Question for guys with floating docks

[Surf4FamFun]

Jumping in here.  I am not an electrician but have a fair amount of experience with electrons.  The NEC code on this talks a lot about equipment grounding and I am betting if you only have an extension chord you don't have that covered.  The equipment ground (with the grounding rod NEC calls for) is your last line of defense and I think pretty critical.  A GFI breaker detects and responds, if it works great.  But if for some reason it does not work or cover the failure mode that you are experiencing it will not do anything.  As I envision it if all the proper equipment grounds are in place no device has to work to save the life, it just happens.  I agree with post pointing out that following the NEC more than difficult but ignoring it and relying on just a GFI probably is a step too close to the edge.  Also want to point out that as I read it the two GFI's are not intended to provide redundant or extra protection.  One is to protect the wire from the house to the disconnect at the dock and the other what is downstream from that.

Yes I almost was killed by a piece of HVAC equipment that was not properly grounded when there was a fault.  While you are frozen and thinking about dying you can develop some attitude, it was literally Christmas eave and I was thinking it was a bad time to go.  The only thing I could move was my right leg because it was not down when I was hit.  Without touching the ground I was able to swing my leg and "fall" off to break the circuit.  I can really relate to the feeling the father had of not being able to do anything.  With this kind of fault your muscles don't respond and no amount of will or determination can overcome it.

Just because the lights work does not mean it is safe.

[hethj7]

@blk93jeepzj Does that cable feed through conduit down to the reel?   Mine does but I noticed this winter there is no protection on the conduit end and the wire is chafing when you reel it in or out.  Not good at all and I am looking for a solution.  
 

We also installed the dock lifeguard system that alarms if there is current in the water.  

[The Hulk]

There is a MUCH better way to do this via solar and low voltage battery powered blower boat lift control boxes without deadly inverters...

PM me if interested

Sorry for long post in advance. Floating docks are a nightmare for electricity!

1. Inverters for boat lifts are starting to get banned in various places, soon to be on many USACE lakes in near future, as will all AC power for most private docks on new dock permits+ construction on USACE lakes etc.  Inverters are a big fire hazard! Inverters are not good for running boat lift motors due to motor surge current. Most folks think a cheap $500 Amazon inverter will do the trick. Over water you need proper ground wired style marine inverter, and way oversized one at that. Technically supposed to be wired by an ABYC marine electrician since you still have AC power mixed on DC circuit over water.  The GFCI on non-Marine wired inverters are not much good. And ultimately you have AC high voltage without a TRUE earth ground, but you actually have several half or slight grounds through tethering cables or guide Post, and gangways that can cause a problem because they are NOT true grounds.  If your over water you need a much more expensive marine inverter for a reason. Internal ground wire and GFCI are properly sized to prevent bad things and fires,  To do it "correctly" with inverter cost waaaaaay more than going straight DC power.  Inverters on boats are marine style, but even if they were to leak it's in open water so electricity has no where to go in many cases. Around a dock you have multiple half/crap grounds and in freshwater the electricity takes path of least resist which is through the human body. Saltwater is far less dangerous and takes a bit more power as electricity more likely to go around you. Freshwater is much more deadly with very little current. 

2. The new DC brushless blower motors + automatic lifting control boxes are faster lifting boats than AC powered blower boxes and come with 12v LED lighting options as well. Drop 2 batteries in and your basically done for your boat lift and lighting needs

3. Separate small solar panels for charging boats and trolling motors are easy and the new norm. 

4. Most folks don't realize an AC blower motor pulls 10-15A , a lightbulb 0.5-1A and it only takes .01-.015A to cause paralysis in freshwater rendering someone unable to swim.. (yes only ten one thousandths of 1 amp). Thus why basically everyone that has drown near a floating dock due to random "heart attack" was actually electrocuted and was an ESD death. ESD has only recently gained traction. It's typically not the hair dryer in bathtub movie scene you think of rather a very small amount causes the swimmer to cramp up, they can't move they go under and we'll nobody hears them yelling under water.. 

5. Many USACE lake docks use to have or require "underwater wiring" and thus why some of those lakes are first on the new shoreline management plans to ban AC power for docks. Each USACE lake is different but the general goal is to ban AC power to eliminate the liability for private docks. Obviously legal batles and grandfathering will happen.  The issue is the power ie "utility" runs through their property to a dock you are granted and pay permit for, which requires "inspection" at various intervals.. thus  some folks die and high powered attorneys found ways to shift blame to USACE and or governing bodies controlling the lake because they failed to inspect billy bob's home wired dock correctly or within a reasonable timeframe interval and he or his kids died.. you get the drift.. 

