Another tow vehicle question

[Slayer]

I tested the chevy 1500 HD for a week (a few years ago). Could not get above 10 mpg in town only. It did have the 4 wheel steering that was pretty fun.

If moving beyond the OP question of 5.3 newer or 2006 well kept duramax, my current solution is the F-150 Ecoboost, which has amazing power at 2000 rpms. Closet thing to a diesel in power and while the ecoboost does not get as good of mileage towing as some, it does get good mileage. Still haven't gotten used to the lack of cool motor noises, but the sheer power is amazing.

I could not have put that any better. Agree 100%.

[Deephaven]

My 5.3 Silverado was hands down the worst tow vehicle I've ever driven. Felt out matched by a teeny Ranger 521vx and flat out was unresponsive and scary towing anything bigger. No way I'd hook up my LSV to it. That being said I don't think you've described a need for a diesel. You drive so few miles per year total it'll be tough. I suppose the real question is how many do you tow? And where do you want to compromise.

[Lakenut]

This summer I bought a chevy 1500 with the 6.2L towing package. I was driving an 01 silverado with the old 5.3 and 4 speed tranny. Granted my sunsetter isn't a heavy wakesurfing machine, but it sits right at 5,000lbs with the trailer and gear. The 5.3 would pull it fine on short trips, but on the highway it had to work reallly hard. Having said that, it had 120k miles on it w/o any mechanical issues. Last summer I had the chance to pull 400 miles with a 2500 duramax...it was a beast...never ever shifted on the highway and got 17-18 mph at 75 mph.

This year when I started looking at new trucks, I looked first at the 2500...couldn't justfy the expense of the duramax plus my truck is my daily driver. I looked at the 2500 gasser but just couldn't stand the thought of sub 10mpg in town every day...plus the truck was too big for the garage.

Enter the 6.2L...after test driving a new silverado with the 5.3 then the 6.2 it was like driving two different trucks. After a little searching I found the truck I wanted and pulled the trigger. Pulling the boat in town, stop and go, you can barely tell the boat is back there. Put it on the highway and things get better. Our turnpikes here in OK have a 75 mph speedlimt and some are in fairly hilly regions...while the hills aren't huge there is a LOT of up grades followed by down grades. (WIth the old 4 speed it caused a lot of shifting.) In tow-haul the tranny likes to stay put in 5th w/o shifting up and down. On flat streches, she will shift up to 6th and just hum along.

With the boat, a bed full of luggage, coolers, etc... 4 passengers I got right around 12 mph on the highway...not great, but right about the same MPG as the 5.3L. On one trip the outside air temp ranged from 105*-110* and the tranny never went over 195*. Most of the time was in the 185* range.

Gas mileage w/o the boat has been at 14 in town and 17 .5 on the highway. It is a 4x4 so I am sure that knock mileage by a mile or two on both of those numbers. Kind of inbetween a 1/2 ton and the 3/4 ton gasser. The thing is plain fun to drive.

[hethj7]

Since we seem to have gone away from the original question here, do yourself a favor and at least test drive the Ecoboost. I was towing up hill running nearly 80 and it was just chugging along under 2500 rpm. It is a beast. My mileage towing was about like other gas trucks, but keeping my foot out of the throttle, I have got just over 20 mpg when not towing.

Edited September 11, 2012 by hethj7

[SurfgateBob]

As a Durmax owner and a previous 6L gas 2500HD owner, I an say with confidence the duramax is a great option. It has really really low miles on it for a diesel as well.

[MalibuTime]

Good morning guys hope everyone had a good weekend on the water. Had a quick question out there for you guys on tow vehicle.

Right now I have a 2011 silverado 5.3 4x4 6dpd hd trailering package. I tow 80mi round trip to the lake 1/2 of which are windy steeper graded roads. For the most part it tows our VLX great, works up some of the steeper stuff but overall good. Tranny temp hovers around 199 peaked yesterday at 214. So here comes the question of opinion and I know there is no comparison Btwn diesel and gas but rather want to know what you guys would do.

