Losing Faith....need more BU Kool Aid STAT!

[Falko]

I think you should trade up to a Pavati.

[DarkSide]

16 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

Probably, except that people buy a boat with x amount of ballast and then use x * 2 ballast.

Seems like they need to start thinking about things like - what happens when someone is steering hard to one side 100% of the time because the surfgate and thousands of lbs of ballast are trying to turn the boat the other direction.  Those are some weird loads on the rudder, cable, steering rack, rudder box.  Not normal boat forces, so they are going to need to work with the folks who actually build the steering parts or just start using parts from tugboats.

 

Too a certain extent there is validity to balast argument.   However there are people like me who use balast instead of crew.   Ballast doesn't want ride time,  crew does.   My outings range 3-6 people normally.   The boat says 18 or 2500 pounds.   So most aren't insanely over weight. 

@Falko i would absolutely rock a Pavati, if they had dealer support here, and if they performed decent.  I am a huge fan of thier style

Edited August 31, 2016 by DarkSide

[oldjeep]

Just now, DarkSide said:

Too a certain extent there is validity to balast argument.   However there are people like me who use balast instead of crew.   Ballast doesn't want ride time,  crew does.   My outings range 3-6 people normally.   The boat says 18 or 2500 pounds.   So most aren't insanely over weight. 

Those weight ratings are for flotation, not for forcing the boat into a turn and then trying to counteract it.  2500lbs no problem, 2500lb with your surfgate out - big strain on the rudder, steering gear, propshaft , prop and all the non weight induced load on the trans and engine.  Its like driving your truck down the highway with one brake intentionally locked up.

Edited August 31, 2016 by oldjeep

[DarkSide]

Jeep I am not disagreeing with you!  That is what I am saying about infancy of sport.  With surfgate entering year 4. With the average user at 50 hours,  the data is not there yet!

[Fffrank]

13 hours ago, minnmarker said:

IMHO, the current crop of wake boats (all brands) are woefully under engineered for surfing and boarding.  The way we use them it is like using your pickup for hauling a max loaded trailer up hill pretty much full time.  Constant 3,000 rpm under load at 3/4 throttle is not "normal." 

I don't think the comparison is the same at all.  There is the same (or very near the same) resistance on a prop whether it's pushing a million pounds or 6 pounds.  It's spinning a certain amount of RPMs and that's about all the engine cares about.  A truck is very different in that regard because there is no such thing as slippage and there are a lot more hard linkages at play in the hubs and axles.

[Falko]

13 minutes ago, Fffrank said:

I don't think the comparison is the same at all.  There is the same (or very near the same) resistance on a prop whether it's pushing a million pounds or 6 pounds.  It's spinning a certain amount of RPMs and that's about all the engine cares about.  A truck is very different in that regard because there is no such thing as slippage and there are a lot more hard linkages at play in the hubs and axles.

So there is no change of force on the prop whether you are running unloaded or "up to the gunnels" if at both scenarios you are going 10 mph?

[minnmarker]

3 minutes ago, Fffrank said:

I don't think the comparison is the same at all.  There is the same (or very near the same) resistance on a prop whether it's pushing a million pounds or 6 pounds.  It's spinning a certain amount of RPMs and that's about all the engine cares about.  A truck is very different in that regard because there is no such thing as slippage and there are a lot more hard linkages at play in the hubs and axles.

Correct, it is not and exact apples to apples, but the engine and V drive (and rudder too) do care very much about load, not just revs.  Most new cars (my BMW for sure) calculate their service intervals based on fuel consumption and start stop cycles, not just miles or revs.  The more load the more fuel - and the more rod bearing wear, crankshaft stress, heat generation, etc.  Pretty simple.  Someone care to calculate what a light duty truck with a 5.7 engine would need to be doing to burn 8 gallons per hour?  I used to have a Chevy 2500HD and we burned about that much hauling a 12,000 pound (loaded) horse trailer.  The new Indmar 35 hour oil change interval recommendation for wake boats speaks volumes about what is happening inside our engines.

[minnmarker]

1 hour ago, Chatty21VLX said:

I would think engineers should be able to calculate the stresses that are put on the running gear of a weighted surf boat. 

