2016 Indmar Raptor\Monsoon Engine HP & Torque Ratings with answer from Malibu Factory Rep

[ConnollyCrew]

Just sharing what Indmar told me. Having said that, I didn't have any issues with my 17' regarding O2 sensors and we idle when switching riders etc.... I wouldn't be scared as nearly the ENTIRE INDUSTRY uses these Indmar power trains. I believe Indmar was sharing best practices...... 

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by ConnollyCrew

[IXFE]

5 minutes ago, ConnollyCrew said:

Just sharing what Indmar told me. Having said that I didn't have any issues with my 17' regarding O2 sensors and we idle when switching riders etc.... I wouldn't be scared as nearly the ENTIRE INDUSTRY uses these Indmar power trains. I believe Indmar was sharing best practices......

Oh trust me, I don't doubt that they told you that. And I agree that there's no reason to be scared about buying an Indmar powered boat. 

[shawndoggy]

21 hours ago, DarkSide said:

Exactly, think beginners a s*** ton of driving/idling in circles.... even surfing with good riders, 2-3 min is a VERY long run.  Then idle back....

power turns all day then rev it in neutral.  Duh.

[DarkSide]

20 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

power turns all day then rev it in neutral.  Duh.

My friends have shovels....

 

[thealy]

I am in the market for a 2016 VTX with the '410'.  If I am not using my boat for skiing/boarding/surfing, it is going to be used like a pontoon boat to slowly idle around the lake for maybe 1 hour at a time.  Is Indmar stating I can't use my boat for this purpose?  Does anyone else use their boat for this purpose.  Seems strange that Malibu would put in 17 cup holders and a tray table in a boat that you can't use to idle around the lake in.

[CharlieBeaU]

43 minutes ago, thealy said:

I am in the market for a 2016 VTX with the '410'.  If I am not using my boat for skiing/boarding/surfing, it is going to be used like a pontoon boat to slowly idle around the lake for maybe 1 hour at a time.  Is Indmar stating I can't use my boat for this purpose?  Does anyone else use their boat for this purpose.  Seems strange that Malibu would put in 17 cup holders and a tray table in a boat that you can't use to idle around the lake in.

My Indmar manual for the same 410 motor simply states that if you are using it in this fashion you need to change the oil more frequently (Page 7-2). Their recommended interval for this type of use is every 25 hours instead of every 75. The reason is that when you're spending a lot of time idling you tend to get fuel in your oil. This negatively affects its lubricity and in extreme cases you can actually have the phenomenon of "making oil" because so much fuel has gotten into the oil that the oil level actually rises.

I think if you check your oil every time out, change the oil frequently and take advantage of times when you can roll the throttle on to a higher RPM you should be fine.

[hethj7]

If you truly are never going to run the boat hard, why not get a pontoon?

From your statement, it sounds like you will use yours like ours and a lot of folks on this board - when it riding, we are idling around the cove and back and forth to the dock.   I wouldn’t be overly concerned   

You can read exactly what the manual says by accessing it through the link below   

http://www.themalibucrew.com/_files/engines/indmar_2016.pdf

 

 

[Tahoesurf]

Does anyone run at altitude?  I am trying to decide what engine is able to push a fully loaded 23 lsv with 750 bags at 6200 feet. I currently have a 2015 22 vlx with the monsoon 350 and a high altitude prop and 550 bags. I find I need to have the throttle buried to maintain surf speed.  I am upgrading this year and don’t know what engine to get. 

[boardjnky4]

I've never dealt with altitude like that before. I will say, though, that the 450 Raptor is REALLY capable. I'm guessing it would handle it decently well, especially if you're skirting by with a 350 right now.

The jump to the supercharged 575 is going to be big, and you need to run premium fuel, so it's really not a trivial answer, in my opinion. I'm sure someone will come right up behind me and say that you need the 575, but I would probably tend to not jump to that conclusion immediately.

Edited April 12, 2018 by boardjnky4

[Tahoesurf]

Thank you for the quick response. It is a difficult decision. I would rather not be required to use premium, gas is expensive enough. Also the supercharger pushes more air and therefore more fuel.  The other consideration is the 1.76:1 transmission. I currently have the 1.5:1 so I think that will make a big difference as well. Still on the fence and looking for help. Everyone on this site seems very knowledgeable. 

