Which gas option is better?

[mikewoods]

Sounds like Oldjeep is a corn farmer.

[oldjeep]

Sounds like Oldjeep is a corn farmer.

Nope, just live in a state where we have had e10 for 25+ years and I have never seen any of these problems that folks are talking about - my cylinder index is pretty high too;)

[DocPhil]

doc, by volume ethanol has less potential energy (expressed in BTUs -- british thermal units) than gasoline. The potential energy per gallon is sometimes confused with octane. Octane is the resistance of the fuel to preignition (knock). Ethanol raises octane, but dilutes the potential energy. So higher octane (won't knock as easy) but less potential energy per gallon, so you need more gallons to do the same work.

diesel has really low octane but more btus per gallon than gas.

go try the google machine if'n you don't believe. If it's on the internet it must be true! Even the government says so http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fuel_comparison_chart.pdf

so the reason you get less MPG with ethanol is that there's less energy in the fuel. If you could get the SAME work with LESS energy you would be solving the world's energy needs.

And of course this doesn't take into account the fuels necessary to plant corn, harvest corn, turn corn to ethanol, then mix said ethanol with your dead dinos.

I don't doubt that. That is science that can be proven.

However, I doubt the harm to the engine. There is absolutely no proof of that. Or at least proof that I have been shown other than some engine guys that "swear ethanol screws up yarrr motor"

[MLA]

The political economic stuff is a whole other discussion. I just take issue with the nonsense that you see about e10 messing up your engine, kicking your dog and knocking up your wife.

ethanol does not directly "mess up yur engine". The issue is the side effects from ethanol. Those side effects are on aluminum fuel tank, which are coincidentally not used any more, deteriorating rubber fuel lines from the inside, resulting in a fuel leak and/or clogged fuel jets/fuel injectors. Anything else rubber or plastic that comes in contact with the ethanol blended fuel that was not made specifically for use in ethanol blended applications, will also deteriorate. This means most any boat older then 2000.

You say its nonsense cause you aint seen? then where is your's and Doc's documentaion that none of what is said, is not true? By all means, prove me wrong, i invite the attempt.

[oldjeep]

Somehow my 86 bayliner came with ethanol safe fuel lines. Have a hard time believing that 2000 boats would be having issues, but who knows maybe some mfg were using cheaper parts than Bayliner;)

[MLA]

I don't doubt that. That is science that can be proven.

However, I doubt the harm to the engine. There is absolutely no proof of that.

LOL, you are arguing a point that wasnt even made.

[oldjeep]

Other common issues other than non ethanol safe lines are clogged fuel filters due to ethanol cleaning all the crap out of your fuel system in the first couple tanks.

Never heard of the aluminum thing, my 46 CJ had an aluminum fuel cell in it for 8 years or so.

[MLA]

Somehow my 86 bayliner came with ethanol safe fuel lines. Have a hard time believing that 2000 boats would be having issues, but who knows maybe some mfg were using cheaper parts than Bayliner;)

so bayliner was building boats to withstand a myth?

[oldjeep]

so bayliner was building boats to withstand a myth?

Ethanol melting some old fuel lines isn't a myth. The myth is that this has anything to do with modern engines. It's a wonder that anything runs up here apparently.

[MLA]

Ethanol melting some old fuel lines isn't a myth. The myth is that this has anything to do with modern engines. It's a wonder that anything runs up here apparently.

Thats part of my point, to which doc is not buying. As to modern engines and fuel systems, ethanol still attracts more moisture then pure gas, still has less BTU's and can still have phase separation. But, if you think about it, this forum is not made up of boaters with 2015 and newer boat, or even 2000 and newer boats, so the general info shared here is relevant to many owners. If ethanol was NOT harmful to marine systems, then why do we stickers from Indmar and PCM and others, by the gas fills of new boats stating not to use anything greater then E-10? If E-10 os so good, E-15 must be better.

