Surf Gate - My experience - not impressed.

[Bawshogg]

Here are some surf gate pics taken this weekend. IMO its a great product, but I'm a newbie to Malibu, but have had 2 other boats....

https://www.dropbox.com/home/Surf pics 7-13 and 7-14

Don't work.

[skurfer]

Whole gang will be up at Foster, including I. But I'm game. It's a treck to Newberg for me, but with some notice I can probably make it happen. What ever the majority decides is cool wit me, but 10 dudes in a VLX is A LOTA suasage. Don't think we need more sack if everyone shows up.

Are you going down Sunday night?

[Bawshogg]

I think we are planning on going Saturday afternoon. We have the group campsite reserved.

[Lance B. Johnson]

I'd be game. Thanks IXFE!

[IXFE]

Whole gang will be up at Foster, including I. But I'm game. It's a treck to Newberg for me, but with some notice I can probably make it happen. What ever the majority decides is cool wit me, but 10 dudes in a VLX is A LOTA suasage. Don't think we need more sack if everyone shows up.

I'm sure we won't have 10... inevitably it won't work for many. It would just be nice to meet folks on the water for once...

We can choose a different spot too. I'm just most comfortable at Newberg. Let me think on it a little... don't want to conflict with the Foster event.

BTW... my 13 year old daughter will likely tag along (she's staying home with me that week). But she's down for some surfing.

[IXFE]

Maybe I should have said it this way... first seats go to you Crew members. If some fall out, I'll go find local alternates. How's that?

[UpperleftWake]

IXFE, if there is room, i'd love to join and local to y'all! I could bring my GoPro, Canon 7D, and Phase 5 Danielo Pro Carbon .

Edited July 18, 2013 by MCObray

[IXFE]

IXFE, i'd love to join and local to y'all! I could bring my GoPro, Canon 7D, and Phase 5 Danielo Pro Carbon .

Okay, consider yourself invited!

[TrickyNicky]

FINALLY this thread is turning in the right direction. With the gang I just read about, it seems there will be some very valuable opinions after all this. Guess I should be booking a flight !

[85 Barefoot]

So, like 6 posts ago, when 85 Barefoot (a guy who is a very experienced boater) just said AGAIN that "the stock wave is great"....... You missed that as well? Gotcha.

Yep, I did. And also gave the appropriate hedge, again, that that's not to say its the best ever, and I have never said additional weight did not make it better. I simply made the point for RTS, who, thanks to this thread and many skilled wake artisans posting in it, was becoming skeptical of looking at a VTX because of people knocking surfgate's ability to create a quality factory wave, which is absurd.

I'm not saying my factory VTX was huge, I will say it had good shape, was plenty big, and perhaps most importantly of all, was easy to dial...in my book, that makes it "great"....As we have seen on here over and over, for beginning surfers, they don't even KNOW what a good wave should even look or feel like! For those reasons, out of the box user-friendliness (notwithstanding OP's experience to the contrary) makes SG the modern-day must have option. Remember when perfect pass became mainstream 14 years ago it was dubbed the "marriage saver"? Was there a TON of good drivers around back then who could hold a slalom skier with 600#s of force on the line within a tenth of a second off "ideal" in the slalom course? Yep. (For anyone who has never seen a driver in the 90s drive a world class slalom skier with 265 horsepower requiring huge throttle movement each pull, it is a thing of beauty). Did those skilled drivers scoff at a product that simplified driving for the masses and assail it as being inferior to a good hand driver? Yep. When zero off came out was it absolutely lambasted for the tenacity of its pull and cause dropping slalom scores (which it did)? Yep. Point is, both were substantial advances that just took some getting used to, and now, people wouldn't consider looking back. When was the last time anyone asked for a hand-drive? Years? The same will occur with surfgate. It's simply too easy to use and the people hating on it are people who have hundreds of hours invested in honing their eyes and ankles identifying the perfect shape and size for every hull. That's a skill, and many on here are amazing, and I personally applaud it. As WG has pointed out, the people here are more often than not very picky and very experienced, which is great, but when someone asks about whether a boat can produce a surfable wave with factory weight, while it may not be Mavericks, the answer is still "yes", no matter how quickly some on here can see a wave and make 3 adjustments and have it mackin'. That people with that sort of wake-dialing skill would prefer their finely-tuned waves to SG isn't really a surprise, but that also doesn't mean people who have NEVER surfed should be told a boat can't provide them a ridable, very quality wave right out of the box. IF those people decide, hey, I'd like some mroe size, I'd like less transition, they can do that. But that the "tweakers" on here would prefer their own dialed wave to a factory SG wave hardly means SG isn't all its cracked up to be.