6. Sadly power can easily leak at pure random into the water.. Grounding rods are often not truly done by Marine electricians and majority are not properly earthed up the hill far enough or deep enough so fluctuating water levels can raise or saturate at any moment and then leak power into the water. 

7. One helpful fix for this is decoupling neut/gnd connection at box and it's 100% against the NEC code!  So it will never be allowed and no insurance coverage if done nor will any electrician do it.  If your wondering NEC is basically legal language for insurance purposes. Simply put there is a reason why Marinas are required to have no swimming signs posted and its due to electricity dangers in water. Most marinas are constantly replacing failed GFCI outlets monthly if that tells ya anything. Your life's in the hands of a .01 cent spring from across the pond.. there has been a push on the NEC about this dock grounding issue and it's been shot down. A particular study on one lake found deadly amounts of electricity would at pure random enter the water from power surges from the power company itself through the grounding rods! 

8. Floating docks & electricity are an absolute nightmare compared to fixed docks for obvious reasons.. so much wear and tear, movements, things bending, rubbing, breaking, not to mention moving them in and out with fluctuating water levels 

The only 100% safe way is to Go DC-Solar (without inverters!) keep it all low voltage. Its only $1.5-2.5k depending how crazy you want to get,  way safer and you can be done in half hour or less 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by The Hulk

[blk93jeepzj]

14 hours ago, hethj7 said:

@blk93jeepzj Does that cable feed through conduit down to the reel?   Mine does but I noticed this winter there is no protection on the conduit end and the wire is chafing when you reel it in or out.  Not good at all and I am looking for a solution.  
 

We also installed the dock lifeguard system that alarms if there is current in the water.  

Depends on the dock.  Some run the wire down the mast inside of a PVC pipe with a 90degree fitting at the top.  Some of the newer docks use a ceramic isolator roller and the wire runs over that to prevent damage.  Some of the older docks the mast has a round piece of pipe for the wire to "roll" over, pipe is fixed.  

If the wire comes through the tin roof there is usually a plastic or rubbed vent flashing attached to help prevent rubbing.  

[hethj7]

11 minutes ago, blk93jeepzj said:

Depends on the dock.  Some run the wire down the mast inside of a PVC pipe with a 90degree fitting at the top.  Some of the newer docks use a ceramic isolator roller and the wire runs over that to prevent damage.  Some of the older docks the mast has a round piece of pipe for the wire to "roll" over, pipe is fixed.  

If the wire comes through the tin roof there is usually a plastic or rubbed vent flashing attached to help prevent rubbing.  

After I posted earlier, I was thinking you may be on TRL, which is where my new setup is at.   If you have any contacts for good electricians or dock builders down there, please PM me.   Most I've talked to are so backed up they don't care to talk about  relatively small issue for their business right now.  We've been waiting a year plus on a dock extension that I think may finally happen before boating season this year!  

[hethj7]

For those reading, here is the detection system we have installed to try and detect current in the water.

https://www.docklifeguard.com

 

@The Hulk  I'll be honest I didn't read all of your thesis and I agree in general, solar is a safer solution.  But, for most folks, they like the idea of keeping shore power and depending on the lake you are on, power is doing much more than just running lift motors from time to time - it could be powering a fridge or two and full bar setup on busy weekends.     Our lake does require solar for all new dock installs, so I certainly think you are spot on that things are headed that way.  

 

 

[blk93jeepzj]

2 minutes ago, hethj7 said:

After I posted earlier, I was thinking you may be on TRL, which is where my new setup is at.   If you have any contacts for good electricians or dock builders down there, please PM me.   Most I've talked to are so backed up they don't care to talk about  relatively small issue for their business right now.  We've been waiting a year plus on a dock extension that I think may finally happen before boating season this year!  

Yes we are on TRL, up between point 11 and 12.  I'll have to see who we used for our last electrical inspection and can pass that on to you.  

Getting dock built or fixed has been really hard the last couple of years.  Even getting the boat lift companies to come our for a simple repair of bunk change has been almost impossible.  We have a neighbor that received permission to build a new dock, couldn't find a builder.  He took his plans to the Corps and is now building the dock himself.  Went to LOTO and bought the galvanized metal frame/structure and all the floats up there and hauled them to TRL.  Once he is done with it he plans to build one for his parents as well.  