[granddaddy55]

1 hour ago, Tahoesurf said:

Does anyone run at altitude?  I am trying to decide what engine is able to push a fully loaded 23 lsv with 750 bags at 6200 feet. I currently have a 2015 22 vlx with the monsoon 350 and a high altitude prop and 550 bags. I find I need to have the throttle buried to maintain surf speed.  I am upgrading this year and don’t know what engine to get. 

You mean with cruise engaged? If so we all run WOT or are you saying your WOT without cruise to be able to surf ?

what surfing speed are you trying to maintain?

the 575 may still need torque prop anyway? Possibly even the same prop of the 450

if you were wakeboarding with butt loads of weight than that probably would necessitate the supercharged motor?

[TenTwentyOne]

@Tahoesurf just out of curiousity, what are you running for a bow bag? I think I see more often than not, that it is a weight issue more than a HP issue, with the ballast amounts you are running (too much rear weight compared to front if you aren't running a bow bag). The 350 is definitely working hard at that kind of altitude, but you might find it gets the job done pretty well with more bow weight.

i got a buddy with an older 23LSV with the monsoon 350 on Tahoe, and he makes it work pretty well. He runs 750s in the back, and a 750 bag on top of the bow seats.

Edited April 12, 2018 by TenTwentyOne

[Woodski]

@Tahoesurf:  As a reference as you do your engine evaluation, when looking at engine power numbers an NA engine at 6000' will produce 82% of the advertised power level.  A boosted engine will suffer much less, probably not enough to be noticeable.

[Tahoesurf]

18 hours ago, TenTwentyOne said:

@Tahoesurf just out of curiousity, what are you running for a bow bag? I think I see more often than not, that it is a weight issue more than a HP issue, with the ballast amounts you are running (too much rear weight compared to front if you aren't running a bow bag). The 350 is definitely working hard at that kind of altitude, but you might find it gets the job done pretty well with more bow weight.

i got a buddy with an older 23LSV with the monsoon 350 on Tahoe, and he makes it work pretty well. He runs 750s in the back, and a 750 bag on top of the bow seats.

That is really interesting I wonder what prop your friend is using. As for bow weight I just use the factory ballast tank. If I have a lot of people I am sure to make at least three of them sit up front but maybe I need to consider some auxiliary ballast.  I have always been nervous about swamping the boat with a big bow wave.  

As for the cruise control I always use it for surfing and wake boarding.  I just have to have the throttle pinned to keep the boat at 10.8. I do adjust the wedge position to fit the situation but to get the wake to an ideal size I feel like I need a little more power. 

[TenTwentyOne]

I think most of the guys on here are running a bow bag (in addition to the front tanks), that is about the same capacity as the plug and play bags. I think they have to be more careful about swamping, but doesn't seem to be a big issue.

do you have the fourth ballast tank option up front? If not, you might need to run an even bigger bag up there.

how is the attitude of the boat while surfing? Is the bow riding pretty high?

[Tahoesurf]

The bow rides a little high probably. My wife has to sit on the top of the seat to see over the bow when she drives. The boat has four tanks. One in the bow, one mid ship and two in the rear. Perhaps we need add a bag. Does the bow bag plug into the plug and play system?  

[Infinitysurf]

You would have to plumb in a bow bag that sits on seats in bow. I ride frequently on 2006 Malibu 247 and he has 1000lb bow bag in the bow, along with 1100lb bags in each rear locker, 400lbs of lead and wedge... close to 5k of total ballast. (also has GSA so all weight is used). Excellent wave and while bow is higher, it is not bow high to a point to keep you from seeing over bow.

General rule of thumb (not true on all boats).....but to have 25-30% of your weight in bow. So if you have 3000 in rear, you want a 1000 in front. Some boats like more. This not only will help engine power (cause when pointing the nose that high you are basically trying to drive the boat out of the water and it cannot do that so you are wasting power that you could otherwise use in forward motion)....but will also give you a longer wave with more push (as long as you have enough total weight in boat). Try it, think it will make a big difference. One way you could do this without plumbing it all in first, is to get the bow bag and use an "over the side" pump to fill up the bag and test it....if it works and you decide you cannot live without it, then plumb it in right with a thru-hull and reversible pump (ballast king is quite a bit faster than ballast puppy if you use that brand), little more expensive but well worth it on a bag that size.