I wish I could ride with that group!....yall keep in mind thats a diamond hull too....just before that debate starts

Edited July 18, 2013 by 85 Barefoot

[WakeGirl]

Good post 85, but I had to laugh out loud at that last comment.

[TrickyNicky]

Yep, I did. And also gave the appropriate hedge, again, that that's not to say its the best ever, and I have never said additional weight did not make it better. I simply made the point for RTS, who, thanks to this thread, was becoming skeptical of looking at a VTX because of people knocking surfgate's ability to create a factory wave, which is absurd.

I'm not saying my factory VTX was huge, I will say it had good shape, was plenty big, and perhaps most importantly of all, was easy to dial...in my book, that makes it "great"....As we have seen on here over and over, for beginning surfers, they don't even KNOW what a good wave should even look or feel like. For those reasons, out of the box user-friendliness (notwithstanding OP's experience to the contrary) makes SG the modern-day must have option. Remember when perfect pass became mainstream 14 years ago it was dubbed the "marriage saver"? Was there a TON of good drivers around back then who could hold a slalom skier with 600#s of force to a tenth of a second off "ideal" in the slalom course? Yep. (for anyone who has never seen a driver in the 90s drive a world class slalom skier with 265 horsepower requiring huge throttle movement each pull, it is a thing of beauty). Did those skilled drivers scoff at a product that simplified driving for the masses and assail it as being inferior to a good hand driver? Yep. When zero off came out was it absolutely lambasted for the tenacity of its pull and cause dropping slalom scores (which it did)? Yep. Point is, both were substantial advances that just took some getting used to, and now, people wouldn't consider looking back. When was the last time anyone asked for a hand-drive? Years? The same will occur with surfgate. It's simply too easy to use and the people hating on it are people who have hundreds of hours invested in honing their eyes and ankles identifying the perfect shape and size for every hull. That's a skill, and many on here are amazing. Notwithstanding that great slalom drivers could drive world records, perfect pass made it so much easier and more CONSISTENT. The same will continue to happen with surfgate and as WG has pointed out, the people here are more often than not, are very picky and very experienced, which si great, but when someone asks about whether a boat can produce a surfable wave with factory weight, while it may not be Mavericks, the answer is still "yes", no matter how quickly some on here can see a wave and make 3 adjustments and have it mackin'. That people with that sort of wake-dialing skill would prefer their finely-tuned waves to SG isn't really a surprise, but that alos doesn't mean people who have NEVER surfed should be told a boat can't provide them a ridable, very quality wave right out of the box.

I wish I could ride with that group!....yall keep in mind thats a diamond hull too....just before that debate starts

Just for curiosity, and hopefully no opening a can of worms. Does stock include PNP because that question comes into my head every time a new boat states "full stock ballast"

[85 Barefoot]

Just for curiosity, and hopefully no opening a can of worms. Does stock include PNP because that question comes into my head every time a new boat states "full stock ballast"

If you're asking about my former personal boat, I had no PNP sacks installed.

[TrickyNicky]

If you're asking about my former personal boat, I had no PNP sacks installed.

Thanks

[RTS]

I simply made the point for RTS, who, thanks to this thread and many skilled wake artisans posting in it, was becoming skeptical of looking at a VTX because of people knocking surfgate's ability to create a quality factory wave, which is absurd.

And I really appreciate the response. And it wasn't just this thread, there have been many others that gave me pause.

As we have seen on here over and over, for beginning surfers, they don't even KNOW what a good wave should even look or feel like! For those reasons, out of the box user-friendliness (notwithstanding OP's experience to the contrary) makes SG the modern-day must have option.

That is/was my fear. I have never seen a surf wake except pictures. Wouldn't know how to 'dial one in' if I had to. Don't have any friends that know, either.

that also doesn't mean people who have NEVER surfed should be told a boat can't provide them a ridable, very quality wave right out of the box. IF those people decide, hey, I'd like some mroe size, I'd like less transition, they can do that. But that the "tweakers" on here would prefer their own dialed wave to a factory SG wave hardly means SG isn't all its cracked up to be.

That's all I want/need right now. I an not now nor will ever be an expert surfer. Just want to have fun.

Thanks for your replies. Again, I appreciate them.

I may be going to the dealer today. If my crazy wife gets home from shopping in time. If not, I'll go tomorrow. I am sure I will soon be starting multiple threads. I have many questions that I would rather leave to the people here than rely on the dealer/salespeople for straight answers. It is a tad sooner than I wanted to get a new boat, just sold mine a couple months ago, but it has been a little boring this summer. And I'm wondering how I can do with the '14s coming out soon. I don't mind a 'leftover' 2013 model.

