New Surf/Boat Tech - Autowake/Waketouch

[WABoating]

Just a couple things that popped in my head since I am not that computer literate is:

1) Is this something that will require getting a new tablet every couple years since updated software versions will not be supported by the old versions (similar to phones I guess is what I am thinking)

2) Why android and not apple so you can play your Itunes thru it if you had them on the tablet

3) Is it a specific tablet for just this or is it one that you could use around your house for everyday use then plug into the boat when needed?

1) No, because the tablet is mounted into the dash from the factory (in place of the screens they use today). You don't have to update the software in your car every couple of years... this is the same basic thing. (But if you DID need to update, it could be done via the WiFi interface in the tablet.)

2) The website specifically discusses why we recommend Android. It COULD be done on Apple, but read the website... http://waketouch.com/technical.html, scroll down to the section entitled "Can WakeTouch and AutoWake work with Apple iPads?" Keep in mind that if this is purchased by a helm electronics company, they could choose to implement these features on their in-house hardware and screens instead of using tablets. The concepts do not require a tablet, it's just the better way to do it.

3) In an OEM from-the-factory install, the tablet is mounted in the dash and would not be (easily) removable. In a retrofit, you could use a dashmount bracket and remove the tablet as desired.

[flapjack]

For you guys jazzed about the system... when do you not surf your boat maximum ballast? Is there a better setting than "barely floating."

I'll admit I've let water out of the back because I didn't have enough bow ballast, but I quickly fixed the issue by adding more ballast.

[WABoating]

For you guys jazzed about the system... when do you not surf your boat maximum ballast? Is there a better setting than "barely floating."

I'll admit I've let water out of the back because I didn't have enough bow ballast, but I quickly fixed the issue by adding more ballast.

Even with "max ballast", you still want the wave/wake to be clean. Small changes in hull orientation make a big difference. So even maxed out, there's a need to keep the hull where it belongs.

[WABoating]

Definitely not a cure-all but after watching both videos I am seriously impressed with a few of the features. The open architecture is a huge plus.

Funny... one of the things we considered doing was releasing it ourselves as an open platform. That way, anyone with some coding skills could write plug-ins. Think of something new? Write and test it yourself on your boat! That could create a whole new "community" in the wakeboat world, with people sharing plugins and exchanging ideas.

[martinarcher]

Now I think you're onto something with an open source community. It could really turn into the "Arduino" community of the boating world. I've wanted to put a couple inclinometers on our boat for a while and accomplish a similar goal. I take a handheld one with us when we are experimenting with ballast and setting up new things on the boat (gates, wedge, etc) which helps me reproduce the set-up later.

I think if the hardware was a reasonable cost you would attract engineers that are into water sports. I'm and automation engineer and software developer and would certainly be a contributor in that case. I'm just worried the amount of sensors you need to add to a "semi automated" ballast system would get big in a hurry. You would need a flow sensor on every bag. The other challenge I've been thinking of would be knowing how much water is in the bag after cycling power to the system. A hard tank is easier with a Gems float sensor but a ballast bag is tougher. If the flow meter is measuring the water in and out of the bag you have a pretty good idea of what's in it and could calibrate how much water each of your bags could hold. After a calibration you almost need to store the current volume of water in the bag in NV storage. If not, you'd have to "zero" the system on a reboot which is no good. The other idea I had would be to use a CT and monitor the current draw of the pump for a full/empty condition which would certainly simplify logic. I just know from experience that an unvented bag fed by an impeller pump is VERY strong and bad news for the boat if overfilled in a compartment. I've blown the latch off our ski locker twice now.

Good to see others innovating! Looks like a good system and I like the modular/flexible architecture. That makes it very powerful and allows it to scale with the imagination/skill of the programmers working with it. As an open source platform I think you would see some amazing things giving people the tools to use their skills an creativity. Nothing gets batter results than someone putting their skills into something they are passionate about!

[bcoppess23]

martinarcher will have a retro of this version integrated into his current setup by summer, any takers?!