[Sixball]

30 years in the field of testing. I do not have data but yes the E fuel is not beneficial to fuel economy. I know in the auto industry E-10 is safe and have no issues. Gaskets, fuel line fuel pumps everything has been addressed to have no problems with E-10 E-15 can start to show issues with other motorized vehicles and equipment.

It takes a lot of ethanol to make H.P. but it will. As said the BTU is low so running ethanol makes a cooler running engine. Old vehicles and equipment do see issues.

In the end E-fuel is a political thing as not much benefit. It takes more energy to male the ethanol from corn then it gives back! It also take something like seven gallons of water to make one gallon of ethanol unless the proses has changed in the last four or five years. Stop the subsidies and you would not see E-fuel.

E-fuel from sugar cane can be done on the good side. So if we can start growing sugar cane in the corn fields you may have something.

[DocPhil]

LOL, you are arguing a point that wasnt even made.

You said ethanol is corrosive and damages the fuel system.

Sorry should have been more specific

However seems the consensus is that ethanol is irrelevant to modern engines/fuel systems aside from providing less mileage

Case closed.

Book it SD

Edited August 5, 2015 by DocPhil

[85 Barefoot]

You said ethanol is corrosive and damages the fuel system.

Sorry should have been more specific

However seems the consensus is that ethanol is irrelevant to modern engines/fuel systems aside from providing less mileage

Case closed.

Book it SD

Big difference between saying ethanol is irrelevant to modern engines and saying E10 is irrelevant, which is exactly why Indmar says no more than E10. Don't believe me? Try running E85 in a vehicle not so designed.

[85 Barefoot]

ethanol does not directly "mess up yur engine". The issue is the side effects from ethanol. Those side effects are on aluminum fuel tank, which are coincidentally not used any more, deteriorating rubber fuel lines from the inside, resulting in a fuel leak and/or clogged fuel jets/fuel injectors. Anything else rubber or plastic that comes in contact with the ethanol blended fuel that was not made specifically for use in ethanol blended applications, will also deteriorate. This means most any boat older then 2000.

You say its nonsense cause you aint seen? then where is your's and Doc's documentaion that none of what is said, is not true? By all means, prove me wrong, i invite the attempt.

exactly. That ethanol is hygroscopic and the problems that can create for not quickly burned fuel tanks cannot be overstated.

[oldjeep]

Big difference between saying ethanol is irrelevant to modern engines and saying E10 is irrelevant, which is exactly why Indmar says no more than E10. Don't believe me? Try running E85 in a vehicle not so designed.

The e85 issue is mostly that the fuel system and fuel maps don't support delivering the volume required to run e85. Friend of mine runs e85 in his 502 powered chevelle drag car and you have to switch you some huge jets on the carb.

[oldjeep]

exactly. That ethanol is hygroscopic and the problems that can create for not quickly burned fuel tanks cannot be overstated.

Only if you are introducing water to your fuel. Most of the water in fuel issues seem to come from buying your fuel with water in it.

[85 Barefoot]

The e85 issue is mostly that the fuel system and fuel maps don't support delivering the volume required to run e85. Friend of mine runs e85 in his 502 powered chevelle drag car and you have to switch you some huge jets on the carb.

I'm not saying that alcohol (ethanol) cna't provide great power, in fact, its very powerful. But the issue is running ethanol blended fuels in fuel systems that weren't designed for it, and fuels that have more ethanol than an engine was designed for. A drag car with very high compression and can thus benefit from extraordinary octane ain't the subject matter here. And furthermore, why is more "volume" required? Because it has less BTU per charge. which is exactly why running an E85 vehicle can in fact cost MORE money to operate even though its cheaper.

Doc, it really is well-known that the more ethanol in a fuel, in a common car or engine, mileage goes down, which is a result of less power per fuel charge.

Edited August 5, 2015 by 85 Barefoot

[85 Barefoot]

Only if you are introducing water to your fuel. Most of the water in fuel issues seem to come from buying your fuel with water in it.

