"$10,000k + reasonable for purchase install of remanufactured 350 longblock? (Monsoon 340)

[Murphy8166]

Thank you for this, I am actually living in dallas and have the boat in Houston right now so It's not a stretch to get work done in dallas, and yes I just (way to late) realized they are SMG now and not Dmoore? That might have something to do with it. The insurance adjustor is coming out tomorrow and if they deem they wont cover it (most likely scenario) my next step will be to contact water ski america. I will definitely drop your name.

Nice - at least got to go and check out the new WSA in lewisville - the building and service center is legit!

I was in there last week, they are a closed off and ventilated spray roon for gel with lighting and cieling on the wall, a detail room with lighitng on the wall, and two huge pull thru garage bays, that could easliy hold 6 boats. Probably one of the nicest towboat dealerships I have ever seen!

[CliffB]

Here's one that's right for you:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-7L-Vortec-Marine-Long-Block-NEW-Mercruiser-Volvo-Penta-Crusader-OMC-/360561635512?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item53f325f0b8&vxp=mtr

Shipping should be around $500 bucks to you so you're into it for about $3,000 for the engine delivered. Cheap. I'd skip Bakes' $2,500 markup on the same engine. The $2,650 engine from marineenginedepot.com is also an excellent buy and the right engine for you.

Personally, I'd swap the components over myself and install it over the course of the winter and be done with it....put the other $7,000 in the bank for my kid's college education.

Edited January 25, 2013 by CliffB

[Bake's Marine]

Here's one that's right for you:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-7L-Vortec-Marine-Long-Block-NEW-Mercruiser-Volvo-Penta-Crusader-OMC-/360561635512?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item53f325f0b8&vxp=mtr

Shipping should be around $500 bucks to you so you're into it for about $3,000 for the engine delivered. Cheap. I'd skip Bakes' $2,500 markup on the same engine. The $2,650 engine from marineenginedepot.com is also an excellent buy and the right engine for you.

Personally, I'd swap the components over myself and install it over the course of the winter and be done with it....put the other $7,000 in the bank for my kid's college education.

I would really like to see that motor side by side with the engines we get from Indmar.......

[Nitrousbird]

I would really like to see that motor side by side with the engines we get from Indmar.......

I would too...and likely nothing different about them other than this motor doesn't come with a few components like a water pump, balancer, flywheel, spark plugs, etc. It's not like Indmar really does anything other than bolt crap onto a GM crate motor...though the other brands are no different in that regard either.

I'm not saying Bakes is guilty of the heavy markup, but I'm willing to bet the Indmar replacement motors aren't worth the extra dime over just getting a GM Marine crate motor.

[shawndoggy]

I would really like to see that motor side by side with the engines we get from Indmar.......

You should offer one as an option to the next guy who needs a new motor... you know along the lines of "here's what indmar charges us and I know what we get with that motor, but this one sure looks cheaper but I've got no experience with it..."

[Bozboat]

I would too...and likely nothing different about them other than this motor doesn't come with a few components like a water pump, balancer, flywheel, spark plugs, etc. It's not like Indmar really does anything other than bolt crap onto a GM crate motor...though the other brands are no different in that regard either.

I'm not saying Bakes is guilty of the heavy markup, but I'm willing to bet the Indmar replacement motors aren't worth the extra dime over just getting a GM Marine crate motor.

I doubt anyone would give serious consideration to buying a new boat with a crate motor.

FS from BozMarine: One Fully Loaded, New 2013 LSVLXIMXZ 24 Malibu equipped with Chevy Crate Motor

The Indmar brand stamp must stand for something good.

[shawndoggy]

I doubt anyone would give serious consideration to buying a new boat with a crate motor.

FS from BozMarine: One Fully Loaded, New 2013 LSVLXIMXZ 24 Malibu equipped with Chevy Crate Motor

The Indmar brand stamp must stand for something good.

How in the world would anyone know the difference? the long block is the long block and Indmar, PCM, Mercruiser, Illmor, etc etc all start from the same platform. Shoot the LCR and Monsoon long blocks are exactly the same for goodness sake. Once you re-hang all of your indmar marinized accessories on the long block and put that plastic "Monsoon" thing over the spark arrestor, I'm pretty sure your "new crate motor" is just as "Indmar" as an Indmar sourced longblock would be.

IMHO, FWIW, YMMV, etc.

[Tims]

I doubt anyone would give serious consideration to buying a new boat with a crate motor.

