2016 Indmar Raptor\Monsoon Engine HP & Torque Ratings with answer from Malibu Factory Rep

[Sailvi767]

Just to clarify so people don't get confused the SD or super duty version is the lower HP of the two variants produced by Ford. If the above posts are correct Indmar buys the higher HP version from Ford and then detunes it to create the base motor.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Sailvi767

[catalac]

two comments 1. Just because he's a Malibu rep doesn't mean he knows, 2. Search function here and forums of other boats company's who use the 6.2L would answer many of your questions, I beleive the consensus is the 450 and the 410 do not have the same cams, not unlike the ford super duty version of the 6.2 vs the f150 6.2L.

[Tims]

40 minutes ago, catalac said:

two comments 1. Just because he's a Malibu rep doesn't mean he knows, 2. Search function here and forums of other boats company's who use the 6.2L would answer many of your questions, I beleive the consensus is the 450 and the 410 do not have the same cams, not unlike the ford super duty version of the 6.2 vs the f150 6.2L.

According to the folks that I know at Indmar, the Ford 6.2 engine is SPECIFICALLY built for Indmar to Indmar Marine specs. It is Not the F250 super duty engine. It is not the Raptor truck engine. It has it's own part number/model code at Ford. It does use the Raptor cams and heads which are different than those on the super duty. They are different than the export version of the engine too. Basically, they mixed and matched all the best Ford parts for the marine duty cycle. Difference between the 400 and 440 is a tune.

 

[catalac]

I guess the great indmar raptor debate continues then, no way I can see a 40hp diff same internals on same octane naturally aspirated gas engine with a tune. Everything I've ever seen from aftermarket for engine tuners they can maybe squeak 18-25 hp providing a hot tune to a gas engine but with 93 octane vs 87. I think the more reasonable explanation is ford had a boat load of 6.2's built sitting after the end of the 14 f150 model change and lack luster uptake of gas super duties and subsequently cut indmar a deal way below gm crate pricing. And the discussion revolved around both surplus SD motors 385hp and F150 411 motors to maranize to 400 and 440 badges. Then again the secrecy indmar has on specs makes me skeptical, indeed could be a badge a 15 hp tune and money grab.

[Sailvi767]

7 hours ago, catalac said:

I guess the great indmar raptor debate continues then, no way I can see a 40hp diff same internals on same octane naturally aspirated gas engine with a tune. Everything I've ever seen from aftermarket for engine tuners they can maybe squeak 18-25 hp providing a hot tune to a gas engine but with 93 octane vs 87. I think the more reasonable explanation is ford had a boat load of 6.2's built sitting after the end of the 14 f150 model change and lack luster uptake of gas super duties and subsequently cut indmar a deal way below gm crate pricing. And the discussion revolved around both surplus SD motors 385hp and F150 411 motors to maranize to 400 and 440 badges. Then again the secrecy indmar has on specs makes me skeptical, indeed could be a badge a 15 hp tune and money grab.

i agree with some of what your saying but I don't really agree with the theory that Ford had a bunch of leftover engines. Pretty much all manufacturing now days is geared to bringing the parts together to make the product on a real time basis. It's very expensive and wasteful to stockpile parts or assemblies. Just in time manufacturing has been in place for a long time in the car industry. It is possible that they had surplus manufacturing capacity and offered a good deal on new build engines. Indmar for their part insists they picked the 6.2 because it was the best choice for tow boat applications. So far it's probably one of the most trouble free engine introductions for boats ever done. Keep in mind these engines have been going in other brands since summer of 2013. 

 

[Tims]

8 hours ago, catalac said:

I guess the great indmar raptor debate continues then, no way I can see a 40hp diff same internals on same octane naturally aspirated gas engine with a tune. Everything I've ever seen from aftermarket for engine tuners they can maybe squeak 18-25 hp providing a hot tune to a gas engine but with 93 octane vs 87. I think the more reasonable explanation is ford had a boat load of 6.2's built sitting after the end of the 14 f150 model change and lack luster uptake of gas super duties and subsequently cut indmar a deal way below gm crate pricing. And the discussion revolved around both surplus SD motors 385hp and F150 411 motors to maranize to 400 and 440 badges. Then again the secrecy indmar has on specs makes me skeptical, indeed could be a badge a 15 hp tune and money grab.

If you go to the CA air resource board data base you can get real horsepower ratings for the ford 6.2 variants. There are actually 3 models of the naturally aspirated 6.2 that Indmar lists under the same certification. (T300/T400/T440) The T400 is rated at 350hp and the T440 is rated at 398hp. At the end of the day it probably doesn't really matter what the difference is. (Tune or cams.) The real questions: Is it worth the upgrade cost? From my experience behind both engines, the 400 is the value motor. 

