2016 Indmar Raptor\Monsoon Engine HP & Torque Ratings with answer from Malibu Factory Rep

[shawndoggy]

Good find!  Here are the curves:

440:

 

400:

[catalac]

Wow good find if those are legit. Basically the same hp and tq upto ~3500 rpm, where most of the time these motors live. Top end on the 440 might yield a couple more mph but should act the same for surfing, boarding etc below 3500.

[Sailvi767]

On April 3, 2016 at 3:04 PM, catalac said:

Wow good find if those are legit. Basically the same hp and tq upto ~3500 rpm, where most of the time these motors live. Top end on the 440 might yield a couple more mph but should act the same for surfing, boarding etc below 3500.

I did not get a chance to try it with the boat weighted but my boat goes right to 4300 to 4500 rpm when accelerating out of the hole unweighted. I suspect weighted the rpm will be more. 2016 VLX with the 450 motor running the standard prop. Top speed 41.5. Looks like the torque and hp curve is right where you want it. Those running the high altitude prop with a weighted boat may find the motor above 5000 rpm in the acceleration phase where you need the power. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Sailvi767

[DarkSide]

Not trying to start tq/HP debate, but there is a big difference between the 2 engines there also.  it just seams wrong to charge $7500 for a tune.  it looks as though they were trying to keep similar power options and pricing.  410 peaks at 350HP, 440 peaks at 410HP

It appears they are getting a little greedy with 450->575 @ $12k.  at least you are able to see hardware changes.

On the GM platform 410->450 = 7500  450->572= $4600

I suspect this is also to maintain margin.  as usually the 575 upgrade is in the bigger boats.  So when GM 409->450->575= $12k  Now with ford bigger boats have 440 standard.  So 440->575 = $12k keeps margins normal.  They did end up "giving" the $7500 upgrade away in the 24MXZ and 25 LSV. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by DarkSide

[catalac]

Would loved to have seen the gm direct injection motors as an option, H5 and H6 motors seem to be getting positive reviews. A severely detuned raptor to 350hp just seems to be going backwards.

[Tims]

5 hours ago, catalac said:

Would loved to have seen the gm direct injection motors as an option, H5 and H6 motors seem to be getting positive reviews. A severely detuned raptor to 350hp just seems to be going backwards.

Not sure I would agree that it's going backwards when the 5.7 it replaced had right around 300hp. Although I do agree that the 7500 up-charge is excessive. (But so are the prices many of the options available.)  Also take a look at the horsepower certification numbers of the H5 and H6, they are very close to the Raptor.

[MadMan]

This price is being set by capitalism, "What the market will bear".  Independent of what it cost to produce.

[ORMailbuboater]

Here is the final engine curves: 575 torque and HP curves as well.  Note graph starts at 1000 RPM not 1400 RPM

Edited May 10, 2019 by ORMailbuboater
Updated with graph fixed broken link

[MadMan]

53 minutes ago, ORMailbuboater said:

 Note graph starts at 1000 RPM not 1400 RPM

While the 400 ft lbs @ 1000 rpm is impressive, it doesn't really help in a boat.  You never are actually at wide open throttle at less than 2500 or maybe 3500 rpm.  When you go wide open from idle, the RPM immediately goes to maybe 3000 before it is loaded enough to use the horsepower.  My Monsoon flashes up to about 3800 before being loaded. The lower third of the graph doesn't really apply to boats.

This is of course not true if you have a very large diameter, large pitch prop.

[TallRedRider]

On 4/3/2016 at 7:26 AM, shawndoggy said:

Good find!  Here are the curves:

440:

 

400:

Can anyone work some magic and superimpose these two graphs?  

[ORMailbuboater]

12 hours ago, MadMan said:

While the 400 ft lbs @ 1000 rpm is impressive, it doesn't really help in a boat.  You never are actually at wide open throttle at less than 2500 or maybe 3500 rpm.  When you go wide open from idle, the RPM immediately goes to maybe 3000 before it is loaded enough to use the horsepower.  My Monsoon flashes up to about 3800 before being loaded. The lower third of the graph doesn't really apply to boats.

This is of course not true if you have a very large diameter, large pitch prop.

My note was to just point out that the graphs are different.  Not the same starting point.  

Also higher torque at lower RPM I would think translates to being able to run a higher pitch prop.  Wouldn't this mean lower RPMs at surf speeds?  Higher cruising speeds at lower RPM?   That is what I think you get out of the higher torque at lower RPM.  Also the torque curve is very smooth.    My 2 cents.  

[nohlan4]

12 hours ago, TallRedRider said:

Can anyone work some magic and superimpose these two graphs?

gif upload

Didnt' have photoshop so redid it in excel. There are notcieable gains but realistcially not a ton in the RPM range most boats tow at.....