[The Hulk]

On 1/24/2022 at 10:07 AM, blk93jeepzj said:

Yes we are on TRL, up between point 11 and 12.  I'll have to see who we used for our last electrical inspection and can pass that on to you.  

Getting dock built or fixed has been really hard the last couple of years.  Even getting the boat lift companies to come our for a simple repair of bunk change has been almost impossible.  We have a neighbor that received permission to build a new dock, couldn't find a builder.  He took his plans to the Corps and is now building the dock himself.  Went to LOTO and bought the galvanized metal frame/structure and all the floats up there and hauled them to TRL.  Once he is done with it he plans to build one for his parents as well.  

TRL opened for permits so lots of new construction backlog... The entire industry for floating lifts is crazy backlogged in all places. a few main issues are obviously the materials aluminum/steel, but especially PE (poly ethylene) for making the roto-molded air/lift-tanks was , and still is in very short supply. Most of the lift/dock companies have order capacity booked well into 2023. I suspect we'll see a slight cooling of demand this year due to the crazy price increases (average boat lifts/docks are up 30-35%) in past 18mo but as long as materials are in short supply there will be some long waits.  good luck to ya'll on TRL!

[blk93jeepzj]

29 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

TRL opened for permits so lots of new construction backlog... The entire industry for floating lifts is crazy backlogged in all places. a few main issues are obviously the materials aluminum/steel, but especially PE (poly ethylene) for making the roto-molded air/lift-tanks was , and still is in very short supply. Most of the lift/dock companies have order capacity booked well into 2023. I suspect we'll see a slight cooling of demand this year due to the crazy price increases (average boat lifts/docks are up 30-35%) in past 18mo but as long as materials are in short supply there will be some long waits.  good luck to ya'll on TRL!

Yes, most dock builders are a year out or more since the ACOE lifted the moratorium on dock building and came up with their new Shoreline Management Plan.  

Luckily I am not in a position to need a new dock or lift.  Parents have a 3 slip private dock and I have a slip on a 3 slip "community dock".  We have BoatFloaters lifts in all 4 slips, the Classic style, that are super easy to maintain and adjust ourselves if needed.  Had to replace the original rollers on mine last summer, that was about a 30min job.  

[The Hulk]

On 1/24/2022 at 10:03 AM, hethj7 said:

For those reading, here is the detection system we have installed to try and detect current in the water.

https://www.docklifeguard.com

 

@The Hulk  I'll be honest I didn't read all of your thesis and I agree in general, solar is a safer solution.  But, for most folks, they like the idea of keeping shore power and depending on the lake you are on, power is doing much more than just running lift motors from time to time - it could be powering a fridge or two and full bar setup on busy weekends.     Our lake does require solar for all new dock installs, so I certainly think you are spot on that things are headed that way.  

 

 

Yes those with large boat house that are in fact "houses" or a 2nd house are going to have a hard time with solar etc. "places like the ozarks" so to speak. Other places limited to smaller sized boat houses, single or dual covered slips etc can get away with solar etc. The Brushless blower motors operating the lift are as you said intermittent use; so over all it doesnt use much compared to something like a fridge which is running 24/7 and would require a massive amount of solar & battery storage. There are some small DC-12/24v solar fridges but as you would expect they are kind of like the RV/Boat ones, they work to keep things cold that were...already cold.. more of a longer lasting cooler so to speak. 

Boat Lifts = easier & faster for 24v solar

Lighting = easy for 12v solar 

12v Ceiling fans = easy for 12v solar

Speakers & Music: new BT speakers are very loud and can charge off 12v and last all day

Fridges = power hungry, and you will probably want AC power. (DC-12/24v Solar fridges....ehhh ok for the daytime)

Huge yachts requiring shore power = forget it.. 

if you have AC power; https://www.docklifeguard.com you surely want one of these! My advise is get it installed correctly where it cuts the power from the source. Some other devices and older ones just notified you with alarms of power in the water, so if your swimming by yourself it would just warn you so at least you knew why you were drowning. The new ones are great because they cut the power to your dock, but often DIY people install correctly and only cut power to the outlet not back at shore! Keep in mind they cut the power to your dock, but NOT your neighbors dock, which may be the one to kill you. If i lived in those places with close neighbors I'd press for neighbors to have them too. IMO they should be required on ALL floating docks with AC power. 

New Construction on TRL you don't have much of a choice solar is it..