Sorry, but that is absolutely not the case, especially in a humid environment. Ethanol is hygroscopic. There is no debate about it. Just like brake fluid. which is why german manufacturers recommend frequent brake fluid changes. Does anyone inject water into brake systems? No, it just develops. Why? Because hygroscopic fluids absorb it, even out of the air. Water does nothing any good, in fuel systems especially.

Edited August 5, 2015 by 85 Barefoot

[oldjeep]

Sorry, but that is absolutely not the case, especially in a humid environment. Ethanol is hygroscopic. There is no debate about it. Just like brake fluid. which is why german manufacturers recommend frequent brake fluid changes. Water does nothing any good, in fuel systems esepcially.

I'll have to try to dig up the math that someone did on how much a standard fuel tank would have to be "breathing" in order to being in a measurable amount of water from the air. It's not like we have 50 gallons of gas sitting in a shallow pan exposed to an easy exchange of moisture laden air that drops its water and then is replaced with more moisture laden air.

Now buying fuel from stations that allow rainwater to flow into their tanks, that causes issues.

Edited August 5, 2015 by oldjeep

[85 Barefoot]

I'll have to try to dig up the math that someone did on how much a standard fuel tank would have to be "breathing" in order to being in a measurable amount of water from the air. It's not like we have 50 gallons of gas sitting in a shallow pan exposed to an easy exchange of moisture laden air that drops its water and then is replaced with more moisture laden air.

Now buying fuel from stations that allow rainwater to flow into their tanks, that causes issues.

Old, while you're at it, look up the reasons and issues caused by metal tanks in boats which caused sweat on the inside thus putting a lot of water in the fuel system. That's why you'd always store boats with full tanks to lessen the exposed interior metal that each day...drip drip drip in the gas.

[mlange]

See http://www.boattest.com/Resources/view_news.aspx?NewsID=3345

[DocPhil]

I'm not saying that alcohol (ethanol) cna't provide great power, in fact, its very powerful. But the issue is running ethanol blended fuels in fuel systems that weren't designed for it, and fuels that have more ethanol than an engine was designed for. A drag car with very high compression and can thus benefit from extraordinary octane ain't the subject matter here. And furthermore, why is more "volume" required? Because it has less BTU per charge. which is exactly why running an E85 vehicle can in fact cost MORE money to operate even though its cheaper.

Doc, it really is well-known that the more ethanol in a fuel, in a common car or engine, mileage goes down, which is a result of less power per fuel charge.

I never argued that point. In fact that is one of the few claims that has scientific proof.

What I am asking for is evidence that standard e10 fuel is harmful to modern engines or fuel systems.

Bottom line is that evidence doesn't exist

[MLA]

I never argued that point. In fact that is one of the few claims that has scientific proof.

What I am asking for is evidence that standard e10 fuel is harmful to modern engines or fuel systems.

Bottom line is that evidence doesn't exist

When water passes through a fuel system, it displaces fuel. This creates a lean condition. This lean condition can be cylinder to cylinder or engine wide. Lean conditions lead to higher cylinder temps or overall higher engine temps. This leads to excessive ware, burned exhaust valves, pre ignition which causes burned pistons.

So as noted, ethanol does not directly harm the engine, but even an modern engine can be damaged by the side effects. Science may not prove it to your liking, but the people that work on these engines on a daily basis and the boat owners that have to pay for it, see it all too often.

[dlb]

E10 has about 3% less energy than straight gas. That is less than a 0.5 MPG on a truck that gets 15 MPG for around town driving. When towing you will never find the difference.

Give me an E85 hybrid truck and we can kiss the Middle East good bye on our way to enjoy our day of boating.

[Sixball]

Don't forget fuel tanks in todays vehicles don't vent straight to atmosphere. E-10 is not a problem in todays cars and trucks. E-15 and above has show issues in boats, snowmobiles, and small engines.

I have yet to have any issues with water from condensation even in fuel stored at my cabin for six months. I do add Stabil if I am not using it in two or three months.

Just never had any problems other the small engines, Lawn , chain saws, and such. Those all had problems wit fuel line or carb. All repairable.

I don't know but bet the newer marine fuel systems all have been updated to deal with up to E-10.