Batteries

[shawndoggy]

Just now, MadMan said:

Count me in that group too....

(haha at home I'm slowly converting everything over to motion detection...)

[shawndoggy]

Just now, minnmarker said:

If your kids and I are allowed in the same boat things could get messy!  Perhaps we are confusing the Blue Sea ACR switch with a regular old A,B,A+B,Off switch?

Yep, I'm pretty dim about some things.   It's not the on/off issue I am concerned with, it's the A,B,A+B issue that concerns me.  Leaving things connected when they should not be (and draining both batteries) - or connecting two batteries in vastly different charge states - that kind of thing.  There's really no need for a switch that I, in my intellectually diminished state, can understand except for the possibility that you somehow drain your starting battery (which is isolated by the ACR) while listening to your stereo which is being powered only by your stereo battery.  I think the scenario where I (or your kids) leave the batteries connected (by either A/B or Blue Sea switch) and then drain both batteries while listening to the stereo is much more likely.

I'm referring to the on-off-all switch in the add-a-battery kit.  Gives peace of mind of having everything "turned off" at the end of the day (no parasitic drain), allows you to wire up a dual bank charger to actually charge two batteries independently, and allows you to combine both batteries manually if you have a problem with your starting battery.

Edited April 5, 2017 by shawndoggy

[minnmarker]

Just now, shawndoggy said:

I'm referring to the on-off-all switch in the add-a-battery kit.  Gives peace of mind of having everything "turned off" at the end of the day (no parasitic drain), allows you to wire up a dual bank charger to actually charge two batteries independently, and allows you to combine both batteries manually if you have a problem with your starting battery.

We all get peace of mind in different ways.  I'm more concerned with draining the starting battery on the water after someone turns the switch to "COMBINE," you're more concerned with parasitic drain on shore.  You probably have fewer absent minded knuckle heads on your boat...

OP can decide what camp he's in.

[shawndoggy]

1 minute ago, minnmarker said:

We all get peace of mind in different ways.  I'm more concerned with draining the starting battery on the water after someone turns the switch to "COMBINE," you're more concerned with parasitic drain on shore.  You probably have fewer absent minded knuckle heads on your boat...

OP can decide what camp he's in.

Why would anyone mess with your switch? 

[minnmarker]

Just now, shawndoggy said:

Why would anyone mess with your switch? 

I'm not thinking nefarious behavior here but many years ago, on a house boat, someone did mess with a switch they should not have and all the batteries were combined and drained.  Fortunately we were securely anchored.

Even with the admittedly small risk of on the water battery draining I just don't see the value in switches when we have ACRs available.  The human is often the failure mechanism in a electrical/mechanical system.

I'm sometimes a bit different but enjoy being so...

[Gavin17]

30 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

We all get peace of mind in different ways.  I'm more concerned with draining the starting battery on the water after someone turns the switch to "COMBINE," you're more concerned with parasitic drain on shore.  You probably have fewer absent minded knuckle heads on your boat...

OP can decide what camp he's in.

I'm on the fence. I like the idea of the ACR for safety. 

I like the idea of keeping my switch because it's simple and effective and doesn't involve me buying anything else.  Generally I try to not have a boat full of knuckleheads but our first baby is on the way so....

I don't even really use the switch.  We're not known for stopping and blasting music so last year my switch was always on both and I never ran the batteries down.  The only time I'd use the switch is for prolonged stopping w/ music.  Or turning it to off when the boat was sitting on the trailer for awhile.

If I'm going to keep the switch I'd like to know that it works though.  The most likely bad situation I can think of is not someone playing w/ the Perko switch without my knowledge but someone bumping a rocker switch on the dash and leaving the lights or stereo on when the boat was not in use and running down the batteries.  It seems to me like the best way to prevent this is to A. make the Perko switch I have already have work and turn the boat off when in storage or B. use an ACR.  Since the ACR involves buying an ACR I may try option A first. Really I think they're both pretty good options.   

[jjackkrash]

On 4/3/2017 at 7:02 PM, The Hulk said:

Spend some jack and get some LiFePo4 batteries.. pure awesomeness.. and expensive but nothing compares.. bad for ballast weight though due to being so light ha. Or just get one for stereo it will handle your power/amps fine and u can leave one for starting.. 

I run LiPo batteries in RC cars, but they have special charging requirements; do the LiFePo4 batteries for boats and cars have special charging requirements?  

[MLA]

19 minutes ago, Gavin17 said:

I'm on the fence. I like the idea of the ACR for safety. 

An ACR alone, as in no switch, does not add any additional layers of safety. In reality, it can leave stranded much easier. There was a thread here going a month or two back. Im not going to retype everything stated there. Try and dig it up for tons of info.   

