What engine would you put in your boat?

[sgt1970-442]

john,

just as martinarcher mentioned. more cubic inch, longer rod and stroke equal more torque, more usable horsepower down lower in the rpm range.

most of us only run up to about 36mph when running through the course, most of the other times are 25-30mph running across the lake to get from a to b.

you'll notice the lower useable torque when pulling a couple slalom skiers. also as mentioned the 383 set up is a stroker kit, crank, rods, pistons, rings, & rod and main bearings. it requires a bore job and yes clearencing the block for rod swing. besides everyone builds a 383 which is a .030 over piston and we might just make it a little more unique and build a 385 which is .040 pistons and you hardly ever hear anyone speak of a 385...lol

Edited October 31, 2013 by sgt1970-442

[sgt1970-442]

john call me tomorrow,

just a few more engine details for a blue printed engine verses just a rebuild. lets work with the cam and lobe separation on both the intake and exhaust. huge difference when choosing a cam for lower end power and torque from about 1500-4000rpms and where you degree it in. we as inboard boaters want the torque from idle to 3500rpm and as flat a torque curve as possible. anything after 3500rpm is nothing but horsepower. we still have a long way to go with rocker arm geometry, timing chain set up, oil pump blue printing and we are still just scratching the surface. cylinder head porting and intake are a big factor in where we can go with this build. remember john, we are not build a race motor that has a rough idle,,,,, just a great down low torque monster with great throttle response and moderate hp.

[Bozboat]

john call me tomorrow,

just a few more engine details for a blue printed engine verses just a rebuild. lets work with the cam and lobe separation on both the intake and exhaust. huge difference when choosing a cam for lower end power and torque from about 1500-4000rpms and where you degree it in. we as inboard boaters want the torque from idle to 3500rpm and as flat a torque curve as possible. anything after 3500rpm is nothing but horsepower. we still have a long way to go with rocker arm geometry, timing chain set up, oil pump blue printing and we are still just scratching the surface. cylinder head porting and intake are a big factor in where we can go with this build. remember john, we are not build a race motor that has a rough idle,,,,, just a great down low torque monster with great throttle response and moderate hp.

If you guys do this, please post photos along the way, this could be another epic thread

[WakeGirl]

Wicked awesome guys.

[Michigan boarder]

john call me tomorrow,

just a few more engine details for a blue printed engine verses just a rebuild. lets work with the cam and lobe separation on both the intake and exhaust. huge difference when choosing a cam for lower end power and torque from about 1500-4000rpms and where you degree it in. we as inboard boaters want the torque from idle to 3500rpm and as flat a torque curve as possible. anything after 3500rpm is nothing but horsepower. we still have a long way to go with rocker arm geometry, timing chain set up, oil pump blue printing and we are still just scratching the surface. cylinder head porting and intake are a big factor in where we can go with this build. remember john, we are not build a race motor that has a rough idle,,,,, just a great down low torque monster with great throttle response and moderate hp.

Right on, Steve. I'll call you on my way to the lake, dropping off the hot tub this morning to free up my trailer/engine hauler.

If you guys do this, please post photos along the way, this could be another epic thread

Definitely. I was going to start a separate thread when we started the build, but I think we'll just keep this one rolling.

Wicked awesome guys.

I'm really excited to dig into it. I'll have one of the older boats on the lake, but it will definitely be stronger than my buddy's $60k X2 and my other buddy's $30k Nautique.

[Baddog]

Right on, Steve. I'll call you on my way to the lake, dropping off the hot tub this morning to free up my trailer/engine hauler.

Definitely. I was going to start a separate thread when we started the build, but I think we'll just keep this one rolling.

I'm really excited to dig into it. I'll have one of the older boats on the lake, but it will definitely be stronger than my buddy's $60k X2 and my other buddy's $30k Nautique.

Contrary to what a lot of women think, bragging rights DO matter.

[JB-FOOT]

If you guys do this, please post photos along the way, this could be another epic thread

MOVE OVER LEVI, here he comes !!!

[JB-FOOT]

Contrary to what a lot of women think, bragging rights DO matter.

and so does SIZE.....of the motor that is......

[Woodski]

@MB: looks like you have some great guidance in Steve. It is ideal to have engine expertise coupled with an understanding of the duty cycle you will use, a perfect combination to end up with excellent results. He certainly appears to have the understanding of all the details to watch for as you move along the process. You should end up with a great combination.