At the end of the year I have the ability to possibly trade a buddy of mine who is selling his trailer for a motor home. So here is the trade my truck currently 18k miles. For his 07 gmc Sierra 4x4 dmax with 60k. Now I know that that thing would be fantastic to tow with as I owned one years ago. But mine tows ok. 90% of the time as a daily driver mine would be more comfortable and cheaper buying gas vs diesel. My main concern is the wear and tear on mine through the years working it will it hold up. So with that what would you guys do?!?

I think you should find a good transmission shop in your area, and/or search the net to see what options there are for your transmission. Unless there is more to what you are looking for, you are enamored with the though of towing with a diesel (which would be awesome) when most of your driving you would be punishing your rear and your truck with short in-town hops. It sounds like the only issue you have with your current rig is that you are worried the transmission will fail/overheat when towing. If you can solve that, even with a $4000 transmission rebuild with heavy duty components (can this be done? dunno) you might solve your problem and still have a better daily driver, or decide you want to change trucks at that point, but at least you would have exhausted your options with your current truck.

Edited September 11, 2012 by MalibuTime

[Hozzr1]

Thanks guys for all the great comments. I wish I could justify dropping some coin on a new Ecoboost or a 6.2l Chevy but just can't. This would be a opportunity to trade one truck to another both at hi book values which are within a couple hundred dollars. I know the diesel is a towing beast and would tow that BU any where. My worry about my current truck is not only the transmission temperatures but just the beating in general through the years ie engine etc. we do 40+ trips to the lake just summer alone. But like myself and a lot of you have said its the daily driver too.

[MalibuTime]

Thanks guys for all the great comments. I wish I could justify dropping some coin on a new Ecoboost or a 6.2l Chevy but just can't. This would be a opportunity to trade one truck to another both at hi book values which are within a couple hundred dollars. I know the diesel is a towing beast and would tow that BU any where. My worry about my current truck is not only the transmission temperatures but just the beating in general through the years ie engine etc. we do 40+ trips to the lake just summer alone. But like myself and a lot of you have said its the daily driver too.

That puts things more in perspective, you are right 3200+ miles of towing a year with those grades mixed in, swap for the diesel.

[shawndoggy]

Interesting discussion.

My daily driver is a civic si. I put on about 6k a year driving to work. Less lately as I've been commuting by bicycle 3 days a week (16 miles round trip).

My wife's daily driver is the qx56, which is also our tow rig. She does about 11K a year (longer commute, more kid shuttling).

We tow a MINIMUM of 90 miles round trip to the lake. Frequently we'll do 100 miles each way (200miles round trip), starting at 5k', going over a 7500' mountain pass, down twisty roads to end at 1900' ASL. Several times this summer the QX has started to get hot towing home, and we've had to go windows down with AC off to keep temps down.

So I've really got the jones on for a diesel for towing. This would entail a BIG car switcheroo, with me getting the diesel as a DD, and the mrs getting a "car." Unfortunately she hates (but can) drive a manual trans, so no way will she keep the civic.

I KNOW that I would love the diesel for towing, but it sounds like as a short trip DD not so much? Would I be doing damage to a diesel by only doing 8 miles in to work (to work is 800' lower elevation in 8 miles too ... only 15 minutes most days). I kindof doubt I'd even be really warmed up before arriving at work.

[teamerickson]

Interesting discussion.

My daily driver is a civic si. I put on about 6k a year driving to work. Less lately as I've been commuting by bicycle 3 days a week (16 miles round trip).

My wife's daily driver is the qx56, which is also our tow rig. She does about 11K a year (longer commute, more kid shuttling).

We tow a MINIMUM of 90 miles round trip to the lake. Frequently we'll do 100 miles each way (200miles round trip), starting at 5k', going over a 7500' mountain pass, down twisty roads to end at 1900' ASL. Several times this summer the QX has started to get hot towing home, and we've had to go windows down with AC off to keep temps down.

So I've really got the jones on for a diesel for towing. This would entail a BIG car switcheroo, with me getting the diesel as a DD, and the mrs getting a "car." Unfortunately she hates (but can) drive a manual trans, so no way will she keep the civic.

