Malibu to marinize own GM engines

[Tims]

It will be interesting to see how deep Malibu is investing in this operation. Are they going to cast their own exhaust manifolds, bolt engines to dyno's / tune maps,  and develop new drive system innovations? Or will it be a big warehouse space where they bolt on everyone else stuff? 

[23LSVOwner]

8 hours ago, ChainSetter said:

Depends on what "one of those customers" means. If feeling that for 90K a boat shouldn't have a stress cracked d rings, should have a working wedge, a dash that doesn't flicker, a BT stereo that connects, a Bimini and boat cover with seams that hold together in the first year, working trailer LEDs etc... 

For the kind of money new Malibu's cost the expectation should be perfection 

"one of those customers" means someone who is demanding and unrealistic. I agree that you should not have those issues but if you are being a total a** to the dealer guess what happens?

 

Very few understand that old adage, you catch more flies with honey....

 

Show me a "perfect" boat and give me 1 hour on it. I'll find enough to certainly disqualify it from being perfect.

[DarkSide]

3 hours ago, Tims said:

It will be interesting to see how deep Malibu is investing in this operation. Are they going to cast their own exhaust manifolds, bolt engines to dyno's / tune maps,  and develop new drive system innovations? Or will it be a big warehouse space where they bolt on everyone else stuff? 

I obviously have no inside knowledge, I would suspect they will start generic of the shelf.   Then progress into some of thier own parts.    

In my world you make one change at a time, and test it.  If you change multiple things and results aren't what you expect, where is the culprit?  So rolling out thier own, parts, tune etc simultaneously, probably not the safe move. 

On the overall quality front.  Again I believe manufacturers ALL OF THEM are doing the best they can.  I met with my new factory rep and dealer last week.  I told them that I know it is not thier intention, but I fully expect to have a few minor issues.  I also told them I am OK with some minor issues, it will not be a problem for me until the issues become Chronic or Severe.  I don't want my boat living at the dealer, but 3-5 visits for minor crap is to be expected.  It's when it turns to 15-20 visits or catastrophic failures that I start to have issues.   

Edited December 20, 2016 by DarkSide

[bamabonners]

3 hours ago, 23LSVOwner said:

"one of those customers" means someone who is demanding and unrealistic. I agree that you should not have those issues but if you are being a total a** to the dealer guess what happens?

 

Very few understand that old adage, you catch more flies with honey....

 

Show me a "perfect" boat and give me 1 hour on it. I'll find enough to certainly disqualify it from being perfect.

I don't totally agree this line of thinking.  A GOOD dealer shouldn't have to have their a** kissed in order to work on a boat for a customer.  Maybe because I work in support, but I couldn't imagine any of my customers ever feeling this way when they need help from me.  Granted, I'm not advocating for being a douche canoe to the dealer, but a relationship is two ways.  If the relationship with  your dealer is one way, time to find a new dealer.

[23LSVOwner]

1 hour ago, bamabonners said:

I don't totally agree this line of thinking.  A GOOD dealer shouldn't have to have their a** kissed in order to work on a boat for a customer.  Maybe because I work in support, but I couldn't imagine any of my customers ever feeling this way when they need help from me.  Granted, I'm not advocating for being a douche canoe to the dealer, but a relationship is two ways.  If the relationship with  your dealer is one way, time to find a new dealer.

 

I wasn't saying you need to kiss the dealers a**. I was saying to not be one.

 

 

[Tims]

3 hours ago, DarkSide said:

I obviously have no inside knowledge, I would suspect they will start generic of the shelf.   Then progress into some of thier own parts.    

In my world you make one change at a time, and test it.  If you change multiple things and results aren't what you expect, where is the culprit?  So rolling out thier own, parts, tune etc simultaneously, probably not the safe move. 

On the overall quality front.  Again I believe manufacturers ALL OF THEM are doing the best they can.  I met with my new factory rep and dealer last week.  I told them that I know it is not thier intention, but I fully expect to have a few minor issues.  I also told them I am OK with some minor issues, it will not be a problem for me until the issues become Chronic or Severe.  I don't want my boat living at the dealer, but 3-5 visits for minor crap is to be expected.  It's when it turns to 15-20 visits or catastrophic failures that I start to have issues.   

 

It is a very possible path for them to take. However, just buying off the shelf items might not really yield them much marketing value or total cost benefit. In my line of work (large scale consumer manufacturing) we constantly battle over the true value of vertical integration vs outsourcing and the right answer is not always easy to find. I am assuming that Malibu would be one of the smallest customers of the GM marine division which might impact cost. 

Does anyone know if there are similar boat manufactures out there (with comparable volume to Malibu) doing the same thing? I can't think of any off the top of my head. 

If only one good things comes out of this, I hope that Malibu creates a one step, 5 minute process that winterizes the powertrain. 

Edited December 20, 2016 by Tims

[bamabonners]

I'd be happy with a heater that has a drain line for winterizing so I don't have to disconnect another hose.  Mine are a PITA to remove....