The price that Indmar charges Malibu for the 440 is no where near the 7K MSRP upgrade cost that the customer sees, so it's not really a total money grab. All upgrade costs are negotiable.  

 

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/offroad/cert/cert_results.php?order=0 

Edited March 29, 2016 by Tims

[shawndoggy]

Tims, what's the dif between the T300 and the T400/440?  Does that one actually have different internals or is it just a really really bad tune?

Looks like sanger is using that one as their base motor this year.

[Tims]

49 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Tims, what's the dif between the T300 and the T400/440?  Does that one actually have different internals or is it just a really really bad tune?

Looks like sanger is using that one as their base motor this year.

Same internals except for a different (cheaper?) transmission. Motor is reported to have around the same hp and torque of the old 5.7.   

[67King]

On 3/28/2016 at 8:47 PM, IXFE said:

So here's a dumb question...

why do we assume that just because Ford has two different 6.2's (Super Duty & Raptor) that the two different engines Indmar sells originate from those two different Ford engines?  I mean, isn't it possible Indmar is buying ONE engine and applying different tunes to each?

edit: I'm kinda surprised @67King isn't chiming in more. I have a feeling he knows a lot about this topic. 

I'll try to chime in later this week.  Really slammed right now.

[shawndoggy]

1 hour ago, Tims said:

Same internals except for a different (cheaper?) transmission. Motor is reported to have around the same hp and torque of the old 5.7.   

but if the internals are the same, why so much less HP and torque?  Just a significant detune to not blow up the tranny?

[Tims]

2 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

but if the internals are the same, why so much less HP and torque?  Just a significant detune to not blow up the tranny?

I don't have answers for those questions Shawn. Since the transmission is cheaper and the engine has less sensors I am guessing that it is just a base option for boat builders to help with their margin. Pretty smart move by Indmar if you ask me. Increase your product portfolio but only have the overhead and working capital for necessary for one engine. 

[Technicallyabu]

Lots of smoke and mirrors with engine marinizers.  Its not like we have a choice to pick PCM, Indmar or Ilmor within the Malibu lineup so why not just post the specs and be done?  Its even worse now with the Raptor line supposedly being distinguished by torque rather than hp.  When there is $7,500 on the line, like between the 400 and 440, I'd like to be able to make an informed choice.    

[skurfer]

15 hours ago, Tims said:

Same internals except for a different (cheaper?) transmission. Motor is reported to have around the same hp and torque of the old 5.7.   

I've driven both, the 2015 5.7 in a Sanger V215 is very fast. The 2016 6.2 is a rocket! Even in the turns. I've heard good reviews with the new Indmar motor, they put them in some Jet boats that run up the snake river. Tons and tons of hours on them and no issues. This coming from an Indmar rep. Having said that, we delivered a 2016 Sanger V215 yesterday and check engine popped up. O2 sensors. Very annoying. This is after a flawless dealer water test, demo with the customer, then deliver the boat to the lake. Check engine.... Ugh...

[IXFE]

7 hours ago, Technicallyabu said:

 When there is $7,500 on the line, like between the 400 and 440, I'd like to be able to make an informed choice.    

An informed decision is precisely what they are trying to prevent, it would seem.  They want you to make the decision based on marketing... the fake 410 vs 450 numbers... and nothing else  

Honestly, there is no excuse for the lack of information. What other product have you bought where information about it is so obviously obscured?  Whether it's a car, tv, smartphone, or fast food cheeseburger... all the data is published and easy to find. But with $100k boat we tolerate this game of deception. 

At least with the old engines we could hang our hats on displacement. And in that world, I did pay to upgrade. But I won't pay money for an upgrade that may or may not be real. 

[MadMan]

I remember a few years ago when Briggs and Stratton got sued because they overrated the horsepower of their lawnmower engines.  Maybe Indmar is trying to prevent something like that.  You always meet the requirement if you don't spec the horsepower.

[MLBurns]

Reminds me of the towing commercial where the trucks had different gear ratios in small print above each "comparable" truck in a towing contest, the one that won had the best ratio for towing. The others had more of a highway/economy gear. I bet they reeled in a bunch of suckers on that ad. Made me laugh.

[haller]

I am looking at a 2012 wakesetter with 555 hp supercharged do you happen to know anything about this set up

[IXFE]

Spoke to an industry insider today. Without revealing his identity I'll just say he procures 1000's of boat engines and was very involved in the switchover to Ford blocks. Here's what I learned. 

There is ZERO hardware difference (besides the plastic cover) between the Raptor 400 and 440 (aka Monsoon 410 and 450). The only difference is in the software. 

To make his point he told me about an experience when they were testing the new Ford motors... He was on the water with the Indmar technician who reprogrammed a 400 into a 440 while they were out!!  So reprogramming a 400 into a 440 is technically feasible, although Indmar doesn't allow it for obvious reasons. 