I KNOW that I would love the diesel for towing, but it sounds like as a short trip DD not so much? Would I be doing damage to a diesel by only doing 8 miles in to work (to work is 800' lower elevation in 8 miles too ... only 15 minutes most days). I kindof doubt I'd even be really warmed up before arriving at work.

I think your priorities are a little off. You need to move closer to the lake.

[Bozboat]

Interesting discussion.

My daily driver is a civic si. I put on about 6k a year driving to work. Less lately as I've been commuting by bicycle 3 days a week (16 miles round trip).

My wife's daily driver is the qx56, which is also our tow rig. She does about 11K a year (longer commute, more kid shuttling).

Several times this summer the QX has started to get hot towing home, and we've had to go windows down with AC off to keep temps down.

So I've really got the jones on for a diesel for towing. This would entail a BIG car switcheroo, with me getting the diesel as a DD, and the mrs getting a "car." Unfortunately she hates (but can) drive a manual trans, so no way will she keep the civic.

I KNOW that I would love the diesel for towing, but it sounds like as a short trip DD not so much? Would I be doing damage to a diesel by only doing 8 miles in to work (to work is 800' lower elevation in 8 miles too ... only 15 minutes most days). I kindof doubt I'd even be really warmed up before arriving at work.

I entered all of this info into my Tow Solution Program. Here is the answer: Keep the civic for Jr to drive in three years. Leave the wife alone. Get an Ecoboost for your DD.

Explanation: 1) never wise to mess with the wife 2) Jr₁ will need the Civic before you can blink 3) the Ecoboost has diesel power without the hassle and expense. 4) You will ruin the diesel using it as a DD, as you will never get it up to operating temp. (after a few weeks of that it will run like crap. This happened to my Dodge Cummins and my Duramax, forcing me to take them out onto the highway for a cleansing, which erased any fuel savings I thought I might have had) (1, unless you can talk Jr into using your bike, but that screws up the reasoning for the Ecoboost

Edited September 11, 2012 by Bozboat

[shawndoggy]

Insurance for 16 yo boy in a civic SI makes keeping the civic a bad financial decision. But it's a great commuter. Lots of fun and I still get 26mpg in very hilly around town only driving.

I'm a major cheapass and like to pay cash for cars so brand new EcoBoost isn't really feasible either. Other option would prolly be an early to mid 2000's GM 2500 with 8.1. Filling the tank would be a great motivator to ride my bike!

[Big Jay D]

I have owned various tow vehicles over the years.

99 Tacoma V6

01 Tundra V8

01 Duramax

06 Cummins

The Tacoma was ok for flat tows. It towed my 5000pound car around from track to track ok. But it did breath hard. I never checked the gas mileage towing because gas prices were cheep in 01. Like $.99 cheap.

The Tacoma was totaled and I replaced it with the Tundra. It was slightly worse in town and about 4mpg worse going 75 on the interstate (not towing). I used my Tundra to tow a 20ft travel trailer to San Diego. I don't know what the weight was but the truck got 4mpg there and 8mpg back. 65-70mph. The truck would only tow the big hill going over the mountains in 2nd gear, WOT at 45mph. LOL! I traded it in for the Duramax.

The Duramax towing the same trailer at the same speed averaged 13mpg. Although the destination was not the same the Duramax had more hills to go up against. I put 33" LTX AT2 tires on it, a tuner and the rest was stock. The tuner was good for a couple MPG and a bit more power. I think if I had a Duramax I would find a tuner that doesn't bump rail pressure though. Best MPG was 19 hiway without towing. I got rid of the Duramax because it ate injectors. The LLY might be better but I'm not sure.

I have an '06 Megacab with the 5.9 Cummins. I think the truck rides better than my Duramax. I installed the Smarty S06 a CIA, a free flow exhaust and it came with crappy 35" tires. This truck is huge compared to my duramax. In stock for the truck was horrible on fuel. But with the addition of the tuner I was able to add a full3 mpg and the best I have seen is 21mpg round trip 260 miles going 65max, unloaded. I got 14.5mpg on a 800+ mile round trip to Powell towing my LSV. The truck is a beast. Towing up the super long and steep grade leaving Phoenix up the Black Canyon Mesa the truck holds 65mph (on cruise control) without breaking a sweat. Engine temps hover around 200 and trans temp never goes over 200. But like gorilla said. If you are gear hunting and going in and out of lockup your trans will get hot fast.