FS from BozMarine: One Fully Loaded, New 2013 LSVLXIMXZ 24 Malibu equipped with Chevy Crate Motor

The Indmar brand stamp must stand for something good.

Crate motors are exactly what is equipped in all new Wakeboard boats. They are bought from the GM Marine division and sent to Indmar/PCM where marine components are bolted on. The Indmar brand represents the engineering they do on the exhaust and intake castings and the hardware/electrical ncecessary to mate up the drive systems.

It would be great if we actually had an engine that was specifically designed and engineered for the wakeboard/ski boat.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Tims

[Nitrousbird]

I doubt anyone would give serious consideration to buying a new boat with a crate motor.

FS from BozMarine: One Fully Loaded, New 2013 LSVLXIMXZ 24 Malibu equipped with Chevy Crate Motor

The Indmar brand stamp must stand for something good.

Where did anyone state anything about a new boat with a GM crate motor. The discussion was replacing an existing motor and thr lack of reason to buy an Indmar crate motor. But the reality is that it could be listed as a GM Marine Vortec 350 and people would but it just the same for a new boat.

[FastFreddy]

Crate motors are exactly what is equipped in all new Wakeboard boats. They are bought from the GM Marine division and sent to Indmar/PCM where marine components are bolted on. The Indmar brand represents the engineering they do on the exhaust and intake castings and the hardware/electrical ncecessary to mate up the drive systems.

It would be great if we actually had an engine that was specifically designed and engineered for the wakeboard/ski boat.

A specially designed engine would be way too expensive IMHO. No reason to re-invent the wheel. Take an engine that has been proven reliable (chevy 350) and which is easy to get parts for bolt on a couple of marine parts and you have a reliable marine engine.

Just my 2 cents.

[Bozboat]

Where did anyone state anything about a new boat with a GM crate motor. The discussion was replacing an existing motor and thr lack of reason to buy an Indmar crate motor. But the reality is that it could be listed as a GM Marine Vortec 350 and people would but it just the same for a new boat.

I said it. I believe your point is that the Indmar markup is not worth it when replacing a motor, but in the other thread, a boat can't be "fully loaded" unless it had the top of the line motor.

If I needed a new motor, it would be hard to justify putting the full brand new motor in a 14 year old boat. But, at some level of this game, people expect a full brand motor. I am not sure where the line is, but thinking about a new boat or a two year old boat, I bet the Indmar replacement gives/brings better resale price than the crate replacement.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Bozboat

[Tims]

A specially designed engine would be way too expensive IMHO. No reason to re-invent the wheel. Take an engine that has been proven reliable (chevy 350) and which is easy to get parts for bolt on a couple of marine parts and you have a reliable marine engine.

Just my 2 cents.

Bass boats have 300+hp specific built marine engines and cost much less than a 24MXZ. Yamaha builds specific marine engines for their boats. They are easy to maintain, efficient, and the power band is tuned to match their drive unit.

Personally, I think it's inefficient by nature to take a cheap automotive engine, send it to a 3rd party to be prepped for marine use (charge a markup) then sent to a boat builder to install and sell to the customer (charge another markup)

I am sure the economics and total demand for custom wakeboard boats dictate the current situation, just wish it were different.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Tims

[85 Barefoot]

ain't no 300hp bass boat withe the torque needed for a ski/wake boat. I'm not even a great skier, but I could pull an outboard boat down 2-3 mph pretty easily.

Indmar is doing more than just a few components. They handle all the elctronics which were at one point in time, specificlaly tuned for specific hull. I think that was more a marketing thing when Indmar had mastercraft and Malibu but even still, they do map the calibration, no?

[Tims]

My point on the bass boat was that it is a specific marine designed engine at an affordable cost. I was not suggesting Malibu installs outbaords on their boats. Below is the link for the GM crate engines sold to Indmar with MEFI 6 included. Indmar might tweak some mapping and make specific compoenents as necessary for Malibu (intake, exhaust, etc) in an attempt to differentiate product from the other boat manufactures, but the motor is the same. They are not engine builders like Mercury or Yamaha.

http://gmpowertrain.com/MarineEnginesControllers/ProductPortfolio.aspx

Edited January 30, 2013 by Tims

[Nitrousbird]

I said it. I believe your point is that the Indmar markup is not worth it when replacing a motor, but in the other thread, a boat can't be "fully loaded" unless it had the top of the line motor.

