Best new wakeboat feature of 2017?

[bamaboy]

23 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

 

Now back on topic,  the ZFT4 seams like a great tower, i loke the foling backwards and towability.  The only complaint i saw with it is if you forget to spin the racks in they hit the top deck.  

I added two pieces of gatorstep to the gunnel.  So in case I forgot to flip them in, it would hit the gatorstep and not the gel.  Worked well.  Should be there from the factory IMO

I did tell the factory reps that as well.  Guess its not in the budget.  

Edited October 27, 2016 by bamaboy

[DarkSide]

I agree, i really like the gator step on the gunnel and bow.  These areas take a beating, plus the dock pick up drop off safety aspect.  To expect a couple pieces of gator step from the factory, man that is just crazy talk....

[The Hulk]

1 hour ago, Fman said:

Are there gel voids in traditional chopper/roll on methods?  would like to see some examples of what this is.  And I thought wakeboats were supposed to be heavy?  Do you really want to make them lighter?  Not saying this infusion is not a good thing, but I have yet to have any issues with the old school method Malibu is using right now.

the mfg process he is discussing is MUCH STRONGER AND A LOT LIGHTER

off topic example is i use to build/fly RC Sail Planes. we used a fast winch motor staked into the ground goes out 100-200 yards around a pulley then attaches back to the under body of the plane. so you wind up the winch spool and toss the plane and it starts flying up at a 60-70 deg angle up and up..as you reach the peak you dive the plane off the hook.The faster you winch up the plane the more speed you can get to launch higher into the air when you release from the hook, the higher you start = more advantage you have in "competitions" AKA more gliding time to find thermals...in comp it you have to hit certain flight times and if you dont find thermals your screwed... so starting/launching faster = starting higher and buys you more flight time in the case you may not find thermals... now the faster you winch the plane up the FORCE on the wings is incredible. the wings have to be foam core and laminated with balsa wood, fiberglass, carbon fiber etc.. depending on the design and requirements a mix of all the above or pure carbon, or pure fiberglass etc..etc.. Now in recent years people are moving to more carbon for lighter stronger wings with reinforcing carbon rods internally..its crazy how strong they are now. (older airplanes with hollow core wings have to be taken up slowly on the winch and you will see their wings flex) Newer high comp RC sailplanes will fly up incredibly fast with very little flex on the wings.  

now back on topic: when building the WINGS the OLD methods were.. simply lay the balsa wood or fiberglass or carbon or whatever combo you wanted and hand lay it and smear the epoxy/glue over them and roll it out etc.. similar to a boat build. do as many layers as required. what often happened is that your wing would have a void/air-pocket/place that glass fiber or carbon wasnt attached very well and the wing would fold/collapse at this weak spot. they were only as strong as the weakest point. 

then came the idea to "vacuum" bag the wing during the mfg process to eliminate potential voids... this did a few things: 1. Dramatically reduced the amount of glue required and thus reduced total weight a lot . 2. made a perfectly even adhesion of materials with zero voids or weak spots. Required less layers or less thick fiberglass and or carbon to create a much stronger wing. 3. reduced the (space) of glue between say the carbon and the wing it was being bonded to: this reduced space means the material such as carbon was carrying more load instead of the GLUE itself...so at the end of the day vacuum formed wings created MUCH LIGHTER and WAY STRONGER aircraft wings (much better for a sail plane with no engine) and you could winch the plane much faster without collapsing the wings for a higher launch. in fact the LESS GLUE space actually makes that material such as fiberglass more flexible "without" cracking. So its Lighter, Stronger, stiffer, yet more flexible without breaking or cracking. 

Vacuum process will ALWAYS create a MUCH stronger product Period.. you then have your choice of if you want to go thinner and stronger or much thinner and same strength etc.. or same thickness and way stronger etc.. 

 

another example of this is that i was a Pole Vaulter in my younger years up through college: (17'1") PR if anyone is familiar! woohoo... anyhow pole vault poles MUST be made by vacuum process to create a uniform strength pole that can be incredible thin and light but yet incredibly strong AND FLEX and spring back to origional state without damage or cracking or spider cracking.

so with this process Centurion boats will be much less susceptible to any fiberglass spider cracking than a hand laid boat and would surely be a LOT stronger. 

i didnt know they did this until DS informed me about it, but it was funny now that i think about it, when i was deciding on my 25lsv, i was in our local Nautique dealer who was trying to convert me to a G23, there was an Ri217 in their shop getting an oil change or something.. he asked if i'd seen them i said yea i saw that guy on the lake but i have not ridden in it yet.. Now mind you this is the dealer that loved to show me how if you push on the sidewall of a Malibu it is easy to bend/flex but if you push on the side of a nautique its much stronger, now even more interesting the first thing he brought up about the Centurion was that he said MAAAN that Centurion is freaking Crazy Strong!... i never thought about it much at the time... but this is the sales rep that loved to tell & show me how weak my previous malibu was compared to a nautique..... again i know its strong enough but I just thought it was interesting that this rep was impressed with how strong the Ri217 was..as if it was stronger than his nautiques...although i haven't tested myself i plan to test and check this out when i see one next... 