[sonny20]

+1 ACR has its advantages but can leave you stranded more than a less risky switch 

[Gavin17]

So my current plan is to use 2 big batteries and wire everything thru the perko switch I already have.  I bought 2 group 29 battery boxes and the on board charger today.  I'm going to lay it all out this weekend and see what goes where and buy the new wiring I need.  

I'm afraid of a few things.  

1. If I have to extend the alternator or starter wires to reach the new battery location what's the best way?  

2. What if the Perko switch can't handle all the extra wires?  I'm not sure that everything will physically fit.  If It doesn't I can use things like busbars and distribution blocks to consolidate but the the more connections I have to make the more room for problems down the road. Not to mention the higher amperage busbars are kind of expensive. Anyway I'll try and post photos this weekend. 

[MLA]

1 hour ago, Gavin17 said:

If I have to extend the alternator or starter wires to reach the new battery

those cables go to the switch, which is already in place, correct?

1 hour ago, Gavin17 said:

2. What if the Perko switch can't handle all the extra wires?  I'm not sure that everything will physically fit.

this is down side of the perko. Thats why I prefer the blue sea switch. Small studs that are also short. One way in/out for the cables and the depth of the back is also very shallow. A bus or remote stud is far better than too many lugs stacked on a stud. 

[minnmarker]

16 hours ago, sonny20 said:

+1 ACR has its advantages but can leave you stranded more than a less risky switch 

Educate me. How?

[Gavin17]

@MLA Thanks for setting me straight... Again.  You've been most helpful.  

I believe you're right.  The cords that run the length of the boat, alternator and starter, are already wired to the switch.  The only ones I may have to extend are the switch to battery cables and that will be easy.  I may need to add a bus to fit everything but oh well. 

[MLA]

1 hour ago, minnmarker said:

Educate me. How?

In a scenario where you have two banks isolated from each other, no manual switch and only an ACR to contribute alternator voltage to the house bank when engine is running, What happens when the main cranking banks fails? Do you break out the jumper cables or jump box? get out the wrenches and swap a house battery to the main cranking side? In a setup with a manual switch, you have the ability to either combine the banks or choose the house bank all together.

Depending on the ACR, you may have the option of manually closing it, combining the banks, but you have to keep in mind its current draw capacity and the average draw of a starter.  

[minnmarker]

So spontaneous battery failure is the risk? I'll take my chances on that over human error. YMMV.

[formulaben]

36 minutes ago, MLA said:

In a scenario where you have two banks isolated from each other, no manual switch and only an ACR to contribute alternator voltage to the house bank when engine is running, What happens when the main cranking banks fails? Do you break out the jumper cables or jump box? get out the wrenches and swap a house battery to the main cranking side? In a setup with a manual switch, you have the ability to either combine the banks or choose the house bank all together.

Depending on the ACR, you may have the option of manually closing it, combining the banks, but you have to keep in mind its current draw capacity and the average draw of a starter.  

What does that mean?  There are a lot of ifs in that entire response...@Gavin17 never really said how his 2 batteries were wires, so I'll offer this: IF you set one battery to house/stereo and IF you put the other battery as just a starter only, I really don't see how an ACR will do anything other than help the situation.  I'll again offer my advice, get a Blue Seas ACR add-a-battery kit and wire it as per Shawndoggy's approved wiring schematic and then be happy and done with it.

[shawndoggy]

Just now, formulaben said:

What does that mean?  There are a lot of ifs in that entire response...@Gavin17 never really said how his 2 batteries were wires, so I'll offer this: IF you set one battery to house/stereo and IF you put the other battery as just a starter only, I really don't see how an ACR will do anything other than help the situation.  I'll again offer my advice, get a Blue Seas ACR add-a-battery kit and wire it as per Shawndoggy's approved wiring schematic and then be happy and done with it.

Right, but @minnmarker tells people to wire up just an ACR with no off-on-all switch because of the very silly risk that somebody is going to sneak around his boat and turn the switch way too far to the yellow caution detente and combine his batteries and defeat the ACR.  He's wrong, @MLA is right.

[formulaben]

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you.    But I will say that in the scenario that @MLAoffers, you easily could just swap batteries...inconvenient, but who the heck has a Malibu and runs a stereo without a multi-bank battery switch?  It just seems insane to me.

[Slurpee]

On 4/5/2017 at 1:56 PM, jjackkrash said:

I run LiPo batteries in RC cars, but they have special charging requirements; do the LiFePo4 batteries for boats and cars have special charging requirements?  

