Engine struggled after de-winterizing

[jfw432]

A paperclip jumper and an LED bulb that flashes. I guess the word "scanner" is a bit misleading. Sorry about that.

[jbower]

I wouldn't rule it out. Hot engine typically uses less fuel

Typically if it had codes stored  you would have an alarm or cel. 

[jfw432]

Well everything I did today was a bust. I didn't want to crank the engine to get a fuel pressure with the water pump off, I tried to read the codes on the MEFI but couldn't make the LED flash for some reason, and it got dark before I could do a leakdown check. 

[Sixball]

What did the old plugs look like,  Rich, lean, heavy carbon?   Twice now I have found the oil pressure sensor that services  to the ECU not the gauge hanging up. It can stop fuel flow if it is happening. A long shot as I thought it will shut the fuel pump off nothing in between, but it easy to pull and flush. Any cleaner carb cleaner, even gas.                                                                                                                                                            How is the exhaust flow at start up? Could you have a muffler silencer brake down, causing hi back pressure at start up? The leak down will tell a lot internally.   

[electricjohn]

I'll bet the engine just ingested a bit of water from the fuel tank.  Sitting for 4 weeks would let any small amount of water to settle in the pick-up bulge of the fuel tank.  Hopefully all the water is gone now.  The bulge holds about 1-2 quarts (liters) of fuel.

[Cap305]

I've had similar issues in the past with rough idle/sputtering ONLY during warm up and only at idle or trying to initially get on plane.  I didn't have the smoke issue though.  Here's a couple things to try.  1- disconnect the battery completely so that the ECU resets.  Then reconnect and fire up the boat when it's been sitting.  See if that helps.  2- If step 1 temporarily helps (it does for me) I'm guessing you have the same issue I have that has yet to be fully diagnosed.  I am planning on taking the boat to the dealer sometime in late March to have the codes read by Malibu even though one mechanic who scanned it said no codes.  I've had issues with this for the past two years on and off.  I've replaced the fuel, fuel pump, plugs, plug wires, fuel filters, TPS/IAC/Coolant Temp Sensor replaced, and had the distributor cap/rotor replaced.  All to no avail.  

[jfw432]

1 hour ago, electricjohn said:

I'll bet the engine just ingested a bit of water from the fuel tank.  Sitting for 4 weeks would let any small amount of water to settle in the pick-up bulge of the fuel tank.  Hopefully all the water is gone now.  The bulge holds about 1-2 quarts (liters) of fuel.

I've definitely let it sit for 3-4 weeks during the summer without any problems though. The only thing different is really just the water being drained.

 

45 minutes ago, Cap305 said:

I've had similar issues in the past with rough idle/sputtering ONLY during warm up and only at idle or trying to initially get on plane.  I didn't have the smoke issue though.  Here's a couple things to try.  1- disconnect the battery completely so that the ECU resets.  Then reconnect and fire up the boat when it's been sitting.  See if that helps.  2- If step 1 temporarily helps (it does for me) I'm guessing you have the same issue I have that has yet to be fully diagnosed.  I am planning on taking the boat to the dealer sometime in late March to have the codes read by Malibu even though one mechanic who scanned it said no codes.  I've had issues with this for the past two years on and off.  I've replaced the fuel, fuel pump, plugs, plug wires, fuel filters, TPS/IAC/Coolant Temp Sensor replaced, and had the distributor cap/rotor replaced.  All to no avail.  

Well the smoke issue isn't like a mosquito truck. Just a little more than normal if you're paying attention and trying to rev the engine.

Sounds like a very similar issue to mine. Does yours seem to stumble for a second or two when you first try to get on plane at the beginning of the day? Mine does that even if I took it out the day before. I just assumed it was related the fuel system not being fully primed.

[Cap305]

Yes, mine will stumble the first time out for the day IF I don't fully warm it up at the dock or have reset the computer via the Perko.  It only really happens while in gear at a low idle when around 120-140F.  At full cold it's fine and at full hot it's fine.  Restarting it later in the day after sitting, no issues.  It's been maddening.  My fear is that it's ECU related and that's a big expense.  

