RV antifreeze/ WINTERIZE Neat idea!

[skislut]

The pink stuff is supposed to be nontoxic, but it kills my grass when I start the boat up in the Spring and let it run out.

They never said that the pink stuff was "non-toxic", they call it "Safer" -- with the emphasis on the "r" as it is not "safe" . I looked up the MSDS once and it appears like it is about five times less toxic, but toxic still.

[VinRLX]

Brings me to the question I've been pondering for a few years.  Maybe it's better to drain the anti freeze out.  Then, there's nothing in the engine, but a little antifreeze.

We used to run the green stuff into the lake until someone told us that 1 gal green anti freeze pollutes 750,000 gal of lake water. 

The pink stuff is supposed to be nontoxic, but it kills my grass when I start the boat up in the Spring and let it run out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

88, after reading up a bit on antifreeze, I decided that if I used -50° stuff that I would drain afterward. Or, if I could readily get some -60° or -100,° I would leave it in. The -50, in addition to being a lower burst point, does not contain the anti-corrosives like the others. The manufacturers do not seem to recommend leaving the -50 in during lay-up. YMMV

[88Skier]

Brings me to the question I've been pondering for a few years.  Maybe it's better to drain the anti freeze out.  Then, there's nothing in the engine, but a little antifreeze.

We used to run the green stuff into the lake until someone told us that 1 gal green anti freeze pollutes 750,000 gal of lake water. 

The pink stuff is supposed to be nontoxic, but it kills my grass when I start the boat up in the Spring and let it run out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

88, after reading up a bit on antifreeze, I decided that if I used -50° stuff that I would drain afterward. Or, if I could readily get some -60° or -100,° I would leave it in. The -50, in addition to being a lower burst point, does not contain the anti-corrosives like the others. The manufacturers do not seem to recommend leaving the -50 in during lay-up. YMMV

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've never seen anything other than the -50 for sale around here.

Funny thing about corrosion, my 03 has a lot of debris in the block when I drain the water out of it. My 88 used to, but doesn't anymore. I never get any debris out of it when I poke wire in the drain holes.

I think starting next year, I will drain the block after I pickle it.

[VinRLX]

I've never seen anything other than the -50 for sale around here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try West Marine/Boat US. Here's a couple.

[88Skier]

I've never seen anything other than the -50 for sale around here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try West Marine/Boat US. Here's a couple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll have to check them out. I never go there because they usually don't have everything I want and then I just have to go to Hamilton's anyways.

Your getting pretty good with that internet.

[VinRLX]

Your getting pretty good with that internet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, somebody had to get off the barcalounger. I regret, however, that I am not even 1/10 as good as the Master.

[timjame0719]

Speaking of all this antifreeze stuff, I would still like to get out one or two more times. Two nights ago, it dropped down to 33 degrees, last night it went to 32, and tonight it's supposed to be 28 degrees. After tonight, the temp. isn't supposed to go lower than 40-45 at night. Should I be draining the block before these cooler nights to prevent damage or does it take numerous cold nights to freeze the water in the block in order to make it expand and cause damage?

[NorCaliBu]

Should I be draining the block before these cooler nights to prevent damage or does it take numerous cold nights to freeze the water in the block in order to make it expand and cause damage?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It depends on daytime temps and how long during the night you are below 32*. If during the day your temps are in the 60's then it would take more than a couple of hours below freezing to cause damage. If you're worried about it....toss a work light in there to keep the temp up....but I wouldn't worry about it.

Of course, what do I know about freezing temps....I live in CA.

[timjame0719]

Thank you. It only gets to those temps at night for a few hours. Daytime temps are upper 50's to mid 60's. Those cold nights are over after tonight for the next week or so (won't drop below 40 at night) and this will probably be my last week before I winterize. Thanks again. I could solve all of this if I lived in your neck of the woods but the wife won't go for it.

[VinRLX]

Does your boat have a heater or shower? My first concern would be for the heater core.

[timjame0719]

Nope, I didn't get those options. As much as I'd like them, they will be aftermarket. The boat does sit outside (covered) and it is in the middle of a city so the temps tend to stay a bit higher than the lower lying area. It gets below freezing for a few hours and then warms up right to upper 50's to mid 60's. Tonight is the last night it will come close to freezing. It is supposed to be 28 in the lower lying areas but currently (almost midnight) it's 41. So it must not be that low for long and after tonight it won't drop below 40-45 for the next week or week and a half (I should have it winterized in two weeks).

[Chia]

timjame0719 Posted Yesterday, 09:26 AM

  Speaking of all this antifreeze stuff, I would still like to get out one or two more times. Two nights ago, it dropped down to 33 degrees, last night it went to 32, and tonight it's supposed to be 28 degrees. After tonight, the temp. isn't supposed to go lower than 40-45 at night. Should I be draining the block before these cooler nights to prevent damage or does it take numerous cold nights to freeze the water in the block in order to make it expand and cause damage?

frozen is frozen, ice does not get any harder or more expanded at -40 than it does at 28 degrees.

The short answer is yes the water should be drained.