If I needed a new motor, it would be hard to justify putting the full brand new motor in a 14 year old boat. But, at some level of this game, people expect a full brand motor. I am not sure where the line is, but thinking about a new boat or a two year old boat, I bet the Indmar replacement gives/brings better resale price than the crate replacement.

What does one have to do with the other? The motor the boat has is what it has - why buy an Indmar version when you can get the same components with a GM Crate motor.

And GM is far more well known to the public than Indmar, PCM, etc. If you want a branded motor, branding it a GM Vortec Marine would be a much bigger name than Indmar, so that kills that argument. It is more to the point that GM isn't looking into getting into that game, so they sell crate motors to the different marine builders who then slap their stuff on the motor. Saves GM a lot of BS.

But if you already have the slapped on parts, why not just buy the direct crate motor and be done with it, vs. buying that same crate motor from a middle man (Indmar in this case) to replace your blown up motor? And yes, people with a 14 year old boat WILL buy a brand new motor; many times a new motor is a similar cost to a rebuilt motor. I did on my last boat as the price difference was about $200 and my block was trashed so rebuilding wasn't an option anyway.

[85 Barefoot]

My point on the bass boat was that it is a specific marine designed engine at an affordable cost. I was not suggesting Malibu installs outbaords on their boats. Below is the link for the GM crate engines sold to Indmar with MEFI 6 included. Indmar might tweak some mapping and make specific compoenents as necessary for Malibu (intake, exhaust, etc) in an attempt to differentiate product from the other boat manufactures, but the motor is the same. They are not engine builders like Mercury or Yamaha.

http://gmpowertrain.com/MarineEnginesControllers/ProductPortfolio.aspx

Affordable cost? A Yammy 300 is more than 20 grand!

Also, can a "new" MEFI 6 engine from GM work in an older boat? ie, if MEFI 5 started in 2006 OR SO, and MEFI 6 in 2012, what does someone do with a 2003? will new mefis work with older hardware on the boat? I dno't know...I do know that boats with 0 off (txis) have to be running MEFI 5 even if brand new.

Edited January 30, 2013 by 85 Barefoot

[Tims]

Affordable cost? A Yammy 300 is more than 20 grand!

And just the delta between the LSA and Monsoon is like $20 grand. Your point?

[Tims]

What's even more amusing is the growth in stated horsepower of the 5.7 over the years. My engine is rated at 350hp and is basically the exact same engine that was in my 99 Response rated at 325. Would love to see them hooked up a dyno and compare what a little re-mapping and different exhaust system really does to the usefull power curve. I have a pretty strong feeling on the outcome.

ACME told me that the best holeshot engine is still the carburated 5.7 Vortec. Even better than the 6.0

I would go for the crate engine and bolt on the Indmar parts.

[85 Barefoot]

Bass boats have 300+hp specific built marine engines and cost much less than a 24MXZ. Yamaha builds specific marine engines for their boats. They are easy to maintain, efficient, and the power band is tuned to match their drive unit.

Personally, I think it's inefficient by nature to take a cheap automotive engine, send it to a 3rd party to be prepped for marine use (charge a markup) then sent to a boat builder to install and sell to the customer (charge another markup)

I am sure the economics and total demand for custom wakeboard boats dictate the current situation, just wish it were different.

My point on the bass boat was that it is a specific marine designed engine at an affordable cost. I was not suggesting Malibu installs outbaords on their boats. Below is the link for the GM crate engines sold to Indmar with MEFI 6 included. Indmar might tweak some mapping and make specific compoenents as necessary for Malibu (intake, exhaust, etc) in an attempt to differentiate product from the other boat manufactures, but the motor is the same. They are not engine builders like Mercury or Yamaha.

http://gmpowertrain.com/MarineEnginesControllers/ProductPortfolio.aspx

And just the delta between the LSA and Monsoon is like $20 grand. Your point?

Maybe I should ask what's your point? You said that Yamaha builds "specific marine engines for their boats". Yamaha does no such thing. Yamaha makes a wide variety of engines based on power, not what boat its mated to, and owns a smattering of boat manufacturers. There is no yammy line for Cobia's, you simply pick how much power you want. That is not comparable to the ski/wake industry. The only thing congruous would be if Indmar made their own proprietary engine from the ground up, and they owned the manufacturers. Obvioulsy not the case and hence why the marinazation model is the only one that works. For Indmar to produce an engine from the ground up would be completely cost-prohibitive. So, my point is that the yammy model still commands a $20,000/unit price, when they sell THOUSANDS of units and its sourced IN HOUSE. LSA can be had for ten grand, a far better price comparatively. While there may be a lot of cooks in the kitchen, its stil a more efficient model.