[roonedoggie]

On 3/25/2016 at 11:46 PM, ORMailbuboater said:

 

My "journey" for 2016 Ford Raptor Engine information and answers to my questions from Malibu Factory Rep answered!  Posting this as some may find this useful about the Malibu 2016 Ford Raptor engine choices.    

A bit of background and investigation first.  I have been lurking on the Malibu Crew site for about a month now.  Many thanks for all the great info on the site! Researching all the posts on 2016 options such as G4 tower, surf gate, boat configurations, colors, etc… working toward my next Malibu boat purchase.  We like the traditional bow so decided on 23 LSV.

Currently proud owner of a 2001 Sunsetter LXI (with Wedge, Tower, modest ballast).  Sunsetter LXI has been a fantastic boat, bullet proof reliable and great all around boat for my family.  I decided 2016 is the year to finally update to a newer boat as Wake Surfing, Wakeboarding has taken over the behind the boat activities, plus leaps in technology, wife loves V Drive space vs direct inboard as well.  Skiing no longer a priority. 

The Raptor engine choices are the final sticking point for me.  Seen all the posts about Raptor increased engine noise over last year GM motors, some saying higher RPM at same speeds vs previous years, difficult prop choices, etc…     All good info but leaving me up in the air as to which engine to choose.  New Ford Raptor being somewhat “unproven” in Malibu with new 1.76 to 1 transmission ratio.  I am hesitant to order the base 410 engine. I love HP and Torque (who doesn’t).  All my cars and SUVs do not have stock mills.  Life begins at 400 HP J.   410 is only 350hp.

Searching the web left me frustrated due the lack of technical specs on Indmar or Malibu sites.   Many additional hours web browsing yielded very little new info.  Indmar site: Really only bore and stoke, type of fuel, oil recommendation and marketing hype?  Very short on technical data you find in most automotive brochures.  Marketing talks to the “highest” torque and HP on the market but NO Numbers?  Other questions:  What are the differences if any between Malibu 410, 450, 575 vs Indmar Raptor 400, 440. 575?  Engine internal differences between the engine choices?  Plus what’s up with the Monsoon 450 costing $7500 MSRP?  What do you get for the high cost and  “minor” bump in torque?  Understand the high price tag for the ROUSHCHARGED Raptor 575 but is that motor engineered for the extra boost and stress?   Actual torque curves, HP output, and other differences between the 410, 450, 575? 

(Bet I am not the only one who is looking for these answers.) 

I have discussed this with dealer.  Active Water Sports worked valiantly to get me technical information.  They recommend either the 410 or 575 (if you need\want more power).

I finally decided to contact the source.  Sent a note directly to Indmar (no response think they forwarded to Malibu) and Malibu separately asking for answers on engines (earlier this week).  Malibu Factory Rep from TN called me back same day!  Nice to provide such a quick response!  The Malibu rep was open answering my questions.  He provided detailed information on the engines and some on marketing strategies.  I was surprised and delighted at the honest responses. 

So here is what I gleaned from our conversation.  (Not word for word my but interpretation. Hope I got it right from the Rep.  If not I apologize to Malibu.) 

Is the Monsoon 410, 450 same as Indmar Raptor 400 and 440?  1st off the 410, 450 are the SAME as the 400 and the 440.  No difference.  Marketing by Malibu to call them the Monsoon 410 and Monsoon 450.  Indmar provides same engines to all boat mfg.  These are NOT tweaked for Malibu to 410 or 450 torque (see below for quoted numbers).  Rep clarified Malibu felt the higher torque at the prop due to 1.76 to 1 transmission instead of 1.5 to 1 other manufactures use.  So Malibu stayed with the same labeling.  Kind of a slight of hand measurement since torque rating is at the crankshaft not at the prop.    Difference is transmission ratio does provide more torque at the prop according to Malibu.  575 is identical to what is sold to others.

Are the engines built differently for the different torque ratings?  NO; Rep said all engines are identical mechanically for 410, 450, 575.  All have 6 bolt mains, same ECM, heads, crankshaft, pistons, valves, etc…   Rep said the Raptor motor line was designed with the 575 in mind.  Raptor Engine is designed to meet the 575 stress and boost requirements.  Same motor is “waterfalled” for use as 410 & 450 engines.  They are identical mechanically.  Asked about injector size on 575 since huge HP difference.  Malibu Rep conceded 575 most likely different injector size.  Obvious other external engine differences supercharger, ECM map, engine covers.  Rep further said engine build is total overkill for the 410 & 450 application.  Good news for 410 & 450 owners.  Have a motor built to withstand 575 lb ft torque doing duty at much less level.  Should last a very long time.