[VinRLX]

Um, I think the colder and longer it is frozen, the more it expands and the more likely a problem. Dipping to 28° overnight with daytime temps in the 50s+ will not crack the block.

That said, I drain the water to err on the side of caution. On the DD it is maybe 15 minutes.

[Chia]

VinRLX Posted Today, 01:47 PM

Um, I think the colder and longer it is frozen, the more it expands and the more likely a problem. Dipping to 28° overnight with daytime temps in the 50s+ will not crack the block.

I actually looked this up before posting and ice does not expand more as it gets colder.

"When water freezes, it increases in volume about 9%. The ice then shrinks

as the temperature decreases. The shrinkage is tiny, about 0.4% going from

30F to -50F."

"The expansion upon freezing comes from the fact that water crystallizes into an open hexagonal form. This hexagonal lattice contains more space than the liquid state."

I am not saying the water in his engine will freeze with the temp dipping to 28 degrees. I am saying that if it does freeze it will xpand 9% and likely cause damage.

[VinRLX]

Your research does not include the time necessary to increase volume 9%

[Chia]

VinRLX Posted Today, 05:56 PM

  Your research does not include the time necessary to increase volume 9%

I don't know how long the volume of water in the engine would have to be exposed to 28 degree weather to freeze and cause damage. If the water is frozen, it has increased its volume by 9%.

I do know that water freezes below 32 degrees and if it was my boat I would be draining it or I would be worrying about it.

[NorCaliBu]

VinRLX's point is that with daytime temps in the mid-60's and the nightly low of 28*, the ambient temp wouldn't be below freezing for a long enough period of time for the engine block temp to drop below freezing which would be required for the trapped water to freeze.

That said, always safer to drain the block and easier to live where it doesn't freeze.

[martho]

I just worry about the shower/heater hoses. Sure, they are not a block, but still sucks to have your hoses/parts crack. An air compressor is a nice thing to have for that job with SunriseH2O's quick disconnects.

[NorCaliBu]

Very true Martho. I was speaking to the issues with the engine block. I never think about the heater / shower as my little Sporty doesn't have 'em. They would be really nice to have in January.

[Chia]

VinRLX's point is that with daytime temps in the mid-60's and the nightly low of 28*, the ambient temp wouldn't be below freezing for a long enough period of time for the engine block temp to drop below freezing which would be required for the trapped water to freeze.

That said, always safer to drain the block and easier to live where it doesn't freeze.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree.

[VinRLX]

VinRLX's point is that with daytime temps in the mid-60's and the nightly low of 28*, the ambient temp wouldn't be below freezing for a long enough period of time for the engine block temp to drop below freezing which would be required for the trapped water to freeze.

That said, always safer to drain the block and easier to live where it doesn't freeze.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First, I think it's easier to live where the water DOES freeze. In so many ways, for so many reasons. Come on out here next summer, we'll go skiing and debate over a beer.

Second, thanks for trying to clarify my point. Where's Doug or Skislut when I need them? Part of my point, and someone correct me if I'm way off here, is that water freezing is not an instant event but a gradual process. Is frozen water 9% larger upon initial freezing or does it take a period of time to reach this volume? Was it once 8%, 7%, 6%, etc prior to enlarging to 9%?

Again, I don't like the idea of worrying about it, so I watch the temps and drain accordingly. But a lot of guys will tell you that dipping below freezing overnight will not do diddly. Case in point, a guy up the lake has left his engine UNDRAINED over the same nights that I have DRAINED over a number of years. Guess what? I must be overly cautious cause he's had no problems.

[Gordo]

Freezing???? Does water really freeze at 32 degrees? The only ice we see down here is the stuff that forms in the ice makers (but, of course we have hurricanes)

[skislut]

Sorry Jack -- didn't mean to leave you hanging there, I was just enjoying your theories on dihydrogen oxide.

I can't see where temps in the high 20's for a couple of hours will do much. The engine is in an enclosed area with no air circulation (turnover) -- engine weighs 600# or so and even with the low specific heat of metal, it will take many hours for a temperature of 28 to drop that much mass from 50 degrees to 32.

Sorry I can't help you much with the volume expansion thing. As simple as it is, water is actually the most complex liquid when it comes to it's physical states -- there is an entire class devoted to it's study at some universities (I didn't sign up for that one). But I would think that it's volume expansion wouldn't be gradual, it would take place rather quickly as the crystal lattice forms. Generally when something freezes -- the crystal forms from a disruption and the solid goes radially. Think of those hand warmer packs with the little metal disk in them -- you spring the disk and watch the crystals grow.

I'd rather be cautious like you though in draining -- is the other guy on your lake using Mastercrafts or Nautiques?? We know they aren't too bright anyways.

[timjame0719]

Well, thanks for all the info. It was rather entertaining/educational if nothing else. I will be draining just to be safe as it doesn't take too long anyway. It will be fully winterized in two weeks and the rest of this week will be mid 60s in the day and mid to low 40s at night so I'll only have to drain it maybe twice. Thanks again to all.

[timjame0719]

P.S. When I get back over to the boat to drain it, I'll let you know if it did crack anything. I guess that would be a quick answer to the question if it did in fact expand over that short time when it reached 28* overnight!