[CliffB]

I would really like to see that motor side by side with the engines we get from Indmar.......

I'm not critiquing what you guys sell - obviously it's a good marine engine with all the proper whistles and bells....and comes with the famous Bakes customer service. For somebody without any engine/mechanical skills, it's exactly what they need, and they should be happy to get it from you guys.

What I'm essentially saying is that a guy can skip the mark up from Indmar and a retail seller if he has an existing marine/Indmar engine, tools, and some engine skills. Starting with a crate marine long block at $2,500, he (or she??) can swap over the correct Indmar/marine components from the old/existing engine, and have exactly the same engine when he's done, all for a very reasonable cost.

Personally, this works for me as I have the skills and tools and facilities. With four kids to put through college I prefer writing a $3,000 check and doing a bit of work myself (which I enjoy anyway) rather than a $10,000 check. I completely understand and agree this isn't for everyone though, and just buying the complete Indmar engine from you folks is the right choice for many folks.

[Tims]

Maybe I should ask what's your point? You said that Yamaha builds "specific marine engines for their boats". Yamaha does no such thing. Yamaha makes a wide variety of engines based on power, not what boat its mated to, and owns a smattering of boat manufacturers. There is no yammy line for Cobia's, you simply pick how much power you want. That is not comparable to the ski/wake industry. The only thing congruous would be if Indmar made their own proprietary engine from the ground up, and they owned the manufacturers. Obvioulsy not the case and hence why the marinazation model is the only one that works. For Indmar to produce an engine from the ground up would be completely cost-prohibitive. So, my point is that the yammy model still commands a $20,000/unit price, when they sell THOUSANDS of units and its sourced IN HOUSE. LSA can be had for ten grand, a far better price comparatively. While there may be a lot of cooks in the kitchen, its stil a more efficient model.

Are you saying that the LSA is a $10K option or it cost's Indmar $10K to buy? When I was shopping for a boat. it was $6K extra for 6.0, $14K for 6.2 and close to $20K for LSA. Perhaps it has changed. That's big bucks to option up and much of that cost is margin that both Malibu and Indmar pockets. Sure, good for them.

My point: There is quite a bit of non-value added dollars flying around and if the volume made sense and deal could be made with a true marine engine builder, perhaps the consumer could see some of that value in terms of efficiency, ease of maintenace, and increased performance. If you are happy with an old chevy engine in your boat, more power to you. I would like something better for my $80K.

Yamaha does indeed make a MARINE specific (meaning that Yamaha engineered the engine to be in a marine application) engine. They do go into a varity of Yamaha boats and PWC's. Their Supercharged 1.8L engine makes over 220 hp and has great torque for the size, is super easy to maintain, efficient, and affordable.

I understand that volume is responsible for what is currently available as stated in my earlier posts, but there are always better ways to skin a cat, put a boat together, or build an engine. If the market demands something better, someone eventually figures out a way to deliver.

[85 Barefoot]

http://autoplicity.com/products/1709142-gm_performance_12624263_engine_asm_gasoline_6_2l_lsa__goodwrench_.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=1709142NOFITMENT&utm_campaign=GSNOFITMENT&adtype=pla&kw=&utm_term=&adpos=1o1&network=g&gclid=CJ74vff9kLUCFQSqnQodrgcAAQ

[85 Barefoot]

Are you saying that the LSA is a $10K option or it cost's Indmar $10K to buy? When I was shopping for a boat. it was $6K extra for 6.0, $14K for 6.2 and close to $20K for LSA. Perhaps it has changed. That's big bucks to option up and much of that cost is margin that both Malibu and Indmar pockets. Sure, good for them.

My point: There is quite a bit of non-value added dollars flying around and if the volume made sense and deal could be made with a true marine engine builder, perhaps the consumer could see some of that value in terms of efficiency, ease of maintenace, and increased performance. If you are happy with an old chevy engine in your boat, more power to you. I would like something better for my $80K.

Yamaha does indeed make a MARINE specific (meaning that Yamaha engineered the engine to be in a marine application) engine. They do go into a varity of Yamaha boats and PWC's. Their Supercharged 1.8L engine makes over 220 hp and has great torque for the size, is super easy to maintain, efficient, and affordable.

I understand that volume is responsible for what is currently available as stated in my earlier posts, but there are always better ways to skin a cat, put a boat together, or build an engine. If the market demands something better, someone eventually figures out a way to deliver.