I will never own a gas truck again. The diesel gets a consistent 15-17mpg in town and 19-21 on the interstate as long as I don't go over 70mph. Speed kills and the 35" tires don't help one bit.

If you can afford the premium and are willing to do a little research on fuel economy tricks and tips the diesel is the only way to go.

Plus the resale factor. My 2001 GMC Sierra 4x4 Duramax SLT with 230,000 miles booked for $13500 with in the last year...

[MLBurns]

If you want to buy another truck, bigger is better. If buget is tight, get a aftermarket cooler with a fan and have a shop put a pressure riser or shift kit in. Once you get the clutch packs hot one time, they will never be the same and wont last long. I daily drive my Duramax, but I also have a DPF delete so it doesn't regen. I have had 1500's, 2500's with gas engines but have never been happier than I have been going diesel. Just got back from almost 600 mile round trip to the lake and averaged 16mpg pulling a 247. Never would happen with gas engine.

[Falko]

Diesel power is addicting, once you tow anything heavy with one that's all you'll want. I would recommend driving the 2500 for a few days and see if you can deal with ride, they are stiffer. But resale and overall economy are usually better with the diesel.

As for your truck towing, the 4.8/5.3 are two of the worst towing V8 engines, imho. The torque curve peaks way to high, around 4500 if I remember correctly. The engine always wants to rev.

As for the transmission heat, as a previous poster said, look into a larger cooler and shift kit to tighten things up.

[timjame0719]

Well for my .02 I have a 06 VLX with lots of gear. I've owned a 2010 crew cab silverado with the 5.3L, a 2011 crew cab silverado with the 6.2L, a 2008 crew cab silverado 3500 dually diesel, and now jumped into a 2012 Ford crew cab F150 with the Ecoboost. To clarify the box thing, in crew cab models for 1/2 ton you can only get the 5'8" bed in the silverado. The F150 you can get the 5'5" bed or the 6'5" bed in crew cab. The silverado 2500 and up get the 6'5" to 8' beds if that is an issue for you on lenght of box for other hauling you may do. If that's not a concern then forget that useless info .

On the tranny temps let me say that I always worried about them and don't like to see them go over 200. My 07 Tahoe with the 5.3L would regularly run 210 on hot days towing when I hit grades. My 2010 Silverado with the 5.3L did the same and it had the max tow package with that motor and the 3.42 gear. No sure would I run the "economy" rear end they offer with the 3.08 ratio. I agree with Boz the 4.8L and 5.3L are a disappointment in the towing department. When I stepped up to the 6.2L I was happy. That also had the max towing package and I never had an issue with trans temp or power. Was thirsty and I averaged 14.2 MPG half city/freeway. Nothing pulled my boat as well as the dually silverado I had with the diesel motor, it was the first time I could really say I didn't know it was back there with the postive power to zero extra rear end bouncing but I really didn't need the dually as a daily driver having an RV now and not a fifth wheeler so that's where I end now with my F150 Ecoboost. As mentioned above, plenty of power and I have no doubt this will pull through the hills of Tennesee next year. My only complaint again is transmission temps. It stays at 197 degrees without towing, 203 while towing mild conditions. Not sure what it's going to do in the hills. Was told this is normal as the guage still reads in the normal range up through the 220s and it was supposed to run hotter. Odd. I only went to Ford because of the large back seat room for my kids and cool interior features.

To sum it up for you....duramax. If you towed short distance once a week the Silverado would be ok. Traveling 80 mi round trip a lot even though this is your daily driver, my vote is diesel. I was extremely disapointed with my 2010 Silverado 5.3L especially long distances.

[Hozzr1]

It is horrible as far as towing. Keeps searching for gears winding up etc. so is the weak point the motor? Or the 6 speed transmission? Or combo of both?