[Bill_AirJunky]

34 minutes ago, Cap305 said:

Yes, mine will stumble the first time out for the day IF I don't fully warm it up at the dock or have reset the computer via the Perko.  It only really happens while in gear at a low idle when around 120-140F.  At full cold it's fine and at full hot it's fine.  Restarting it later in the day after sitting, no issues.  It's been maddening.  My fear is that it's ECU related and that's a big expense.  

You may be giving the ECU too much credit. The system on these boats is a lot more simple than on a car or truck. They make very few changes based on sensor readings. I turn my Perko switch off every night on the dock all summer long & I've never had any issues with it.

[Cap305]

Bill, I don't actually think it's the perko shut-off causing the issue.  I think I'm actually "fooling" the ECU a bit when I reset it.  It goes through a learning process after reset I believe.  I think my issue is either with some sensor I haven't replaced feeding bad info to the ECU or the ECU itself causing a problem with low/mid temp fuel/air mixture.  Either way, I thought it may be something he could try to see if it does the temporary fix like it does for me.  

[jfw432]

4 minutes ago, Cap305 said:

Bill, I don't actually think it's the perko shut-off causing the issue.  I think I'm actually "fooling" the ECU a bit when I reset it.  It goes through a learning process after reset I believe.  I think my issue is either with some sensor I haven't replaced feeding bad info to the ECU or the ECU itself causing a problem with low/mid temp fuel/air mixture.  Either way, I thought it may be something he could try to see if it does the temporary fix like it does for me.  

I do have a battery switch that I never installed on my last boat. Might be an option to mount that switch in a convenient location and trick the ECU into a learning mode every time I start it at the beginning of an outing.....if all else fails that is.

[oldjeep]

18 hours ago, jfw432 said:

Well everything I did today was a bust. I didn't want to crank the engine to get a fuel pressure with the water pump off, I tried to read the codes on the MEFI but couldn't make the LED flash for some reason, and it got dark before I could do a leakdown check. 

You don't have to crank the engine, just turn the key to on.

[electricjohn]

3 hours ago, jfw432 said:

I do have a battery switch that I never installed on my last boat. Might be an option to mount that switch in a convenient location and trick the ECU into a learning mode every time I start it at the beginning of an outing.....if all else fails that is.

The ECU does not have a learning mode.  The only thing it does at key-up is look at barometric pressure via the MAP sensor and engine temperature via the coolant temp sensor.  Do you know how to test the coolant sensor?

4 hours ago, jfw432 said:

I've definitely let it sit for 3-4 weeks during the summer without any problems though. The only thing different is really just the water being drained.

 

.

You don't get the condensation causing temperature swings in summer like you do this time of year.

Edited March 2, 2016 by electricjohn

[jbower]

I can tell you it sounds exactly like what my friends response did and it was the fuel pressure regulator screen. It was always worse when cold and would stumble under accel when it was cold and smoked like crazy

[Bill_AirJunky]

3 hours ago, Cap305 said:

Bill, I don't actually think it's the perko shut-off causing the issue.  I think I'm actually "fooling" the ECU a bit when I reset it.  It goes through a learning process after reset I believe.  I think my issue is either with some sensor I haven't replaced feeding bad info to the ECU or the ECU itself causing a problem with low/mid temp fuel/air mixture.  Either way, I thought it may be something he could try to see if it does the temporary fix like it does for me.  

I understand your thought process on this, but like I said, I think your giving the ECU too much credit. A phone call to Indmar or Skidim might be very informative for you.

I had a vapor lock issue on my Mastercraft back when it was kind of a rare problem & not well known yet. I called Indmar on it & was told that the ECUs don't make adjustments. There is one program installed & the settings are fixed. They can be modified, but it's done by a technician, not by varying conditions.

[jbower]

56 minutes ago, Bill_AirJunky said:

I understand your thought process on this, but like I said, I think your giving the ECU too much credit. A phone call to Indmar or Skidim might be very informative for you.

I had a vapor lock issue on my Mastercraft back when it was kind of a rare problem & not well known yet. I called Indmar on it & was told that the ECUs don't make adjustments. There is one program installed & the settings are fixed. They can be modified, but it's done by a technician, not by varying conditions.

Absolutely correct bill. They are set on a base map and just monitor. You get into a new one with cats and 02 sensors "lambda" it's a different story

[95echelon]

I have to say that my echelon did this whenever I brought it out of the winter. Usually any start after sitting under 45 degrees ambient and I would get similar symptoms. It wont make you feel any better but that boat ran me for 16 seasons with the issue and no long term health effects. I chalked it up to being cold blooded on that single fuel map.