Edited October 27, 2016 by The Hulk

[The Hulk]

On 10/26/2016 at 9:26 AM, DarkSide said:

This one is used by epic boats, several yachts, and is starting o make it into wake boats.  Vacuum Infusion vs traditional fiberglass. There are numerous advantages,  lighter, stronger, eliminates gel voids,  and is significantly more environmentaly friendly. 

Resin is pumped in and the excess is vacuumed out.  

i know a boat is vastly larger surface area than a small airplane wing but the multiple suction points seems like it would cause issues. int he suction area. granted they probably do this as they dont have a powerful enough pump to pump from a single access point (as we did with airplane wings) Also important factory was to first make a bag that conformed as close as possible to the shape of the item you were going to vacuum. looks like there is a lot of excess bag in areas here which makes me wonder, (although still better than laying by hand) but it also is a difficult shape to vacuum and the size as well so perhaps this is the best that can easily or cheaply be done. 

[DarkSide]

The multiple points is so the resin does not have to draw as far.  the greater the distance he resin has to travel the higher the probability of failure. (G series uses a similar process, they are bagged also)

[67King]

2 hours ago, The Hulk said:

i know a boat is vastly larger surface area than a small airplane wing but the multiple suction points seems like it would cause issues. int he suction area. granted they probably do this as they dont have a powerful enough pump to pump from a single access point (as we did with airplane wings) Also important factory was to first make a bag that conformed as close as possible to the shape of the item you were going to vacuum. looks like there is a lot of excess bag in areas here which makes me wonder, (although still better than laying by hand) but it also is a difficult shape to vacuum and the size as well so perhaps this is the best that can easily or cheaply be done. 

Hulk, I think that system is infusion.  If you look, you'll see those tubes go to buckets (which have resin in them), rather than a vacuum source.  The black things appear to be manifolds to allow the resin to spreadmore evenly.  If you blow up the picture, it appears that there is some infusion material (looks like really small stucco lath).  The process is slightly different.

Regardless of bagging with a breather or infusion, for complex shapes, the more typical way of doing it involves making pleats in the bag since the non-uniformity will not allow the bag to lay flat.  I have some flexible bagging material, as well, but I have not tried it, yet (I've made a wing for a race car, the nose will be the most likley place I try the flexible bag).

The thing that really puzzles me about that one is that the mold is a positive, rather than a negative.

[DarkSide]

All i can think is a mold to create a mold??? No clue...

[Fman]

4 hours ago, bamaboy said:

I still think the ZFT4 is great.  My experience with the G4 is limited.  The ZFT4 is set back so the towers don't blow you out of the boat, folds back for easy driving onto a lift, and the latch mechanism is awesome.  Takes one person about 5 seconds to drop it.  

There's an example above in the red flake boat.  Think of the gel like a candy shell on an M and M.  It is a hole in that shell.  

Understood but how often does this void happen?  I am ordering my 4th Malibu and never once have I ever experienced any gel problems or "voids".

[The Hulk]

2 hours ago, DarkSide said:

The multiple points is so the resin does not have to draw as far.  the greater the distance he resin has to travel the higher the probability of failure. (G series uses a similar process, they are bagged also)

it looked like Cross hatched Carbon Fiber cloth to me (but could be wrong) if so thats awesome for strength! and in the spots it needs to be for sure. and would also be why my dealer said when he pushed on the side of that thing it was stiff as a rock... we used both cross hatched carbon sheets and straight fiber sheets on the airplane wings depending on the spot on the wing and the load it would receive.. 

i dabbled in making custom wakeboards years ago overseas and made a full Carbon Fiber board for my brother who could wakeboard cuz i suck..... this was (before there were carbon boards on the market) i used cross hatched carbon and the board was crazy strong and stiff and like 1/3 the weight of typical fiberglass boards at the time... granted now we have carbon wakeboards and surfboards on the market....but the stuff is AWESOME!!! if they truely are using it in their boats i'm impressed! 

Edited October 27, 2016 by The Hulk

[The Hulk]

56 minutes ago, 67King said:

Hulk, I think that system is infusion.  If you look, you'll see those tubes go to buckets (which have resin in them), rather than a vacuum source.  The black things appear to be manifolds to allow the resin to spreadmore evenly.  If you blow up the picture, it appears that there is some infusion material (looks like really small stucco lath).  The process is slightly different.