[WABoating]

The other idea I had would be to use a CT and monitor the current draw of the pump for a full/empty condition which would certainly simplify logic.

Excellent observation! And if you read the first patent (link available at waketouch.com), you won't be surprised to see all sorts of discussion and schematics on monitoring pump parameters including current. Knowing what the pumps are doing is very valuable for a whole bunch of reasons, not just AutoWake.

We don't like adding a bunch of sensors to the boat. It costs money and makes things less reliable. With respect to flow sensors, you'll note that we even eliminate them in WakeTouch for measuring and displaying fuel consumption. If you can get there with circuitry, intelligence, or both you're much better off.

[WABoating]

Good to see others innovating! Looks like a good system and I like the modular/flexible architecture. That makes it very powerful and allows it to scale with the imagination/skill of the programmers working with it. As an open source platform I think you would see some amazing things giving people the tools to use their skills an creativity. Nothing gets batter results than someone putting their skills into something they are passionate about!

Totally agree. But we don't think boat manufacturers are likely to OEM an open platform from the factory. So selling the whole package is our preferred approach.

[Chia]

martinarcher

what is this inclinometer of which you speak??

[WABoating]

I've wanted to put a couple inclinometers on our boat for a while and accomplish a similar goal. I take a handheld one with us when we are experimenting with ballast and setting up new things on the boat (gates, wedge, etc) which helps me reproduce the set-up later.

We call that "A human closing the loop". Basically the same as the old-fashioned dash switches. In fact, today's touchscreen systems are mostly just glitzy versions of dash switches. YOU still have to figure out what is wrong back there and fiddle around to correct it.

As I answered on another forum: People going to boat shows should be asking the boat manufacturers "How does your system adjust for day-to-day differences?" As long as they're measuring the wrong things (like ballast weight or pump timing), they can't correct what they aren't measuring.

With a solution now available, I wouldn't rush to buy a new boat right now....

Edited February 20, 2015 by WABoating

[martinarcher]

martinarcher will have a retro of this version integrated into his current setup by summer, any takers?!

The Wake Logic controller is a lot more tight scoped than what these guys are working on. If I would ever do a ballast controller I would have to start with a new board as the one I'm using is pretty slammed with I/O. My buddy warned me to leave enough I/O to do ballast automation but I was trying to keep the scope creep under control....easier said than done.

Excellent observation! And if you read the first patent (link available at waketouch.com), you won't be surprised to see all sorts of discussion and schematics on monitoring pump parameters including current. Knowing what the pumps are doing is very valuable for a whole bunch of reasons, not just AutoWake.

We don't like adding a bunch of sensors to the boat. It costs money and makes things less reliable. With respect to flow sensors, you'll note that we even eliminate them in WakeTouch for measuring and displaying fuel consumption. If you can get there with circuitry, intelligence, or both you're much better off.

That's good. That certainly makes an install/retrofit a lot easier since you can use power wiring to pumps as both power and sensor information about the pump which saves money, time, and installation headache.

Totally agree. But we don't think boat manufacturers are likely to OEM an open platform from the factory. So selling the whole package is our preferred approach.

I saw you were hoping for a manufacturer to jump on your product but I also saw your pick and place set-up and board assembly. Any thoughts of selling the controller and opening up the software development to an open source community? I think that would be a home run for the wake sports community as a whole. I wish you luck either way but would love to play with your controller. I've got some ideas that I know no one has thought seen for controlling a boat wake.

martinarcher

what is this inclinometer of which you speak??

That's a fancy term for a sensor that will measure the angle of an object it is mounted to. All the tablets/phones use MEMs based accelerators to compute angle. They are OK for some applications but suffer a lot of disadvantages to some other sensors. That's why you'll sometimes have to shake your phone or persuade it to re-orient the screen from one orientation to the other. The good thing is they are cheap and readily available. Other sensors that are fluid filled or sensors that use an INS (inertial navigation system) to track angle are usually far superior. Fluid filled sensors suffer from noise (induced by acceleration and deceleration of the sensor) but are very accurate. The INS sensors can suffer from drift but that's over an extremely long time. The disadvantages of INS units is their size and extreme cost. That's why they are typically seen in military and industrial applications.