[sgt1970-442]

@MB: looks like you have some great guidance in Steve. It is ideal to have engine expertise coupled with an understanding of the duty cycle you will use, a perfect combination to end up with excellent results. He certainly appears to have the understanding of all the details to watch for as you move along the process. You should end up with a great combination.

thank you woodski.

once I see what john's goals and budget are, we will come up with a plan. wish we could find another set of etx pre cat manifolds like I did.

[Michigan boarder]

The trailer is empty, and this week I'll reassemble most of what I have, build a crate and put it on the trailer. I'll get it over to Steve's place in a couple of weeks when he's ready and then we can figure out what's good and what's not, and get a plan put together.

Meanwhile, I've been tooling around the net for ETX manifolds. Are these from Bakes the ones that I need? I can get these with our discount shipped to me for $950. As I'm looking around I'd at least like to know what the most I'll pay is, then work downwards from there. http://www.bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=2394

[sgt1970-442]

those are what you are looking for john

[sgt1970-442]

ok so john and I have talked and once I finish 4 concrete jobs( yes I have my own concrete business but love engine work) I have going(about a week and a half depending on weather) he will be bringing the motor down and we will get started checking what can be reused. with what john has for a budget I've been looking at the scat stroker kit with 6" rods and .040 over pistons for a 385cid. I've used the scat kits before and they are good quality pieces. next step is a set of heads, either the edelbrock e-tec 170cc intake runner vortec aluminum heads or gmpp 180cc intake runner vortec aluminum heads are what i'm leaning towards first. we could go cheaper with a set of cast iron vortecs if he's not worried about weight. comp cams has quite a few choices to work with but they do custom grinds for the same price so we will see where all the components lead us to on the cam specs. a set of roller rockers and good double roller chain along with an edelbrock rpm intake and we should see 400hp(moderately speaking) and 425-450torque numbers. I see making a call to acme for some prop advise in john's future.....

[JB-FOOT]

If you get those kind of numbers and ooomph out of his motor, most likely what I am running in my big block echelon will be perfect for him...

which is an ACME 1257 13x14 .0135 cup 3 blade 1 1/8" LH prop.....butter smooth and great wakes for slalom and barefoot...

[Woodski]

Yes, he will need a different prop for sure. Another option, close to what JB suggests would be a 515 with more cup. It does work well with that level of HP. Sounds correct on the power / torque numbers for that combo, although he will need to open up the exhaust a bit downstream to make it all work.

Note: make sure the EXT manifolds have enough drop in them with the cam you end up choosing, you don't want to suck any water back up through the exhaust ports... rods and pistons don't like that! I would think a ZZ4 or the marine cam w/ 1.6 rockers would be a good option. Good idle and low speed performance and plenty on the top end. Comp cams will grind what you want, they are good guys.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Woodski

[Michigan boarder]

I was hoping to have that engine pulled, but work has been crazy. I'm thinking Saturday is the day.

[JB-FOOT]

Yes, he will need a different prop for sure. Another option, close to what JB suggests would be a 515 with more cup. It does work well with that level of HP. Sounds correct on the power / torque numbers for that combo, although he will need to open up the exhaust a bit downstream to make it all work.

Note: make sure the EXT manifolds have enough drop in them with the cam you end up choosing, you don't want to suck any water back up through the exhaust ports... rods and pistons don't like that! I would think a ZZ4 or the marine cam w/ 1.6 rockers would be a good option. Good idle and low speed performance and plenty on the top end. Comp cams will grind what you want, they are good guys.

Woodski

A 515 is a 13x12 .080 cup 3 blade, that At least on my boat,....would spin off of the shaft!

a 13x13 3 blade is way too little prop and redlines almost immediately, so I would guess the 515 13x12 3 blade, being even lower pitch would redline for me at about 35-40 mph

My boat can actually turn a 13x15 3 blade....so maybe it is the Big Block vs. the Small Block difference....

One thing is for sure, MB will have to dial in a NEW prop once he redoes his motor....

[JB-FOOT]

I actually looked back at the thread where I posted the results of the Acme 1257 on my Echelon...

http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/index.php?/topic/36371-propeller-questionreccomendation/?hl=%2Bacme+%2B1257#entry517749

#7

JB-FOOT

Posted April 01, 2012 - 07:14 PM

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Bretski175, We took the boat out and footed today….it was AWESOME and with the new prop, the boat ran 52mph with a full tank of gas and all 5 of us in the boat…..

