Will this fat sac idea work?

[chathamsolutions]

OK, I'm first to admit I didn't understand much of Tracie's description of her Fly-Hi Conversion or Ken W's discussion of the W747 / B52 Spurs vs. Pistons instal. Though they both sound very cool.

Please tell me if you think this would work.

1. I'm trying to make this as simple as possible. Because of my pump / attachment retardation issues (yes, I'm seeing a physician. He's prescribred some cream and I'm taking injections as well.)

2. I want to get as much water in my rear lockers as possible.

- Right now we fill each hard locker tank (apx. 200lbs.) and put two 440 SL sacs in the locker. It's so much that we can't close the locker door. I'd like to be able to do that. It also takes a lot of time to manually fill each sac, move both sacs from one locker to the other for regular vs. goofy foot, drain time, etc.

3. If it were automated that would be IDEAL.

Here's what I'm thinking.

- Take out the hard tanks.

- Replace with Fly High 750Lb tanks.

- Replace existing pumps with BIGGER pumps. IE Tracie type pumps. Maybe not that big, but bigger than are in there now.

- Use all the existing hardware that's in the boat, just replace the pump and add the proper fittings so the Fly High's will fill drain - just like the hard tanks do now.

Won't that work? One pump, fill / drain, use the existing through holes, etc.? ? ?

Please help.

[WakeGirl]

Andy,

What I would do is to take it one step at a time. The very first thing that I would do would be to take out the tanks & install the bags with the stock plumbing. Get that working & see what your fill times are with the stock pumps as well as troubleshoot any difficulties that you have before tearing into the boat. That way you have an idea of where to go once you're in. If you do it all at once, you could end up tearing things apart several different times....not fun.

For the pumps, you'll see diminishing returns if you try to go with something as large as I did & then you run into problems because of the sheer size of the pump - there are only so many places that they can go, & they have to be below the waterline to maintain prime. The other reason that you'll see diminishing returns is that those sacks reduce down to 3/4" at the connection, so that limits things. IMO, the sweet spot for pump speed when using 3/4" line is about 1100gph (ish). The stock pumps that they've been using are 800gph, but I'm not overly impressed by them since the Tsunami 800 that I bought seems to hand them their lunch (that little pump would literally be plug & play on the fill side, on the empty side you'd need a couple of adapters to do the quick connect thing, but that's easy stuff).

One other thing, I think that the stock system utilizes a line off of the fill line that acts as an pressure relief line for the overflow line (check yours, it may be different since it's a hard tank). With the Fly High sacks, you have 3 valves & I would encourage you to use that third valve as an independent overflow. With bags it's important that they can burp the air out, this allows them to easily & automatically do that.

EDIT: Something else that I just thought of is possibly needing a check valve. I remember RiverRunner saying that the bags will empty out the fill line because of their size when full & he installed a check valve on each fill line to prevent that happening. One other option would be to use automatic solenoid valves as Cervelo mentioned using in his system. Hopefully he'll chime in & let us know what he used.

[srud]

Andy,

To help with the various fittings for the sacs, go here. http://home.comcast.net/~lreinsma/ Then find the Pro X fittings page under the wakeboarding products section. That page can help you with the fittings product codes you have been seeing in Tracie's and other posts.

For a quick connect situation that utilizes your stock setup (That's what I did) you would need 3 sets of W736/W740 per side. That is one set for the fill line, one set for the drain and one for the vent line. If you go to bigger pumps and tubing, you would probably use W743/W741 1" quick connects.

This is not the only way to hook them up, but it does allow you to easily remove the bags to allow the lockers to dry after a day on the water.

[Brad B]

We have those same SL 440s

And set ours up before all those cool ProX things were the fancy of all Wakeland.

Very simple - we removed the hard tanks and put the SL 440s in their place and plumbed them in like the hard tanks were.

A few tweaks and additions: had to extend the fill line to reach the bag and put a Brady check valve inline where the old and new hose joined - used braided 3/4" ID hose from Home Depot.

That hose will fit snug right in thebag openings and a stainless hose clamp will seal it fine - eliminates the need for a bunch of fittings - especially the plastic blue waterbed ones that break a lot.

Thats it pure and simple - then you can get bigger bags as needed and slip 'em right in the SL 440s space.

All removes very ez for complete draining and to allow trunk to dry.