I'm sure they have done those calculations - and they figured out that (the collective) we would not like paying an additional $20,000 for the up-engineered drive train.  So we have a situation where they calculate an expected failure rate (see @Raimie post above) and cost during the warranty period - which will be much less than the lifetime failure cost - and build it into the price.  That leaves the owner to pick up the cost of failures outside the warranty period.

And, thinking about how we load the boats: Has anyone ever compared their total surf added weight to the capacity sticker in the boat?  Good for a laugh.

[DarkSide]

1 minute ago, minnmarker said:

I'm sure they have done those calculations - and they figured out that (the collective) we would not like paying an additional $20,000 for the up-engineered drive train.  So we have a situation where they calculate an expected failure rate (see @Raimie post above) and cost during the warranty period - which will be much less than the lifetime failure cost - and build it into the price.  That leaves the owner to pick up the cost of failures outside the warranty period.

This^^^^ 

When you also hedge that bet with "average" consumer who uses 50 hours a year, and half of that is cruising to and from the sandbar.  A whole lot cheaper to warranty an item here and there than to upgrade everything.

However, I think they are making progress 2:1 tranny and 17x20 props should be more effective than the current version.  I just hope they remember the Nautique issue and increased shaft diameter to account for extra torque.

[85 Barefoot]

Dark, can you be more specific as to your issues?  what was wrong with rudder?  Tranny replacement eye opening but that's not Malibu's part, which I know you know.  

[DarkSide]

@85 Barefoot it cracked at the top.  The rudder attaches to a pole, that passes through the hull.  The Crack went through this section that wraps around that pole.  Cracked from top down.   

Answering the follow up before it is asked.... my lakes are Deep,  normally in 65+ feet of water, and very little debris,  so I have not hit an object in the water.

[85 Barefoot]

Just now, DarkSide said:

@85 Barefoot it cracked at the top.  The rudder attaches to a pole, that passes through the hull.  The Crack went through this section that wraps around that pole.  Cracked from top down.   

Answering the follow up before it is asked.... my lakes are Deep,  normally in 65+ feet of water, and very little debris,  so I have not hit an object in the water.

so it was a lamination issue or hardware issue?  what about the others?

Edited August 31, 2016 by 85 Barefoot

[oldjeep]

Just now, DarkSide said:

@85 Barefoot it cracked at the top.  The rudder attaches to a pole, that passes through the hull.  The Crack went through this section that wraps around that pole.  Cracked from top down.   

Answering the follow up before it is asked.... my lakes are Deep,  normally in 65+ feet of water, and very little debris,  so I have not hit an object in the water.

OK so the rudder box cracked? (At least you didn't use the word thingy)

Edited August 31, 2016 by oldjeep

[The Hulk]

2 hours ago, powderjay said:

Man you guys got me scared stiff..  120 hrs on my 15 lsv and so far so good.  Summer is wayyyyy to short in michigan for a major failure and boat to be lost for more than a week at most!  With kids sports we get basically July and August to enjoy our 90k investment in fun.  

AMEN! up here we have 12-good weekends a year assuming weather is good on those weekends, typically 8-good weekends it seems with great water temps and weather, this year has been very good better than mosts!

most dealers are min 2-3 weeks out on any minor or major repairs, you may call me crazy but my equation is as such.

Lake house, Boat, Dock, Boat lift, etc... for 12-14 weekends of good use per year in northern Indiana. you could fly 3-4ppl family to FL for a 4-5 day NICE vacation every month for the same costs. (trust me i considered this option a few years ago) I consider Each Saturday and Sunday as worth $1200-1500 when factoring the cost of all the above expenses and being on the lake and the boat etc.. I would hands down pay $500/day of use to "rent" MY boat if that was an option since it would be cheaper. 

 

anyhow my .02

i also agree when are we gonna see some TD's in these boats? ha

[oldjeep]

Just now, The Hulk said:

AMEN! up here we have 12-good weekends a year assuming weather is good on those weekends, typically 8-good weekends it seems with great water temps and weather, this year has been very good better than mosts!

most dealers are min 2-3 weeks out on any minor or major repairs, you may call me crazy but my equation is as such.

Lake house, Boat, Dock, Boat lift, etc... for 12-14 weekends of good use per year in northern Indiana. you could fly 3-4ppl family to FL for a 4-5 day NICE vacation every month for the same costs. (trust me i considered this option a few years ago) I consider Each Saturday and Sunday as worth $1200-1500 when factoring the cost of all the above expenses and being on the lake and the boat etc.. I would hands down pay $500/day of use to "rent" MY boat if that was an option since it would be cheaper. 