Regardless of bagging with a breather or infusion, for complex shapes, the more typical way of doing it involves making pleats in the bag since the non-uniformity will not allow the bag to lay flat.  I have some flexible bagging material, as well, but I have not tried it, yet (I've made a wing for a race car, the nose will be the most likley place I try the flexible bag).

The thing that really puzzles me about that one is that the mold is a positive, rather than a negative.

that appears to be vacuum "forming" a different process: used to make most RC-Boats (same method) as the pizza trays in the malibu boats etc.. make a positive mold heat up a sheet of plastic then suck it to the shape/mold let it dry and wala... 

[67King]

Just now, The Hulk said:

that appears to be vacuum "forming" a different process: used to make most RC-Boats (same method) as the pizza trays in the malibu boats etc.. make a positive mold heat up a sheet of plastic then suck it to the shape/mold let it dry and wala... 

No, it is for bagging.  I suppose it could be either, but Aircraft Spruce sells it for normal thermoset bagging  (forming will be a thermoplastic)

[The Hulk]

Just now, 67King said:

No, it is for bagging.  I suppose it could be either, but Aircraft Spruce sells it for normal thermoset bagging  (forming will be a thermoplastic)

hard to tell form the small pic but yea it did look similar to thermoplastic vacuum forming but if thats bagging perhaps its a mixture of the two techniques

[DarkSide]

20 minutes ago, Fman said:

Understood but how often does this void happen?  I am ordering my 4th Malibu and never once have I ever experienced any gel problems or "voids".

I think they are fairly common, most do not get to the point they create holes,  most are minor surface imperfections that resemble a bubble.   As Bama noted 99% of the time they dont cause structural issues, and are purely cosmetic.  

Vacuum Infusion is a way to help reduce these, and simultaneously make a stronger, lighter product.  Why does weight matter?  Do you remove swim platform?  wouldn't it be cool if it were stronger AND 10 pounds lighter?  

[The Hulk]

15 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

I think they are fairly common, most do not get to the point they create holes,  most are minor surface imperfections that resemble a bubble.   As Bama noted 99% of the time they dont cause structural issues, and are purely cosmetic.  

Vacuum Infusion is a way to help reduce these, and simultaneously make a stronger, lighter product.  Why does weight matter?  Do you remove swim platform?  wouldn't it be cool if it were stronger AND 10 pounds lighter?  

Or add some carbon and make it 30lbs less! Also floor panel Joyce stringers need some as well the floors flex too much with a few adults walking ..

Also some carbon. On hull where platform is mounted to make stronger and especially where tower is mounted it flexes the fiberglass too much.. 

[kerpluxal]

29 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

I think they are fairly common, most do not get to the point they create holes,  most are minor surface imperfections that resemble a bubble.   As Bama noted 99% of the time they dont cause structural issues, and are purely cosmetic.  

Vacuum Infusion is a way to help reduce these, and simultaneously make a stronger, lighter product.  Why does weight matter?  Do you remove swim platform?  wouldn't it be cool if it were stronger AND 10 pounds lighter?  

If you are in a 3 event boat then lighter would be better. However, in a wake boat heavier would be better. That is partially how the G and M235 work, start off with a "heavy" boat and your displacement of water is already more than a lighter boat. lighter boat would need more ballast to compensate. 

With that stated... I prefer a lighter boat to tow, especially since mine lives in storage not on lake front property... Then add weight when in water.

[DarkSide]

I surf almost exclusively so i agree displacement!   The G's are made this way!  The new RI257 is 6150lb dry, so i don't know what they are doing to add the extra weight.  Extra Billet? No idea, maybe the Roswell towers are freaking heavy??  But something somewhere weighs a lot.

[kerpluxal]

25 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

I surf almost exclusively so i agree displacement!   The G's are made this way!  The new RI257 is 6150lb dry, so i don't know what they are doing to add the extra weight.  Extra Billet? No idea, maybe the Roswell towers are freaking heavy??  But something somewhere weighs a lot.

LOL... it is lead fiberglass composite  

[bamaboy]

4 hours ago, Fman said:

Understood but how often does this void happen?  I am ordering my 4th Malibu and never once have I ever experienced any gel problems or "voids".

I have no idea the percentage of boats that come out with voids

I can tell you my personal experience is that I have bought 4 new boats and 2 had voids.  Different manufacturers.

[The Hulk]

3 hours ago, DarkSide said:

I surf almost exclusively so i agree displacement!   The G's are made this way!  The new RI257 is 6150lb dry, so i don't know what they are doing to add the extra weight.  Extra Billet? No idea, maybe the Roswell towers are freaking heavy??  But something somewhere weighs a lot.