Edited July 18, 2013 by RTS

[SurfgateBob]

I found some clearer shots of the surfgate wave from this year's Norcal WOW. This is with stock ballast. I'll try to post some pics from this weekend when I load it up a bit and we can compare.

[nyryan2001]

You SHOULD be under that impression. I had one (a 13 VTX). I've also had 3 VLXs, a 247, axis A22, etc. so I ain't no spring chicken either. On the VTX run full ballast, wedge close to max and bone stock, you will have a very ridable (I will call it great) surf wave. The surf wave arguments here are like the wake arguments on ball of spray or wakeworld. 99% of people commenting on wakeboard wakes being bigger see absolutely no benefit to a bigger wake as they cna't even utilize a wake properly. Interestingly, I had a conversation with a wakesurf pro a couple weeks ago with an Fx-22 centurion and watched him ride...y'all wouldn't believe how LITTLE weight he runs (less than 95% of people on here, easily). In a comp that weekend he actually didn't win, and you know what he said? They put too much weight in the boat and messed up the wave and the entire pro division was offerred a re-ride! This is a pro we're talking about. Going overboard on weight and the perceived "need" for the biggest wake ever is silly from my own personal experience and my observation of a lot of people who are at the top of the field. Size of wakesurf waves have just turned into a measuring stick and have little to no bearing on fun or progression. If someone is happy throwing in 4000#s and having a huge wave, great for them. Does it mean someone like RTS won't be happy with a bone stock VTX wave, absolutely not. The thing right out of the box is easier to ride and have fun on than the vast majority of boats out there because they're not dialed in right.

I guess if I tried to talk about slalom after talking to a pro about it, this is what I would sound like.

This is the same Centurion argument that’s been spewed so much its industry hype... kinda like the Malibu SG "where are you at on your transitions?" This is how they sell their boats.

Centurion Wave: perfectly formed and long, just not the biggest, ie perfect for a 5'5" 150lb pro surfer. The same Deep V that makes Centurion able to lean easy throw a wake with such little weight is also its limiting factor in creating a larger wave.

I don’t care what 135-170lbs 5'5" -5'10" pro wake surfers prefer. I and 99% on here are not going pro. Yes they could absolutely rip it up like Tony Hawk on a skateboard on your 15ft long 18" VTX shin high wave doing skateboard type tricks. I am exaggerating to make my point, but you get the idea. You would never near a real pro surfer say a 3-4ft wave is too big. But hey, lets camera shoot that wave from water level to make it look bigger, then when they ride it and recognize its lacking and boaring, say any wave larger than 24" is too big??

I grew up surfing in Florida surfing 2-4ft waves...with a surfboard. I have taught, I donno, 20+ other guys how to wake surf, most in 185-225 range. those tiny "pro" waves your buddy describes arent going to cut it or make it enjoyable for a lot of folks. Its perfect for a 150lb pro on a skim.

So your post, saying those chasing the larger waves are somehow missing it, no fun or progression? Perhaps thats your definition or your pro buddy's and regurgitated Centurion industry hype to me to up the status of their small waves. Thats THEIR definition of a great wave to make more money and sell more Centurion boats and skim boards. Me and my crew dont want that wave, and I suspect theres a lot of folks like me in this same camp.

I'd take a slammed 247, slammed 23LSV with SG,... or a slammed G any day over that pro wave. No measuring stick contest, this is how we have fun. Dennis here is 57, right at 6ft, 205lbs. thats a solid 3ft wave at 12mph. Full OEM ballast +750ish in the surf trunk.

With all that being said... a good friend here just bought a 2013 233 Enzo this weekend... so more to follow!

[TrickyNicky]

I consider myself surf style how do I get this out of my VTX?

[nyryan2001]

Nicky- I think you can do it...seriously.

if you have a 350 you may need the 2315 prop.

surfside ballast full

Center and front ballast 2/3

gas 1/2 - 2/3

1100 in the trunk maxed out

another 500-750 on top of your surf seats...11.4 - 12mph

[CJAY]

I consider myself surf style how do I get this out of my VTX?

Getting it that large is a bit tough out of a 20ft boat, but you can get a killer large wave out of your VTX. You can get more with less. I run a 750 surf side locker on top of the tank, full center, and 750 in the bow. If we have 4-6 people I don't run anything more, if not I have a 500lbs sack I throw on the surf side seats

[85 Barefoot]

ryan, nice rant, but I have no idea what you're saying. In case you missed it, I already said: "If someone is happy throwing in 4000#s and having a huge wave, great for them."