Here are the specs for the new Prop/and Boat set-up

I put a new Acme #1257 3 blade 13x14x1 1/8 L with extra cup 0.135 and it is amazing…..
2800 rpm is about 35 mph
3650 rpm is 41 mph
4100 rpm is 46 mph
And WOT is 52mph @ 5050 (just at my rev limiter)
28 Gallons of fuel
Barefoot International Boom
BFI Fly High
Water Temp was 56.5 degrees
Air Temp was 59 degrees
We are at about 780 feet above sea level on the Monongahela River
Rope length is at 70+3+5 handle Total =78' (and at 41 mph I could still shorten it up another 1-1 1/2 feet....)

Boat is 1994 Echelon Closed Bow, with 454 MPF

Boat just turned 400 hours today...

So the OJ Cast 13x15 prop was quicker out of the hole and did have an awesome wake, but was slower overall and burned more fuel and ran higher rpm's to go the same speed...
the OJ is now my back-up!!!

[Michigan boarder]

Needing a new prop is a quality problem to have, I guess.

I just had my old one reworked last summer too. Sounds like it won't even be worth using as a spare.

Classifies here I come...exhaust manifolds and prop!

[JB-FOOT]

Needing a new prop is a quality problem to have, I guess.

I just had my old one reworked last summer too. Sounds like it won't even be worth using as a spare.

Classifies here I come...exhaust manifolds and prop!

When the time comes in the spring, I can send you some of my spares to try....at least you can get it somewhat dialed in...before you go searching to actually have to BUY one

[Baddog]

Sgt and Woodski, how do you guys know all this stuff about building motors? I am always impressed.

[Woodski]

@JB: the SBC is pretty happy spinning about 100:1 or just slightly under. A 13x13 will do that, the added cup keeps a high horse SBC from breaking free. The CNC Acme's are pretty grippy or hard to get to break free and act like a rubber band. If you add a fair amount of cup, which is what I did with mine, you end up with basically a higher pitch prop, hence my comments on adding pitch to a 515 so it acts more like a 13x14. Lower pitch gets a good shot out of the hole and the cup keeps it from over revs. With that prop I can pull right at 5500 rpm and 34/36 mph is right in a sweet spot for slalom.

PS: small blocks actually like to run at a bit more than idle..haha The BB reminds me a bit of the Audi diesels at LeMans, they go by at 200 mph and sound like they are just cruising down the freeway...

@Baddog: thanks, as they say down in Nascar country 'xperienc (real english translation - experience) Best way to learn is to get one's hands dirty and build your own. Racing your own stuff also drives one to learn how to build and maintain every system on a race car, or you would simply run out of money much sooner. Besides, it is a lot of fun to do, the results are very rewarding.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Woodski

[JB-FOOT]

@JB: the SBC is pretty happy spinning about 100:1 or just slightly under. A 13x13 will do that, the added cup keeps a high horse SBC from breaking free. The CNC Acme's are pretty grippy or hard to get to break free and act like a rubber band. If you add a fair amount of cup, which is what I did with mine, you end up with basically a higher pitch prop, hence my comments on adding pitch to a 515 so it acts more like a 13x14. Lower pitch gets a good shot out of the hole and the cup keeps it from over revs. With that prop I can pull right at 5500 rpm and 34/36 mph is right in a sweet spot for slalom.

Guess I missed the part about adding additional cup...that makes sense!!!

PS: small blocks actually like to run at a bit more than idle..haha The BB reminds me a bit of the Audi diesels at LeMans, they go by at 200 mph and sound like they are just cruising down the freeway...

Ha ha...I hear ya....whenever anyone drives for us in one of our big blocks, they always kill us before they look down at the speedo and say "HOLY CRAP....sorry dude,,,,,didin't think we were going that fast"....LOL

[sgt1970-442]

Sgt and Woodski, how do you guys know all this stuff about building motors? I am always impressed.

as woodski said, got to get your hands dirty. lots of trial and error when I was young.

over time you learn what works and what doesn't. you also need to set realistic goals with

what you are building. always loved hearing guys that have no idea say they have a 3/4

race cam.... the etx manifolds should work well as I've been looking at some of

the mild roller cams. we want good idle and great throttle response.

hydrau locking a motor is not an option and very costly. on a side note, my sunsetter has a 515 acme on it because all we do is ski, and it runs about 1-1 on rpm and mph.

[Oberon]

Are you guys planning doing the work in Ann Arbor? Need (want) an extra hand?