Hopefully that helps!!

[TenTwentyOne]

9 hours ago, IXFE said:

Spoke to an industry insider today. Without revealing his identity I'll just say he procures 1000's of boat engines and was very involved in the switchover to Ford blocks. Here's what I learned. 

There is ZERO hardware difference (besides the plastic cover) between the Raptor 400 and 440 (aka Monsoon 410 and 450). The only difference is in the software. 

To make his point he told me about an experience when they were testing the new Ford motors... He was on the water with the Indmar technician who reprogrammed a 400 into a 440 while they were out!!  So reprogramming a 400 into a 440 is technically feasible, although Indmar doesn't allow it for obvious reasons. 

Hopefully that helps!!

Not too surprised to hear this. The super duty vs F150 6.2l debate has certainly been beat to death on Ford forums, and it has always been a mystery why they had two variants, and why they would put more power in the F150, than the F250. As far as I know, there is but one simple reason......... Ford needed at least one Flex fuel option in the super duty line. This is probably the reason for the slightly different cams, and programming in the ford trucks. The F-150 6.2l is not Flex fuel, but they didn't need it to be, as the F150 line had other engine options for that.

 

From indmar's standpoint, why bother having two different long blocks? Especially when there is no demand for Flex fuel compatibility in a boat.

 

As for those wondering how only tuning could possibly net a 40hp difference- That is very easy for them to do. With these engines being drive-by-wire, they can be easily detuned in large amounts. Heck, Indmar could do a 200hp version with a simple tune if they wanted.

[catalac]

On March 31, 2016 at 9:03 PM, IXFE said:

Spoke to an industry insider today. Without revealing his identity I'll just say he procures 1000's of boat engines and was very involved in the switchover to Ford blocks. Here's what I learned. 

There is ZERO hardware difference (besides the plastic cover) between the Raptor 400 and 440 (aka Monsoon 410 and 450). The only difference is in the software. 

To make his point he told me about an experience when they were testing the new Ford motors... He was on the water with the Indmar technician who reprogrammed a 400 into a 440 while they were out!!  So reprogramming a 400 into a 440 is technically feasible, although Indmar doesn't allow it for obvious reasons. 

Hopefully that helps!!

If indeed it is just a tune, lets hope someone cracks the ecu like all the vehicle programmers do and for 500 bucks you can "superchip" your 6.2. I had a tuner on my F150 6.2, didn't make a lot of diff but was rated to add plus 14hp and I believe 23lbs torque all on 87. Would be nice if the 350 hp monsoon 410 could be flashed to 425hp and 457tq for $500. Likely too small a market for company to work on it but would be cool. I wonder how expensive a 440 ecu would cost to buy as a part and bolt on to a 410??

[Shodan01]

Just throw a Diablo Sport Tuner on it :-)  LOL - I know that there are several reputable tuners online, I couldn't imagine it to be too difficult, except of the voiding of warranty.

[ctvandy23]

7 hours ago, Shodan01 said:

Just throw a Diablo Sport Tuner on it :-)  LOL - I know that there are several reputable tuners online, I couldn't imagine it to be too difficult, except of the voiding of warranty.

Maybe I could use my tuner for my Mustang...ha ha. We just need someone to write the correct tune.  You're right though, it would void the warranty!

[TallRedRider]

On 3/29/2016 at 3:40 PM, Technicallyabu said:

Lots of smoke and mirrors with engine marinizers.  Its not like we have a choice to pick PCM, Indmar or Ilmor within the Malibu lineup so why not just post the specs and be done?  Its even worse now with the Raptor line supposedly being distinguished by torque rather than hp.  When there is $7,500 on the line, like between the 400 and 440, I'd like to be able to make an informed choice.    

Perhaps they don't want us to know in order to stop us from going to a different manufacturer rather than choosing the specific engine for our Malibus?    If you found that Ilmore or PCM had better specs, I suspect some people would switch brands.  

And what IXFE said, it seems the bigger engines likely have a much bigger markup.  Especially if we have discovered here that the 440 has a $7500 tune job, and that is the only difference.

[oldjeep]

well I'd assume part of the $7500 is a reserve for warranty work on an engine that is running in a higher failure mode.

[ORMailbuboater]

Thanks to every who joined in the conversation about the new Raptor engines.  And the information everyone dug up from Malibu and Indmar.  As someone said the information is out on the web.    

Today I stumbled across torque\horsepower curves for all 3 Raptor engines from two "different" Indmar brochures.  Both brochure are said to be for different applications but the engine torque/hp curves are identical.  Assume the these are the same for tow boats.  Brochures for Jet boat application (Raptor Jet Series by Indmar) and Cruisers (Gemini Series) on the same URL.  Link:  Indmar engine brochures   Not sure how to post the curves on the site or I would have.