[Bozboat]

My experience on trans temps towing six hours on freeway between Texas and Arkansas in 110 degree Texas heat:

Denali Sierra, AWD 6.2, Trans Temp would move up and down. Engine had to run higher RPMS and drop into 4th gear on 1% or above grades, to maintain 75 mph. Truck seem to work hard on the hills. Trans temp moved between 200-215 and once to 220 or so in the hills around Hot Springs

Ecoboost: Same trip as above, same time of year. Truck maintained 6th gear and just under 2000 rpms all day long on the highways. Had to use cruise control to keep from speeding. Really no noticeable effort from truck. Trans temp stayed right about 197-200 on the digital gauge and well in normal range on the analogue gauge. Running with or without the trailer does not seem to impact trans temps.

Gas mileage was the same, door to door 10.5 mpg. I don't understand why or how, but on both trips I would leave the truck running during food stops to keep the cabin pressurized with cool air and to allow the fluids to circulate. Nothing kills MPG like the P gear.

[Bozboat]

It is horrible as far as towing. Keeps searching for gears winding up etc. so is the weak point the motor? Or the 6 speed transmission? Or combo of both?

which truck?

[Big Jay D]

Probably both. You should down shift the transmission so it doesn't hunt as much. If you are going through a series of hills that you know will cause the hunting issue downshift the trans to hold it in 4th or 5th. It's the hunting that is causing an issue. Everytime the transmission shifts it unlocks the torque converter and depending on the way the trans was engineered it might not re-engage the converter clutch because the throttle position is too high.

Being higher in the RPM will also move you closer to the peak spot for the engines volumetric efficiency. When you near this RPM the engine will produce more power with less fuel.

I know most people think that a lower rpm will give you a better MPG but that is simply no the case. Fuel has a BTU rating and it takes "X" BTUs to produce "Y" horsepower. So it doesn't matter what gear you are in you are going to be using nearly the same fuel to make your weighted vehicle travel at your targeted speed. The only time this changes is if you are holding a specific horsepower need. Then the low RPM will gain you a bit of economy just because the parasitic losses go down.

[Bozboat]

Probably both. You should down shift the transmission so it doesn't hunt as much. If you are going through a series of hills that you know will cause the hunting issue downshift the trans to hold it in 4th or 5th. It's the hunting that is causing an issue. Everytime the transmission shifts it unlocks the torque converter and depending on the way the trans was engineered it might not re-engage the converter clutch because the throttle position is too high.

Being higher in the RPM will also move you closer to the peak spot for the engines volumetric efficiency. When you near this RPM the engine will produce more power with less fuel.

I know most people think that a lower rpm will give you a better MPG but that is simply no the case. Fuel has a BTU rating and it takes "X" BTUs to produce "Y" horsepower. So it doesn't matter what gear you are in you are going to be using nearly the same fuel to make your weighted vehicle travel at your targeted speed. The only time this changes is if you are holding a specific horsepower need. Then the low RPM will gain you a bit of economy just because the parasitic losses go down.

That is pretty interesting, I was puzzled about the fuel/power/speed relationships.

[Falko]

Probably both. You should down shift the transmission so it doesn't hunt as much. If you are going through a series of hills that you know will cause the hunting issue downshift the trans to hold it in 4th or 5th. It's the hunting that is causing an issue. Everytime the transmission shifts it unlocks the torque converter and depending on the way the trans was engineered it might not re-engage the converter clutch because the throttle position is too high.

Being higher in the RPM will also move you closer to the peak spot for the engines volumetric efficiency. When you near this RPM the engine will produce more power with less fuel.

I know most people think that a lower rpm will give you a better MPG but that is simply no the case. Fuel has a BTU rating and it takes "X" BTUs to produce "Y" horsepower. So it doesn't matter what gear you are in you are going to be using nearly the same fuel to make your weighted vehicle travel at your targeted speed. The only time this changes is if you are holding a specific horsepower need. Then the low RPM will gain you a bit of economy just because the parasitic losses go down.