 

anyhow my .02

i also agree when are we gonna see some TD's in these boats? ha

Step 1) Buy boat that is out of warranty and save some money

Step 2) Buy tools

Step 3) learn to use them

That way your repair time is completely up to you

 

FWIW, Pavoti has a Hyundai diesel option

Edited August 31, 2016 by oldjeep

[The Hulk]

Just now, oldjeep said:

 

FWIW, Pavoti has a Hyundai diesel option

whaaa,whaat.... now if anyone could afford one! just waiting on the Traditional Bow! haha. it might even satisfy my durable strength requirements!

[DarkSide]

Hardware, bad casting perhaps,  

idler pulley bracket for super charger sheared in the corner where it is either bent or welded together.

Not certain where failure in steering tube was, honestly I don't care!  Steering was hard with surf right, once replaced steering nice and smooth again.

Transmission, it feels and sounds like broken teeth on gears.   

Exhaust manifold leak, just poor workmanship at indmar, simple gasket fix.  (This is the kind of failure I am OK with, and expect in new boats)  one or two of these type issues is to be expected when built by hand...people are human and make a mistake occasionally.

[oldjeep]

1 minute ago, The Hulk said:

whaaa,whaat.... now if anyone could afford one! just waiting on the Traditional Bow! haha. it might even satisfy my durable strength requirements!

Actually I guess it is an 8.2 Mercury diesel.  Maybe the Hyundai was in the Epic

[DarkSide]

9 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

Step 1) Buy boat that is out of warranty and save some money

Step 2) Buy tools

Step 3) learn to use them

That way your repair time is completely up to you

 

FWIW, Pavoti has a Hyundai diesel option

But then I spend time FIXING my boat instead of riding behind my Boat!  Time is such a precious resource at this point, the whole purpose in buying new is to avoid most repairs.   Maybe in a few years this would be fun, but right now, I just want it to work, every time I want it to use it, which is frequently.

14 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

I would hands down pay $500/day of use to "rent" MY boat if that was an option 

There is a place here that rents a 22 VLX ~$850 or a G23 for $1100 per day.... I go roughly 40-50 times a year so renting....NOT A GOOD OPTION!

[tjklein]

16 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

Hardware, bad casting perhaps,  

idler pulley bracket for super charger sheared in the corner where it is either bent or welded together.

Not certain where failure in steering tube was, honestly I don't care!  Steering was hard with surf right, once replaced steering nice and smooth again.

Transmission, it feels and sounds like broken teeth on gears.   

Exhaust manifold leak, just poor workmanship at indmar, simple gasket fix.  (This is the kind of failure I am OK with, and expect in new boats)  one or two of these type issues is to be expected when built by hand...people are human and make a mistake occasionally.

In terms of the engine concerns, your issues are one big reasons the LSA was a better option than the new supercharged Ford.  The history of use in vehicles and overall R&D were far greater.  

 

I hear your pain.  If my LSV had that many concerns I'd seriously be considering a different brand.  (mine's been good)  As you mentioned, nothing is more valuable than your time or in this case, lost time.

[The Hulk]

5 minutes ago, tjklein said:

In terms of the engine concerns, your issues are one big reasons the LSA was a better option than the new supercharged Ford.  The history of use in vehicles and overall R&D were far greater.  

 

I hear your pain.  If my LSV had that many concerns I'd seriously be considering a different brand.  (mine's been good)  As you mentioned, nothing is more valuable than your time or in this case, lost time.

yes the LSA was AWESOME i sooo wish i had it again, you could throw anything at it "apart from not having a water hose connected" but heck i made it 20mins and 6 miles, numerous WOT....before she blew if that says anything! i'm skeptical on the new SC Fords... I dont mind the 450 with the reduced gear ratio but its surely not the same

[DarkSide]

I am liking the PCM DI engines that Nautique and Centurion are running, I would like to see them out there for another couple years before I would actually trust them but they seem to be an excellent fit for wakeboats.  575 Raptor, way too soon to know how they will hold up.  

[asp13]

Tiges are really  nice

[airshark360]

2 hours ago, Falko said:

I think you should trade up to a Pavati.

do this!