[WABoating]

>>Any thoughts of selling the controller and opening up the software development to an open source community? I think that would be a home run for the wake sports community as a whole. I wish you luck either way but would love to play with your controller.<<

That's why I mentioned open source. We've considered all sorts of options. Time will tell! There is a LOT of flexibility built into that board already, so it's ripe for experimentation and development. And if you read the website, you'll know that you can set up a complete development environment with in-circuit debugging for $50, with real-time debug on-board a running boat while someone is literally boarding or surfing behind you. None of that was an accident. We think it's a pretty sweet setup.

>>Other sensors that are fluid filled or sensors that use an INS (inertial navigation system) to track angle are usually far superior.<<

However, good software (i.e. proper filtering implemented in code) can ameliorate problems with any of these sensor types.

Edited February 21, 2015 by WABoating

[Chia]

The Wake Logic controller is a lot more tight scoped than what these guys are working on. If I would ever do a ballast controller I would have to start with a new board as the one I'm using is pretty slammed with I/O. My buddy warned me to leave enough I/O to do ballast automation but I was trying to keep the scope creep under control....easier said than done.

That's good. That certainly makes an install/retrofit a lot easier since you can use power wiring to pumps as both power and sensor information about the pump which saves money, time, and installation headache.

I saw you were hoping for a manufacturer to jump on your product but I also saw your pick and place set-up and board assembly. Any thoughts of selling the controller and opening up the software development to an open source community? I think that would be a home run for the wake sports community as a whole. I wish you luck either way but would love to play with your controller. I've got some ideas that I know no one has thought seen for controlling a boat wake.

Well MA, if you decide to get into this, let me know where how to invest.

[WABoating]

Since our announcement, we've been getting a lot of behind-the-scenes questions about draft sensors. Bottom line: Boat manufacturers think marine industrial draft sensors cost too much. So just like we solved the over-expensive helm instrumentation problem, we have developed a robust and economical wakeboat draft sensor and we thought folks here might appreciate seeing it. (Note: We're cross-posting this to a few places.)

Our sensor design consists of a section of one inch PVC pipe with a male threaded fitting on its bottom end and a cap with a small hole on its top end. The pipe screws into a standard thruhull+ball valve just like a ballast pump, and stands roughly vertically in the hull (it does not have to be perfectly vertical). This allows water to fill the pipe from the bottom, seeking a common level with the water surrounding the hull.

On either side of the pipe on the left you can see two strips of metal foil. The tops of the foils connect to a small, waterproof module attached to the top of the pipe. Those of you familiar with electronic components will recognize that the foils act as two plates of a capacitor. The module at the top measures that capacitance and reports it as an analog voltage on one of the three wires at the top (the other two power the module).

The capacitance between those two foils changes as the material between them – known as the dielectric – changes. We use the water rising up and down within the pipe to cause a huge change in the capacitance, which we can then measure and report.

When the tube is completely empty (hull out of water), the output voltage is 1.0VDC. When the tube is completely full (hull deep in water), the output voltage is 5.0VDC. And as the water levels varies up and down, so does the output – a nice voltage indication of hull draft!

Our draft sensor is essentially bombproof. It has no moving parts and requires zero maintenance. Nothing electrical touches the water. It can be built to virtually any height (the one in the photo is 24 inches tall) so it is compatible with hulls of any draft and freeboard. It is rugged; the production version is covered in heat shrink (as seen in the right photo). The components are off-the-shelf and available today in production quantities. Best of all, cost to build is under $40 and it can be assembled by traditional employees in a boat factory.

Can you tell we enjoy solving problems with technology?

Edited March 19, 2015 by WABoating

[Bill_AirJunky]

martinarcher

what is this inclinometer of which you speak??

Something that Toyota has been putting in their 4x4s since back in the analog days.

It can be done in any basic smart phone now.

[WABoating]

Added photo of production version with the heavy protective heat shrink.