Running an engine at lower rpm makes a big difference in internal engine losses. Yes, fuel has x amount of energy per gallon, but when you double the internal losses of the engine by increasing the rpm, you need more fuel to overcome that loss. An engine is a large air pump, higher rpms more air being pumped, much more resistance. The difference in resistance is not linear, it is more a squared function. I'd take an engine towing at 2500 rpm over that of 4500 rpm any day. Of course, much of the loss is negated when you intorduce forced induction.

[Hozzr1]

When I tow the BU I lock out 5th an 6th gear by going in to M4 mode then but it into tow haul. Stays around 2500 rpm. Pulls better and doesn't hunt as much but still lack of power on grades and tranny temp up at 214' on a 90' day. I think if I can swing it I will trade for the Duramax at end of the year.

[jkendallmsce]

Probably both. You should down shift the transmission so it doesn't hunt as much. If you are going through a series of hills that you know will cause the hunting issue downshift the trans to hold it in 4th or 5th. It's the hunting that is causing an issue. Everytime the transmission shifts it unlocks the torque converter and depending on the way the trans was engineered it might not re-engage the converter clutch because the throttle position is too high.

Being higher in the RPM will also move you closer to the peak spot for the engines volumetric efficiency. When you near this RPM the engine will produce more power with less fuel.

I know most people think that a lower rpm will give you a better MPG but that is simply no the case. Fuel has a BTU rating and it takes "X" BTUs to produce "Y" horsepower. So it doesn't matter what gear you are in you are going to be using nearly the same fuel to make your weighted vehicle travel at your targeted speed. The only time this changes is if you are holding a specific horsepower need. Then the low RPM will gain you a bit of economy just because the parasitic losses go down.

If you could do/perform a diamcon on your engine , you'd find Falko is right...Your frictional forces, crank/belts/AC rotating, pistons going up and down, increase, so given the same speed, you always get getter gas mileage going with the lower rps...unless your simply lugging the engine. All those moving part rob you of HP, generate heat (that why many are lubricated) or use bearings of some sort.

It was interesting having the diacom used to test my old HH...Tested at each 1,000 rpm incrrement, you use exponentally more gas at WOT, I think it was about 35+ gph, as apposed to say 3000 rpm which was about 15-17 gph. Course you are pushing more water and those frictional forces grow exponentally too, but you get the idea. I have the print out stashed away somewhere.

You'll burn say X gallons to get from point A to point B at 3000 rpm, but you'll burn waaay more if you go the same distance at WOT. You get there faster, but it costs you way more.

Edited September 12, 2012 by jkendallmsce

[Big Jay D]

Running an engine at lower rpm makes a big difference in internal engine losses. Yes, fuel has x amount of energy per gallon, but when you double the internal losses of the engine by increasing the rpm, you need more fuel to overcome that loss. An engine is a large air pump, higher rpms more air being pumped, much more resistance. The difference in resistance is not linear, it is more a squared function. I'd take an engine towing at 2500 rpm over that of 4500 rpm any day. Of course, much of the loss is negated when you intorduce forced induction.

Very true. I some what mis typed my explanation. If you need "X" power to go a certain speed, whether it be up a grade or not, there comes a point where the engine needs RPM to use the fuel efficiently to make the power needed. Just because you can put a vehicle in OD while towing doesn't mean it will get better MPG while doing it. Just like in our boats, a slammed 'bu with a tall prop will lug the engine. This cause hot spots, burnt valves, fouled plugs among a host of various problems. There is a reason the automatic transmissions have a kick down setting engineered into them. It's not just for acceleration.

Hozzr, just pull the trans out of OD. If you learn to drive the truck with the TCC (torque converter clutch) in mind you can drive around some of the factory default settings. Give it a little extra throttle to go past your speed target and then momentarily lift on the throttle. This should, in theory (I don't own this particular vehicle), lock up the TCC and keep the trans cooler and get better MPG. The TCC basically takes the slip out of an auto trans. Even though higher RPM will reduce slip tp almost nothing there is still some slip and with the added load of the boat and the steeper grades the slip will increase and in turn increase the temperature of the fluid.