[jfw432]

2 hours ago, electricjohn said:

The ECU does not have a learning mode.  The only thing it does at key-up is look at barometric pressure via the MAP sensor and engine temperature via the coolant temp sensor.  Do you know how to test the coolant sensor?

You don't get the condensation causing temperature swings in summer like you do this time of year.

I do not know how to test the coolant sensor. I'd be happy to check it though if you tell me how. I didn't see a procedure with a quick search on here. 

 

We actually get all of our condensation in GA during the summer time and not the winter. I don't know about inside the fuel tank but inside the boat stays dry as a bone in the winter and always damp and nasty in the summer. Though after putting a one way valve in the rear drain plug, most of the condensation in the engine bay has disappeared even in the summer. 

[electricjohn]

1 hour ago, jfw432 said:

I do not know how to test the coolant sensor. I'd be happy to check it though if you tell me how. I didn't see a procedure with a quick search on here. 

 

 

You test it with a ohm meter.  At room temperature you should measure 3500 ohms across the 2 pins.  At engine temp (160*) you should measure 500 ohms.  If the temp is really cold, like freezing, reading will be as high as 7500 ohms.  Do not unplug sensor while engine is running.  The sensor has a yellow and black wire plugged into it on the front of the intake manifold.

[jfw432]

This is going to sound really stupid but how the heck do you turn this engine to do a leak down check? Do you really have to disassemble the whole raw water pump just to get a wrench on the crankshaft? I definitely don't have enough nuts to turn the engine by holding the harmonic balancer by hand.

[Cap305]

16 hours ago, Bill_AirJunky said:

I understand your thought process on this, but like I said, I think your giving the ECU too much credit. A phone call to Indmar or Skidim might be very informative for you.

I had a vapor lock issue on my Mastercraft back when it was kind of a rare problem & not well known yet. I called Indmar on it & was told that the ECUs don't make adjustments. There is one program installed & the settings are fixed. They can be modified, but it's done by a technician, not by varying conditions.

Thanks for the insight Bill.  Hopefully the (new) local Malibu dealer will be able to better diagnose my particular issue once I get off my bee-hind and get it in there.  If not I'll definitely call Indmar and see what they can offer.  The problem has been bizarre and nagging.  

[Sixball]

16 hours ago, jfw432 said:

This is going to sound really stupid but how the heck do you turn this engine to do a leak down check? Do you really have to disassemble the whole raw water pump just to get a wrench on the crankshaft? I definitely don't have enough nuts to turn the engine by holding the harmonic balancer by hand.

Off the bolt holding the damper to the crank. Socket and barker bar.  So when you are doing the leak down take time to put an ear to the throttle body, open the oil cap on the valve covers listen, and also at the exhaust pips. If the reading is low you will want to understand why.  One of the thing I am thinking a ring with carbon build up or sticking. If so you will hear air from the oil caps on the valve covers. Just one possibility.

[jfw432]

37 minutes ago, Sixball said:

Off the bolt holding the damper to the crank. Socket and barker bar.  

So one of the 3 little 5/16" Allen head bolts? I tried that initially and got a bit scared to continue using that when one of the bolts slipped 1/4 turn when I started torquing it. My internal torque wrench thinks those bolts will strip....

[oldjeep]

17 hours ago, jfw432 said:

This is going to sound really stupid but how the heck do you turn this engine to do a leak down check? Do you really have to disassemble the whole raw water pump just to get a wrench on the crankshaft? I definitely don't have enough nuts to turn the engine by holding the harmonic balancer by hand.

Assuming you have a crank mounted raw water pump, just use a socket/hex and breaker bar on one of the 3 bolts holding it to the crank

1 minute ago, jfw432 said:

So one of the 3 little 5/16" Allen head bolts? I tried that initially and got a bit scared to continue using that when one of the bolts slipped 1/4 turn when I started torquing it. My internal torque wrench thinks those bolts will strip....

Shouldn't strip, I can turn a V8 with my bare hands by just using the crank pulley.  But if you are nervous about it and can't turn it by hand then just remove the raw water pump and use the balancer bolt.

[jbower]

dont forget to pull the plugs. It may make it a little easier