Interesting point @Tims  if they just by bolt on products, I'm not seeing how they can save money.   Now, if they bring a game changer to the engine, then they could be in a position to charge more...

Edited December 20, 2016 by bamabonners

[shawndoggy]

8 minutes ago, bamabonners said:

I'd be happy with a heater that has a drain line for winterizing so I don't have to disconnect another hose.  Mine are a PITA to remove....

That's a super duper easy diy.

[bamaboy]

1 hour ago, Tims said:

If only one good things comes out of this, I hope that Malibu creates a one step, 5 minute process that winterizes the powertrain. 

Have you seen the new PCM setup on the H5 and H6?  It takes me about 5 minutes to winterize the engine.  Literally.  There are 9 big hand tightening/loosening drain plugs.  There is a place holder next to the block that you screw them into that has each spot labelled.  When all the holes are full, you're all set.  

 

Expect the other guys (indmar, Ilmor, etc) to copy this soon.  It's awesome.  

Edited December 20, 2016 by bamaboy

[DarkSide]

54 minutes ago, Tims said:

 

It is a very possible path for them to take. However, just buying off the shelf items might not really yield them much marketing value or total cost benefit. In my line of work (large scale consumer manufacturing) we constantly battle over the true value of vertical integration vs outsourcing and the right answer is not always easy to find. I am assuming that Malibu would be one of the smallest customers of the GM marine division which might impact cost. 

Does anyone know if there are similar boat manufactures out there (with comparable volume to Malibu) doing the same thing? I can't think of any off the top of my head. 

If only one good things comes out of this, I hope that Malibu creates a one step, 5 minute process that winterizes the powertrain. 

Correct Craft bought PCM, in oct 2014, in essence bringing engine building in house.  The same time purchasing pleasure craft engine group, (Crusader).  At the time of purchase PCM was providing engines to Nautique and Centurion.  Crusader sells to offshore boats, Supreme, Axis and Malibu Response only.

With the purchase of Centurion/Supreme last year, PCM is supplying only in house.  Pleasure craft is still selling the Crusader in house to Supreme, and external to Axis, and offshore boats, etc.

Malibu stated they saw a 3 year pay back on thier $18M investment so basically  $1500/boat in savings going forward.  Long term it is very good for the business.  

Only downside is you only have warranty at Malibu dealers.  When you run into issues with your dealer, you are COMPLETELY screwed!  

There are numerous accounts where customer buys used, or out of area and the dealer provides "punishment" service level.  Instead of asking "why didn't I EARN thier business" for the sale.  It is a relationship, but it is also business, paying an extra $10k for the privilege of being thier customer.  I hope this helps to stabilize prices, because now they fluctuate wildly. Thus causing the out of area buys.

 

[Tims]

1 hour ago, DarkSide said:

Correct Craft bought PCM, in oct 2014, in essence bringing engine building in house.  The same time purchasing pleasure craft engine group, (Crusader).  At the time of purchase PCM was providing engines to Nautique and Centurion.  Crusader sells to offshore boats, Supreme, Axis and Malibu Response only.

With the purchase of Centurion/Supreme last year, PCM is supplying only in house.  Pleasure craft is still selling the Crusader in house to Supreme, and external to Axis, and offshore boats, etc.

Malibu stated they saw a 3 year pay back on thier $18M investment so basically  $1500/boat in savings going forward.  Long term it is very good for the business.  

Only downside is you only have warranty at Malibu dealers.  When you run into issues with your dealer, you are COMPLETELY screwed!  

There are numerous accounts where customer buys used, or out of area and the dealer provides "punishment" service level.  Instead of asking "why didn't I EARN thier business" for the sale.  It is a relationship, but it is also business, paying an extra $10k for the privilege of being thier customer.  I hope this helps to stabilize prices, because now they fluctuate wildly. Thus causing the out of area buys.

 

Forgot about PCM.

I am certain that the numbers made sense to Malibu. Just hope the sensitivity analysis was through and captured everything necessary for that savings to read through to the bottom line.

Sometimes purchasing a sustainable business like Correct Craft did is a little less risky than the brick and mortar approach. I really hope it works out and we get some good innovation out of it. 

[Woodski]

@Tims:  Malibu will be able to negotiate very good outsourced purchased parts deals as they are the highest volume of the specialty towboat manufacturers.  There are numerous options to purchase all the add on parts so no real need to develop a manufacturing process at this time which would needlessly increase complexity as they ramp up, down the road, who knows. 

[Tims]

1 hour ago, Woodski said:

@Tims:  Malibu will be able to negotiate very good outsourced purchased parts deals as they are the highest volume of the specialty towboat manufacturers.  There are numerous options to purchase all the add on parts so no real need to develop a manufacturing process at this time which would needlessly increase complexity as they ramp up, down the road, who knows. 

 

30% market share in a low volume market (tow boats) gives them negotiation leverage with GM and other related vendors? Perhaps it does.