I've got pics somewhere

[smedman]

chatham,

i'm dealing with the same thing - wanted to install automatic, but have since put that project on the backburner for a little while.

i had two 400lb sacs in the locker with the stock tank and couldn't close the door either.

i bought one 750 to see how it did. actually left the stock tank in there and am still using the pump (for now, until i get the guts to do the Tracie/Ken thing). and it works great. the 750 fills and drains fairly quickly with the tsunami. if have few people in the boat i'll sometimes fill up one of 400#s part way (so that I can still close the locker) and throw it on top. I'm usually able to keep it just full enough so that two people can lift it out and put it on the other side for regular riders.

the only issue i see with replacing the tanks with the fat sac only, is that you'll only get 750lbs whereas now you are getting probably closer to 1000ish.

in my view, that's the trade off for going automated on the stock pumps, switches, etc

- unless of course you call Fly High and have them build a custom sac that will fill the entire locker (with the stock tank removed). they can do that, but it will probably cost you a couple extra $100 -- may be worth it if you don't have to buy extra pumps, drill the boat, etc...

then you would probably need automatic solenoid valves (I have no idea what they are) to help keep them from draining...

[WakeGirl]

then you would probably need automatic solenoid valves (I have no idea what they are) to help keep them from draining...

Basically it's just a valve similar in function to a ball valve, but runs off of 12 volt to open, shut is with no current running to it. So if you wire it to open when your fill pump comes on, you're golden because it will automatically shut when the switch is turned off at the dash. This is a pretty cool way to go because it will absolutely close that line, preventing siphoning back through the fill pump or auto filling (some have that problem too).

[Brad B]

One of the things I like about the Launch Pad 440s we use in the trunks is that even when full there is still a little room for jackets.

And I don't recall any complaints about our surf wake

[SacRiverRat]

The hard tanks plus the 440's isn't 1000lbs.. Probably not getting all 440lbs, plus the 200lb stock hard tanks.. lets call it 600lbs for good measure - plus Andy can't close his locker.

Just pull the hard tanks out - it is super easy, and connect the fill line to the front/top of the sack, and then move the drain pump and attach it directly to the back (bottom) of the sack.. I had to extend the wires, plus I put in an electrical disconnect, so I could pull the sack out, leaving the pump connected (it has to twist in, so easier if it isn't already wired to the boat)

You will find that you now have TONS more room in the lockers, for the times when you aren't running ballast, or for when you are trailering etc..

[chathamsolutions]

As always, WAAAAAAAY too many options / variables here.

I agree smed, I want to put as much weight in there as possible. If I could just 'T' off the existing pump and stick the 750 in there, that'd be DA BOMB.

I'd like to trade out the existing pumps for something faster - maybe a 2000GPH pump. I know Tracie mentioned space, but there's plenty of space under my gunnels. I'm sure I could fit the 1100GPH handheld I've got under there.

OK, am I right in thinking there's two pumps per tank in my boat. There is right? One to fill and one to drain - right? Like Tracie said, she's got the bigger ones to fill and uses the smaller one to drain.

So I could buy a 2000GPH Rule to replace my existing FILL pump, leave the drain pump as is - right?

Anyone know of a good location to purchase a pump in that range? Amazon / ebay has them for $104.

[chathamsolutions]

The hard tanks plus the 440's isn't 1000lbs.. Probably not getting all 440lbs, plus the 200lb stock hard tanks.. lets call it 600lbs for good measure - plus Andy can't close his locker.

Just pull the hard tanks out - it is super easy, and connect the fill line to the front/top of the sack, and then move the drain pump and attach it directly to the back (bottom) of the sack.. I had to extend the wires, plus I put in an electrical disconnect, so I could pull the sack out, leaving the pump connected (it has to twist in, so easier if it isn't already wired to the boat)

You will find that you now have TONS more room in the lockers, for the times when you aren't running ballast, or for when you are trailering etc..

That's good info, thanks.

With the two SL's I can get it close to closing, but not quite.

[SacRiverRat]

Andy - if you want to come up to Oroville, I'd be happy to show you my basic setup.. where I simply removed the hard tank and am recycling the stock fill & drain pumps.

The fill pump is mounted in the stock location (in a thru-hull near the v-drive) and the drain pump is in the sack. I don't have any serious fill drain time issues...

Personally I didn't like the 750's as much, and went back to the pro-x 550's. Just too much sack in there. I still use separate sacks for surfing, if I don't have a big crew - but for boarding, having all that 750 sloshing around was a lot (IMO)

[WakeGirl]

I'd like to trade out the existing pumps for something faster - maybe a 2000GPH pump. I know Tracie mentioned space, but there's plenty of space under my gunnels. I'm sure I could fit the 1100GPH handheld I've got under there.

The thing that you have to remember about these aerator pumps is that they are not self priming, so they have to be below the waterline, read, in the bilge. That all by itself is a big hurdle that will cause you to compromise something if you want to use the stock setup. Take a look under your vdrive compartment - you'll see the fill pumps, one on each side of the vdrive unit. They're attached in the same type of plug that you pull when you pull the boat out & in direct contact with the water, to maintain prime.

