bbattiste, what problems did u have?

He was one of the shattering windshields for sure, i dont know if there have been more issues.

[85 Barefoot]

1 hour ago, spikew919 said:

Oh you want issues, here's some. My Bimini brackets on wrong sides in G4 tower, my obeservers compartment door only opened half way, cockpit table mounts upside down, was not properly filled with antifreeze, antiskid tape under rear storage and beside drivers seat rolling up due to surface not cleaned before sticking, heater hose clamps at heater core under observers seat, never put at hose end and tightened, were just loose on hose,the one behind helm,one was tight other loose, bolts holding swim platform brackets through transom were handy, also the Allen bolts on tie eyes on back all 3 of n each side loose, gel rough all the way around just below rub well, in bow area and around windshield and gel rough and not polished, bolts through lounge seat loose and too long, bolts to rear flip up seats loose, exhaust not properly aligned when engine installed putting too much heat and pressure on rubbers, so blew out, screws over fuel tank,  1wrung off and 1 tight ready loose. Loose screws under sea deck at rear walk through. Have to remove sea deck to tighten, staples left in top of trailer bunks eating hull of boat up. Winshief 1/8th" out of align. And plastic tee to fuel vent shattered. 

What issues do they catch?

Dealers mount biminis.  Have no idea what you're saying about exhaust not being aligned and contributing to an increase in heat.  I didn't even know fuel vents were a thjng since went to a ventless system.   Have no idea what bolts through seats you're referring to either.  Whatever.  Sounds like dealer let things get to you before a thorough inspection to me but whatever.  If you're unhappy just sell it.   Boom.  Problem solved.  

 

8 minutes ago, Malibuzer said:

Links?

 

I saw it on wake world.  Read rear ballast caused I think too but forget.  

[spikew919]

10 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

This is not correct.  Actually part is but there's no sense in discussing further.

 

 Is this your second inboard?

Nope this is my fourth,and even if was my first, would still be the same, same lack of QC, and all vehicles with closed loop and race street bikes, aka crotch rockets, racing dirtbikes, racing four wheelers, Its all the same, you get air in system it overheats, now on traditional closed loop not reverse flow. It's not as bad. But reverse flow, it shows up quickly. 

[spikew919]

5 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

Dealers mount biminis.  Have no idea what you're saying about exhaust not being aligned and contributing to an increase in heat.  I didn't even know fuel vents were a thjng since went to a ventless system.   Have no idea what bolts through seats you're referring to either.  Whatever.  Sounds like dealer let things get to you before a thorough inspection to me but whatever.  If you're unhappy just sell it.   Boom.  Problem solved.  

 

I saw it on wake world.  Read rear ballast caused I think too but forget.  

Now your showing your clueless, factory installs Bimini on G4 tower. Try again 

fuel fill vent Tee. 

 We love the boat just wish it had actually been put together better.  And I wouldn't expect you to understand exhaust issue. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by spikew919

[85 Barefoot]

6 minutes ago, spikew919 said:

Now your showing your clueless, factory installs Bimini on G4 tower. Try again

The new four position flip Bimini, correct?