People can do whatever they want, but the point is that the constant wave-measuring contests have distorted what is needed and what is excessive. Where the line between function and excess is drawn is different for everybody, but, when people here get told factory weight is not sufficient for a good wave on a surfagated VTX, which is the ONLY application I've opined on, that's bad information. That 4000#s doesn't make it bigger is not the point. I have no idea where you're coming from on that Centurion rant but with more than 4000#s of factory-plumbed weight, Centurion wakes have some serious size going on.

Edited July 22, 2013 by 85 Barefoot

[CJAY]

ryan, nice rant, but I have no idea what you're saying. In case you missed it, I already said: "If someone is happy throwing in 4000#s and having a huge wave, great for them."

People can do whatever they want, but the point is that the constant wave-measuring contests have distorted what is needed and what is excessive. Where the line between function and excess is drawn is different for everybody, but, when people here get told factory weight is not sufficient for a good wave on a surfagated VTX, which is the ONLY application I've opined on, that's bad information. That 4000#s doesn't make it bigger is not the point. I have no idea where you're coming from on that Centurion rant but with more than 4000#s of factory-plumbed weight, Centurion wakes have some serious size going on.

To be honest i have yet to see any boat from any manufacturer put up a decent wave with stock ballast. Nor I have I ever seen one that didn't take some dialing in. It's part of the process, just like it is with good wakeboard wakes. I watched a guy try to ride ropeless behind his G23 this weekend, and never get it done, because he had no idea how to make a good wave. The thing was all wash with like a 7 foot pocket. It wasn't the boat, it was the owner. If you want a good surf wave expect to have to add some weight, learn to dial it in, and learn to drive a weighted boat in surf chop.

[TrickyNicky]

CJAY, everytime I put a bag in the front, my wave shrinks dramatically. I can get a person or two up there when we have people in the back but a sac has never worked out for me. ESPECIALLY a 750.

And Ryan maybe your pic's are just more favourable but I don't believe I could ever get that size.

My regular setup is MLS full except non surf side. 750 lb in the locker and 370 lb under the seat. These pics probably have 6-8 ppl on board.

Pics: My little cousin, favourable camera angle but my favourite pic!

Me, 5'10" , probably the fairest picture.

Finally, if I ever get around to fine tuning the gates this was approx 400 lbs in each rear locker, all MLS full except non surf side (ie 200 lb list) and surf gate open. My buddies about the same height as me.

Edited July 24, 2013 by TrickyNicky

[CJAY]

CJAY, everytime I put a bag in the front, my wave shrinks dramatically. I can get a person or two up there when we have people in the back but a sac has never worked out for me. ESPECIALLY a 750.

And Ryan maybe your pic's are just more favourable but I don't believe I could ever get that size.

My regular setup is MLS full except non surf side. 750 lb in the locker and 370 lb under the seat. These pics probably have 6-8 ppl on board.

Pics: My little cousin, favourable camera angle but my favourite pic!

Me, 5'10" , probably the fairest picture.

Finally, if I ever get around to fine tuning the gates this was approx 400 lbs in each rear locker, all MLS full except non surf side (ie 200 lb list) and surf gate open. My buddies about the same height as me.

They do shrink some, but you get more push, pocket and lip with weight up front. If you run overly heavy in the rear you get tall softer waves with shorter pockets

[85 Barefoot]

To be honest i have yet to see any boat from any manufacturer put up a decent wave with stock ballast. Nor I have I ever seen one that didn't take some dialing in. It's part of the process, just like it is with good wakeboard wakes. I watched a guy try to ride ropeless behind his G23 this weekend, and never get it done, because he had no idea how to make a good wave. The thing was all wash with like a 7 foot pocket. It wasn't the boat, it was the owner. If you want a good surf wave expect to have to add some weight, learn to dial it in, and learn to drive a weighted boat in surf chop.

define decent? That's the impetus for this whole discussion. I used the word "great" to define my VTX. Biggest? nope. Would ryan like it? haha, doubtful. Was it fool-proof dialing? yep. So, when you're a wake snob, would you find it "decent"...I dunno...but for someone like RTS who HAS NEVER surfed, is it a great wave, a better wave than he woudl be able to get out of a non-surfgated Vdrive without tens of hours of experimentation and practice, without a doubt. No doubt user-experience helps (like in that G) but you simply didn't need any on that VTX.

I've taken a beating on my use of words because some on here think that the use of the word great means "best" "biggest", which it of course does not. We all see it on our lakes...how many people have complete garbage waves because they don't know how to weight? 75%? The only point that I was making was that out of the box RTS could have a "great" wave with no dialing expertise whatsoever.

Edited July 22, 2013 by 85 Barefoot