[SacRiverRat]

Andy - I'm with Tracie on the 'keep it simple to start with'... route. There isn't any reason why you couldn't just use the stock pumps...

using the stock fill pump, means you don't have to do anything - just remove the hose from the hard tank, and connect it to the top/front of the sack

The back pump is a little more tricky, just because you have to extend the wires to get the pump to relocate from the front of the locker to the back of the locker (so the bag can drain fully)

Start with that - if you don't like the fill times, theeeen you can go back and tweak

[WakeGirl]

Exactly, plus it keeps your troubleshooting to a minimum. And, it will probably be faster this way anyway, just because you're not fiddling with pumps & mulitple bags.

[chathamsolutions]

OK, OK... I'll do that.

Thanks guys.

BTW - I WAS just at Oroville. Haven't you read the novela yet? Where were you?!

http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/index....ndpost&p=114044

[stewart]

OK, OK... I'll do that.

Thanks guys.

BTW - I WAS just at Oroville. Haven't you read the novela yet? Where were you?!

http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/index....ndpost&p=114044

we read it.......... the bigger question is, why aren't you going to be there this weekend?????????

[chathamsolutions]

I'm driving my wife up to a youth girls camp this weekend. She'll be up there for a week.

I'll be a batchler for a week and am looking for some projects to keep me busy.

[hyperlitenerd]

For a project, Id take out the hard tanks, and get 2 custom fat sacs from boarders paradise to fit in the locker. but that's just what id do...

[WakeGirl]

Okay, here's what you need then:

2 - Fly High Pro X Fat Sac

Each sack should come with 1 of these quick connects that you'll use for the pumps (attached to the bag):

W730

These fittings will screw on to the empty pumps & connect with the above fittings, creating a quick connect system:

2 - W732

For the fill & overflow lines, you'll need these:

4 - W736 - attached to the bag

4 - W740 or (depending on whether or not you need an elbow) W742

This system will make it very easy to pull the bags out to let everything dry out & all of those fittings will go right into your existing lines. As SRR mentioned, you may need to extend the empty line depending on placement, but you can easily find 3/4" braided tubing at either Home Depot or Lowe's. Wakeside has all of these fittings as well, but with the Buywake 20% off code plus free shipping over $100, it's a better deal through Buywake.

[SacRiverRat]

OK, OK... I'll do that.

Thanks guys.

BTW - I WAS just at Oroville. Haven't you read the novela yet? Where were you?!

http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/index....ndpost&p=114044

we read it.......... the bigger question is, why aren't you going to be there this weekend?????????

ah - you beat me to it Stewart...

[chathamsolutions]

Okay, here's what you need then:

2 - Fly High Pro X Fat Sac

Each sack should come with 1 of these quick connects that you'll use for the pumps (attached to the bag):

W730

These fittings will screw on to the empty pumps & connect with the above fittings, creating a quick connect system:

2 - W732

For the fill & overflow lines, you'll need these:

4 - W736 - attached to the bag

4 - W740 or (depending on whether or not you need an elbow) W742

This system will make it very easy to pull the bags out to let everything dry out & all of those fittings will go right into your existing lines. As SRR mentioned, you may need to extend the empty line depending on placement, but you can easily find 3/4" braided tubing at either Home Depot or Lowe's. Wakeside has all of these fittings as well, but with the Buywake 20% off code plus free shipping over $100, it's a better deal through Buywake.

Excellent.

Thank you Tracie! You're DA BOMB. And you can tell Joe I said that

[WakeGirl]

He tells me that with regularity. Let us know how it goes.

[chathamsolutions]

I'm a bit more familiar with the pumps and how they work, since I've had some issues with my lines - one broke off to my bow ballast.

Anyway, this is my latest thinking on the subject of modifying my rear ballast tank configuration.

1. I want as much weight in the rear as possible.

2. Surfing specific - I want to be able to switch my surfing wake with the flip of a switch

3. I want to try and keep my hard tanks.

4. I want it to be automated.

5. I want it to be the least amount of work possible.

The picture below is how I understand my ballast system - forgive the 5 year old drawing please.

What I'm looking for help with is the red arrow that goes FROM the hard tank TO the fat sacs.

Does anyone know of a fitting that will attach to the hard tank siding and allow the overflow from the hard tank to empty into a fat sac?

FILL

The idea is to have one pump that will FILL both the hard tank and the fat sac. Once the hard tank is full it will over flow into the fat sac.

EMPTY

I can simply hook a Y to the drain pump and empty both the fat sac and the hard tank at the same time.

With this configuration I won't have to drill any more holes into my hull. I could buy a slightly bigger FILL pump, but the drain pumps should be fine to do the job.

Thoughts?

Edited September 11, 2006 by chathamsolutions

[Gordo]

You could just put "T's" (what you are calling "Y's" in the red line. Then both would fill at the same time. Same with the empty. You would have to put the "T" in front of the empty pump. Quick connects all the way around would enable you to pull the sacs to dry out the boat after use. Are your hard tanks above the floor in the rear lockers??

[chathamsolutions]

Ya, I dont' see why that wouldn't work. Cool idea.

Yes, the hard tanks were above the floor in 2004.