You're comparing a jet ski manufacturer and the volume thereof with what, indmar's non-design of a proprietary engine for about what, 3,000 boats a year? Economy of scale couldn't be further apart, especially when a 1.8L engine has such substantially less expensive regulations to comply with.

What right now does the market demand that's better than current offerings from PCM and Indmar? You want an antiquaited yet simple SBC, you got it. 550 HP with a blower, you got it. What "more" do people want? Cheaper prices? PCM and Indmar have been OEM equipment for 30 years. You see what the engines cost "raw". The astronomical price increases aren't due to Indmar or PCM. I bet Indmar makes $500 an engine. Hardly the driver of ridiculous price increases. Malibu does make some but its not that much, and dealer may see the biggest chunk of markup of them all (proportionately speaking). But, I simply fail to see the issue.

Edited January 30, 2013 by 85 Barefoot

[Tims]

http://autoplicity.com/products/1709142-gm_performance_12624263_engine_asm_gasoline_6_2l_lsa__goodwrench_.aspx?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=1709142NOFITMENT&utm_campaign=GSNOFITMENT&adtype=pla&kw=&utm_term=&adpos=1o1&network=g&gclid=CJ74vff9kLUCFQSqnQodrgcAAQ

You're comparing a jet ski manufacturer and the volume thereof with what, indmar's non-design of a proprietary engine for about what, 3,000 boats a year. Economy of scale couldn't be further apart.

What right now does the market demand that's better than current offerings from PCM and Indmar? You want an antiquaited yet simple SBC, you got it, 550 HP with a blower, you got it. What "more" do people want? Cheaper prices? PCM and Indmar have been OEM equipment for 30 years. You see what the engines cost "raw". The astronomical price increases aren't due to Indmar or PCM. I bet Indmar makes $500 an engine. Hardly the driver of ridiculous price increases. I simply fail to see the issue.

You fail to see an issue when a raw LSA costs $10K but we are charged $20K extra on top of the standard engine to have it? These boats continue to grow and grow in price and size and we are left with basically the same base powerplants with the exception of the (too expensive for me LSA) Oh ya, the boat prices have accordingly gone up and up, with the same engine as my 99 Response. But because Indmar and PCM have been doing it for 30 years there must be no better way. Sounds like GM 20 years ago. If Indmar is buying an LSA for $10K and selling it to Malibu for $30K with only $500 in profit then their business model sucks. If Malibu is making $20k in markup then we are getting screwed.

What do I want? I want a boat that planes out faster than 30 seconds when loaded with some extra ballast without paying an extra $20K on top of an already high price. Ya, I must be crazy.

What would prevent Malibu from reaching out to Yamaha or Merc to see if something could be done to improve status quo? Just an idea and perhaps a bad one since I don't have the balance sheets and cash flow data in front of me to say there is no way.

Sorry for hijacking this thread with my rambling.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Tims

[Nitrousbird]

You fail to see an issue when a raw LSA costs $10K but we are charged $20K extra on top of the standard engine to have it? These boats continue to grow and grow in price and size and we are left with basically the same base powerplants with the exception of the (too expensive for me LSA) Oh ya, the boat prices have accordingly gone up and up, with the same engine as my 99 Response. But because Indmar and PCM have been doing it for 30 years there must be no better way. Sounds like GM 20 years ago. If Indmar is buying an LSA for $10K and selling it to Malibu for $30K with only $500 in profit then their business model sucks. If Malibu is making $20k in markup then we are getting screwed.

What do I want? I want a boat that planes out faster than 30 seconds when loaded with some extra ballast without paying an extra $20K on top of an already high price. Ya, I must be crazy.

What would prevent Malibu from reaching out to Yamaha or Merc to see if something could be done to improve status quo? Just an idea and perhaps a bad one since I don't have the balance sheets and cash flow data in front of me to say there is no way

The real, available, ready to use answer is diesel power, but for some reason it hasn't caught on in the wakeboat world.

I'm sure Malibu, Indmar, and the dealer all get their cut of the LSA markup. I'm sure Indmar has 1-2k in add-on parts to the base LSA cost, plus their R&D costs...then tack on the overhead costs associated with every motor they distribute. I'm sure they are also making a little more profit off the top for the LSA motor. Malibu gets it at the Indmar price, subtracts what the base motor would cost them, then adds in a bit more profit. Dealer gets the boat and they add their profit in as well. Next thing you know the LSA is a 20k option, which is a hard pill to swallow.