Rep said marketing strategy by Indmar is to make profit on 410s based on volume not much margin.  Bigger margin upgrading to 450 and 575.  Pretty straight forward marketing strategy. 

Raptor 450: What is the reason for the $7500 price tag?  Different internally for that rating?  NO; 450 engine is NOTHING more than a software flash with different engine cover.  (Saw that on Malibu crew post but now confirmed by Malibu Factory verbally to me.)  Asked why it is $7500 MSRP.  His response was Indmar set the pricing.  Since 450 is similar in HP/Torque to last year’s LS3 offering Indmar set price accordingly.  Malibu did not set the price.  My 2 cents: Looks like more of a pass through from Indmar.  Malibu does not make much on the deal. 

Rep also explained torque curves are identical for the 410 & 450 to 3800 RPM.  450 extra torque higher in RPM range above 3800.  Indmar adds 300 RPM to top of rev range for higher top speed.   Again my 2 cent:  Wow that is steep for a software upgrade only.  $7500 MSRP “too hard a pill to swallow for me” for just software.  My dealer kept telling me to save my money not get the 450.  Choosing either the 410 or pay out for ROUSHCHARGED Raptor 575.    

ROUSHCHARGED Raptor 575:  Enough said online.  As others have said it is a total beast.  According to Malibu Rep Raptor motor build to withstand the extra boost pressure and stresses.  Engine built around 575 extreme requirements not 410 then add a blower.  Like it says online extensive reliability testing done up to 6000 hours.   Long term reliability is still unknown but other boat makers been running them a couple years.  If there were to be major failures it would be all over the web.  We would have hear about it. 

One final question on the 575.  What about 93 octane requirement?  Rep said best performance with 93 Octane which he conceded is hard to get most place.  He noted it is not mandatory to run 93 octane.  Indmar has programmed into ECM what he termed as Octane scaling.  (May also apply to 410, 450)  If 93 not available engine management system scales back to match octane available.  Does defeat the purpose somewhat for buying the more expensive mill but at least the engine is protected if you cannot find the higher octane. 

Final word from Rep were quoted Top Speeds, HP, Torque values shown in table below. 

I added CA Carb HP off CA site.  (Converted from KW)

Quoted Top Speeds using standard prop.  410:  ~36mph   450: ~42mph    575: ~50+ in 23 LSV

HP & Torque specs quoted to me over the phone by Malibu Rep.

Indmar Raptor     Malibu Monsoon  HP+   Torque+      2016 CA Carb HP   CA Carb Link

400              410                        350*  404              350 (2015)

440              450                        400*  430              402 (2016)

575              575                        530*  575              520 (2015)

+ Malibu Rep said these are the Malibu certified numbers.

* Malibu Rep provided disclaimer that power ratings are + or – 5%  (Normal Variability in engines received from Ford)

- Torque curves are identical for the 410 & 450 to 3800 RPM. 

Hope this helps others who have questions about the new Raptor engine choices for 2016.   At least now I know what I will be buying for my money.  

I know that this article was written in 2016 but if the 450 is the 440 is the fuel octane below based on Indmars Specifications? I have 2018 24MXZ that has the 450 so can I use 89 octane?  Thanks for any help

[ORMailbuboater]

My answer would be yes on running 89 octane.  Indmar Monsoon 450 in Malibu boats is the Raptor 440 according to the Indmar Rep I spoke with.   Note:  Malibu does not use the Raptor 460 in the line up. 

Try Not to get confused further with the CHALLENGER AXIS MONSOON Series 450 designation found in the Axis boats by Pleasure Craft.  Two engines that say Monsoon 450....

BTW: I had not looked at the 2018 Indmar gas recommendation.  Nice to know that the 575 now shows an octane range is safe instead of 93 required as absolute like it was back in 2016.  

Edited August 22, 2018 by ORMailbuboater

[roonedoggie]

I have 5 hours on the boat and the dealer contacted me later to remind me about the 91/93 octane. Your article was helpful so when I fill up this weekend will go with 89 Octane. Thanks again for your help.