Yes. Lead Acid battery charging algorithms are not the same as Lithium Ion batteries. Fortunately they're not unrealistically far off.  It's basically a constant current (not to exceed a specific level) until a voltage is reached.  Then it transitions to a constant voltage and the current tapers off.   Lead can take much larger charging currents, but end the same way.  So Lead is more compatible with Li+ charging than vice versa.  Now, unless the large format LiFePo4 battery has an amazing protection pack and master board built in (it won't), then you run the risk of violating the charging specs and failing the battery.  Typically the pack will fail gracefully.  Sometimes not.  This isn't the newsworthy event that you'd expect though.  While failing a Li+ battery creates an exothermic reaction - no matter the cathode materials - the ignition temperature of a Phosphate (PO4) based battery is too high (nearly all the time) for a self-sustaining little Sun that melts a hole in whatever is underneath it.  So you just get a nice strawberry soda smell that may or may not be carcinogenic. [I think I'm having a PTSD episode here]

These LiPO4 cells are considered safe Li+ batteries for motive applications (you know... because of crashes, wrecks, us knuckleheads).  It's the Lithium Cobalt Oxide (pay attention to OXIDE) batteries in our phones and stuff that are little demons in disguise if they fail.  The ignition temperature is low and they come with their own fuel sources in the form of Lithium and Oxygen.  But we consumers want that phone that lasts all day so we go with the highest energy density recipe which is cobalt oxide or some similar flavor.  PO4 batteries don't have the energy storage density by a long shot relatively speaking.

Luckily, a good modern charger designed for the purpose can tell if it's hooked to a Lithium Ion pack and adjust accordingly by watching the battery as it applies a controlled test current.

The chargers you get in RC cars are not often very smart.  Even high end RC cars have some pretty mundane chargers that expect to only ever be hooked to a couple specific battery packs.  They cut corners everywhere else in the charger.  So there is a lot of language about special charging requirements.  It's true, but as in all things there is a bigger picture.  You're right to ask the question.

[jjackkrash]

I run dual bank (house and starting) with blue seas ACR add-a-battery, plus the off, on, combine manual switch.  I can't see any downside to having the on, off, combine manual switch.

I have had to use the "combine" switch on several occasions to get started.  Flip switch, combine, turn key, go skiing.  If given the choice between flipping a switch and starting my boat, on the one hand, and unhooking and swapping batteries out in the middle of the lake with a boat full of people, well, that's a no brainer.  

Edited April 8, 2017 by jjackkrash

[jjackkrash]

Just now, jjackkrash said:

I run dual bank (house and starting) with blue seas ACR add-a-battery, plus the off, on, combine manual switch.  I can't see any downside to having the on, off, combine manual switch.

I have had to use the "combine" switch on several occasions to get started.  Flip switch, combine, turn key, go skiing.  If given the choice between flipping a switch and starting my boat, on the one hand, and unhooking and swapping batteries out in the middle of the lake with a boat full go people, well, that's a no brainer.  

 

27 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Right, but @minnmarker tells people to wire up just an ACR with no off-on-all switch because of the very silly risk that somebody is going to sneak around his boat and turn the switch way too far to the yellow caution detente and combine his batteries and defeat the ACR.  He's wrong, @MLA is right.

My switch is pretty hidden.  In fact, its better than a key; turn it to off and the boat isn't going anywhere unless you really know where to look.

[minnmarker]

We'll at least I made everyone's evening a little more interesting

Cheers!

[MLA]

1 hour ago, formulaben said:

What does that mean?  There are a lot of ifs in that entire response...@Gavin17 never really said how his 2 batteries were wires, so I'll offer this: IF you set one battery to house/stereo and IF you put the other battery as just a starter only, I really don't see how an ACR will do anything other than help the situation.  I'll again offer my advice, get a Blue Seas ACR add-a-battery kit and wire it as per Shawndoggy's approved wiring schematic and then be happy and done with it.

1) he did state how is 1/2/BOTH switch is wired. 

If you have ONLY an ACR and dont see how it works, you need to did deeper. 

2) the blue sea add-a-battery kit is WAY more advanced than an ACR only setup. 

3) IIRC, shawndoggys approved schematic was edited by someone to make it more approved   

[formulaben]

19 minutes ago, MLA said:

1) he did state how is 1/2/BOTH switch is wired. 

If you have ONLY an ACR and dont see how it works, you need to did deeper. 

2) the blue sea add-a-battery kit is WAY more advanced than an ACR only setup. 

3) IIRC, shawndoggys approved schematic was edited by someone to make it more approved   

Guess I can't read...nowhere do I see where he states if he has house/stereo loads separate from starter circuit.  The 1/2/Both switch is worthless (to me) if everything is wired to a common circuit.

[MadMan]

I removed the 1/2/both switch when I got my boat.  The advantage of being able to switch batteries to start my boat is pretty small, my house battery always gets charged between starts because our sets are usually > 20 minutes.  To me,the liability of have the switch, is you've just introduced a bunch more connections to come loose.