[Sailvi767]

The gain however is where you need it which is where the boats accelerate. Once the boat is at speed power is not normally critical. The extra power in the acceleration phase translates into the ability to run a prop with more pitch for lower rpm overall. I was running 41.7 MPH top speed today yet the boat is strong out of the hole with the wedge in use, full internal ballast and two 800lb PNP. I am going to prop the boat up a bit more and will report back the results.

 

[catalac]

3200-3500 rpm cruise, surf, wakeboard is where motors are the same, to reiterate the point raptor 410 is the smart money motor, given the $7500 up charge for the 450. Unfortunately a mute point for me any way, sale of my 15 vlx fell through so looks like I get the monsoon 350 for another year, was looking forward to a 16.

[nohlan4]

37 minutes ago, catalac said:

3200-3500 rpm cruise, surf, wakeboard is where motors are the same, to reiterate the point raptor 410 is the smart money motor, given the $7500 up charge for the 450. Unfortunately a mute point for me any way, sale of my 15 vlx fell through so looks like I get the monsoon 350 for another year, was looking forward to a 16.

Yea exactly, who cares about 20 ftlbs outta the hole. 3500rpm they are indentical motors which means it's not worth it. Can prop them the same and get exact results when surfing, wakeboarding it would be a second difference to get on plane maybe....

[Sailvi767]

Having been around various boat types my whole life again I will point out again that when you are looking at various engine options you want peak torque to be in the acceleration phase as the boat is coming up on plane. Cruise is basically irrelevant.  Here is a shot of the boat loaded at wakeboard speeds. You can see it's got lots of power available. In the acceleration phase rpm was at 4500. 

The pics got reversed in adding them. The upper one is top speed empty. The lower pic is wake boarding.

Here

Edited April 7, 2016 by Sailvi767

[nohlan4]

Still don't think 20lbft tapering down over 1500rpm to equal is worth $7500 at all.

[Sailvi767]

6 minutes ago, nohlan4 said:

Still don't think 20lbft tapering down over 1500rpm to equal is worth $7500 at all.

No one pays 7500 for it. My cost was less then half that. 

[nohlan4]

You got 50% off msrp on a boat? That's a good deal haha.

[IXFE]

3 minutes ago, nohlan4 said:

You got 50% off msrp on a boat? That's a good deal haha.

Lol... Yeah, it would seem Sailvi's dealer is selling upgrades BELOW cost. I wonder why he gets such a deal... probably because he's been around boats all his life. 

[surfdude]

Easy, guys!?

[thtrog]

Sailvi, Is that just a service warning you're getting on the 23 MPH shot?

[Sailvi767]

2 hours ago, nohlan4 said:

 

2 hours ago, nohlan4 said:

 

2 hours ago, IXFE said:

Lol... Yeah, it would seem Sailvi's dealer is selling upgrades BELOW cost. I wonder why he gets such a deal... probably because he's been around boats all his life. 

Seems like reading comprehension is a bit low here. We are talking engine upgrade. When it comes time to close the deal I bet you will find that getting a engine upgrade at dealer cost is not that hard. List was not 7500 when I ordered the boat either.

1 hour ago, thtrog said:

Sailvi, Is that just a service warning you're getting on the 23 MPH shot?

Yes it is. Boat is in the shop now. Warning was (fuel trim short) Data valid but above normal. No idea what that means however dealer said bring it in.

[ORMailbuboater]

2 hours ago, Sailvi767 said:

 

Seems like reading comprehension is a bit low here. We are talking engine upgrade. When it comes time to close the deal I bet you will find that getting a engine upgrade at dealer cost is not that hard. List was not 7500 when I ordered the boat either.

Yes it is. Boat is in the shop now. Warning was (fuel trim short) Data valid but above normal. No idea what that means however dealer said bring it in.

Warning was (fuel trim short) Data valid but above normal.

Adaptive Learning / Fuel Trim:  Fuel trim is a two part adaptive strategy that adjusts fuel injector pulse width (open time) to adapt to wear, defects, or changes in the system. The two parts of a computers fuel trim adaptive strategy are short term fuel trim STFT (additive) and long term fuel trim LTFT (multiplicative).

Short term fuel trim adjustments are short temporary adjustments that happen immediately. Long term fuel trim is accumulated over time and stored in memory. It is often the result of several STFT adjustments that exceeded a 25% increase or decrease over time. STFT adaptive strategies use drive maps written after extensive tests performed by engineers using equipment like dynamometers.

Could be too many short term adjustments being made outside of design parameters is triggering the error message. 

[DarkSide]

One other notable, I think expecting 3200-3500 surf cruise RPM is wishful thinking.  Keep in mind '16 has 1.76:1 Tranny.  It will inherently be much higher thus placing the real usage a above 4000, which is where the 2 engines really start to separate.   Even with lower ratio tranny last year IXFE was running 4000RPM surfing.  Granted there will be a different props to offset the tranny.  But I don't foresee 3200 RPM surfing.

 

Edited April 7, 2016 by DarkSide