Umm it's like 1.5x the size of a 25lsv.. look at the height on the trailer.. even if u compare a 25lsv to a g23 the g is much much taller on the water that's a lot more fiberglass.. 

Also nautiques generally have thicker fiberglass  than most Malibu so their weight is going to be more excluding the height difference..not sure on centurion..

Edited October 28, 2016 by The Hulk

[85 Barefoot]

[DarkSide]

There is a fineline with weight though,  i think the bigger wake boats are pushing that edge now,  some have realistically crossed it.  

Where the boat is so heavy you really, no serioisly, look at your tow vehicle.  i saw a guy at the ramp this year with a small land rover launch a 25LSV, he skidded down the ramp, i have no idea how he recovered it.....

Generically:

6000 pound "DRY" boat

1300 pound trailer (could be significantly more  with triple and a spare)

450 pounds fuel (~75 gallons)

200 pounds stereo (amps, subs, tower, 2nd battery)

You are at 8000 pounds before gear, cooler, etc.  Some of these beasts are going to be close to if not over 10,000 pounds rolling along behind you.   

[85 Barefoot]

4 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

There is a fineline with weight though,  i think the bigger wake boats are pushing that edge now,  some have realistically crossed it.  

Where the boat is so heavy you really, no serioisly, look at your tow vehicle.  i saw a guy at the ramp this year with a small land rover launch a 25LSV, he skidded down the ramp, i have no idea how he recovered it.....

Generically:

6000 pound "DRY" boat

1300 pound trailer (could be significantly more  with triple and a spare)

450 pounds fuel (~75 gallons)

200 pounds stereo (amps, subs, tower, 2nd battery)

You are at 8000 pounds before gear, cooler, etc.  Some of these beasts are going to be close to if not over 10,000 pounds rolling along behind you.   

...point being what?  that's not a whole lot in the scheme of consumer-available tow vehicles.  Dodge and Ford advertise being able to tow 30,000#s.  I'm sure Chevy in that range too just haven't seen.  The ultra-heavy wakeboat market is what, 1000 boats a year nationally?  Methinks those 1000 people, if they want an ultra lux boat can afford a heavy duty truck.

[The Hulk]

17 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

There is a fineline with weight though,  i think the bigger wake boats are pushing that edge now,  some have realistically crossed it.  

Where the boat is so heavy you really, no serioisly, look at your tow vehicle.  i saw a guy at the ramp this year with a small land rover launch a 25LSV, he skidded down the ramp, i have no idea how he recovered it.....

Generically:

6000 pound "DRY" boat

1300 pound trailer (could be significantly more  with triple and a spare)

450 pounds fuel (~75 gallons)

200 pounds stereo (amps, subs, tower, 2nd battery)

You are at 8000 pounds before gear, cooler, etc.  Some of these beasts are going to be close to if not over 10,000 pounds rolling along behind you.   

oh i can say my F150 DOES NOT LIKE my 25lsv for sure... it somehow has the 3.73 gearbox and is somehow rated for 9300 lbs tow ...but take that with a grain of salt because the F150 does not like pulling her...granted i dont pull much just for few hrs/yr for service...but if you were to be pulling it a lot an older f250 with 7.3 powerstroke is more in line... haha. 

and i figure with the monster trailer i have to be at 8k or over with gas/gear/etc.. i should jump on a scale sometime i bet the trailer is closer to 2k lbs with dual axis but could be wrong..

Edited October 28, 2016 by The Hulk

[DarkSide]

36 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

...point being what?  that's not a whole lot in the scheme of consumer-available tow vehicles.  Dodge and Ford advertise being able to tow 30,000#s.  I'm sure Chevy in that range too just haven't seen.  The ultra-heavy wakeboat market is what, 1000 boats a year nationally?  Methinks those 1000 people, if they want an ultra lux boat can afford a heavy duty truck.

A lot of folks wont even think about it, they see  ford towing 30,000 pounds so they think thier F150 is fine. ..

[DarkSide]

8 hours ago, 67King said:

Hulk, I think that system is infusion.  If you look, you'll see those tubes go to buckets (which have resin in them), rather than a vacuum source.  The black things appear to be manifolds to allow the resin to spreadmore evenly.  If you blow up the picture, it appears that there is some infusion material (looks like really small stucco lath).  The process is slightly different.

Regardless of bagging with a breather or infusion, for complex shapes, the more typical way of doing it involves making pleats in the bag since the non-uniformity will not allow the bag to lay flat.  I have some flexible bagging material, as well, but I have not tried it, yet (I've made a wing for a race car, the nose will be the most likley place I try the flexible bag).

The thing that really puzzles me about that one is that the mold is a positive, rather than a negative.

Here is a different image. ..