Sounds like you have inside info on what specifically the scope of their operation will be? Can you give us more detail? 

[bamabonners]

6 hours ago, bamaboy said:

Have you seen the new PCM setup on the H5 and H6?  It takes me about 5 minutes to winterize the engine.  Literally.  There are 9 big hand tightening/loosening drain plugs.  There is a place holder next to the block that you screw them into that has each spot labelled.  When all the holes are full, you're all set.  

 

Expect the other guys (indmar, Ilmor, etc) to copy this soon.  It's awesome.  

I had a Mercruiser I/O that was similar.  Had big blue plastic wing nuts for winterizing.  Easy to spot.  That seems to take it to another level!

I take it you dry block it over the winter?

Edited December 21, 2016 by bamabonners

[Steve B.]

53 minutes ago, bamabonners said:

I had a Mercruiser I/O that was similar.  Had big blue plastic wing nuts for winterizing.  Easy to spot.  That seems to take it to another level!

I take it you dry block it over the winter?

When you turn the knob, it opens a valve and water drains out?

Steve B.

edit: I didn't read all the posts. I wonder how engine badging will be for the new in-house motors? 

Edited December 21, 2016 by Steve B.
added a question

[oldjeep]

looks like the old mercruiser block cracking system. Bunch of houses that get clogged with crap and don't completely drain.

[bamaboy]

11 hours ago, oldjeep said:

looks like the old mercruiser block cracking system. Bunch of houses that get clogged with crap and don't completely drain.

You're not referring to this are you?

[minnmarker]

11 hours ago, oldjeep said:

looks like the old mercruiser block cracking system. Bunch of houses that get clogged with crap and don't completely drain.

The picture of the PCM system is a holder for the plugs, not a bunch of hose ends.  It looks like a nice idea,  The Mercruiser engine I have in the pontoon uses the blue plastic thumb screws and they are easy to remove and install without tools.  All PCM did was make a place to store and keep track of them.

[oldjeep]

29 minutes ago, bamaboy said:

You're not referring to this are you?

Sort of.  Mercruiser had something called single point drain for a while on the V8's where they ran a tube from all the drain points and tied them together at a manifold with a single plug.  The picture above is a 3.0L which only has 2 drain points, each with its own hose.

 

If all that PCM thing is is a place to store the plugs then it seems like more of a marketing gizmo than anything useful since I would never leave my plugs out over the winter.  My inlaws 04 LXI Black scorpion has the blue plug system and it is sort of nice except that being plastic they have a bad habit of cross threading and the O-rings are always rotting out or sticking to the fitting they are installed in.  Much prefer the way my Indmar drains - need tools but never need spare plugs or O-rings.

Edited December 21, 2016 by oldjeep

[bamaboy]

4 hours ago, minnmarker said:

The picture of the PCM system is a holder for the plugs, not a bunch of hose ends.  It looks like a nice idea,  The Mercruiser engine I have in the pontoon uses the blue plastic thumb screws and they are easy to remove and install without tools.  All PCM did was make a place to store and keep track of them.

Bingo.  I'm surprised you don't like it @oldjeep....NOT

[Nitrousbird]

I think that PCM setup is pretty trick and a great idea.  Yes, I can drain my boat in only a few minutes, but it would sure be nicer to just pull some plastic plugs and call it a day.  Especially nice for those that keep their boats on the water at the edge of the seasons, where they need to drain after each use.

[mbianchini]

It's nice to be able to look at the engine compartment and at first glance know your food to go!  Very handy!

[bamabonners]

Is CC buying pleasure craft, an already existing engine company with established history, the same as Malibu building their own motors in house?  We're talking from the ground up, never built a motor on a mass scale.

[IXFE]

45 minutes ago, bamabonners said:

Is CC buying pleasure craft, an already existing engine company with established history, the same as Malibu building their own motors in house?  We're talking from the ground up, never built a motor on a mass scale.

Same strategy (vertical integration, product differentiation, etc), just a different implementation of that strategy. 

It's a classic make vs. buy.

Sometimes it makes sense to make, other times it makes sense to buy. Depends on many factors, not the least of which is timing and available targets (and what price they demand)  

This has been a Malibu strategy for years. What do you think the whole Marine Power experiment was really about?

i applaud Malibu on this move (as stated pages ago). In some ways acquisition is easy.  Choosing to build the capability organically takes a lot of courage. 

[Nitrousbird]

8 hours ago, bamabonners said:

Is CC buying pleasure craft, an already existing engine company with established history, the same as Malibu building their own motors in house?  We're talking from the ground up, never built a motor on a mass scale.

I think it is a far stretch to say either of them are building a motor.  They are taking a GM longblock and bolting some accessories on them.  Then they are taking a GM ECU and doing their own custom tune on it.  That's it.  If you ever notice which parts fail the most on the Indmars, it is the parts that they bolted on.  I've had an alternator bracket, plug wires, and alternator fail on mine - all Indmar parts.