***Before you change your fuel pump READ this**

[justgary]

You might grab a timing light and verify the base timing, then confirm that the timing advances with rpm.

[LakeLiving]

8 hours ago, justgary said:

Do you have 60 psi while the engine is bogging down? 

Yes.  Very steady 60psi at key, when I start moving, and when it bogs. 
ps. Fuel pump only makes the loud noise when it first pressurizes (at key) it's not perfect but quieter when idling.

[LakeLiving]

9 hours ago, justgary said:

You might grab a timing light and verify the base timing, then confirm that the timing advances with rpm.

Damn, you just reminded me of something. A local mechanic/friend suggested I change out the distributor rotor. For some reason he pulled out the whole shaft. He was careful to line up the timing marks (at the pulley) before pulling it out.  Then he had trouble putting it back in. So he hit the key very briefly and it slid into place. I didn't know if that was normal protocol but it did seem a bit odd to me.  Maybe that added to my problems?

Edited June 18, 2020 by LakeLiving

[justgary]

1 hour ago, LakeLiving said:

Damn, you just reminded me of something. A local mechanic/friend suggested I change out the distributor rotor. For some reason he pulled out the whole shaft. He was careful to line up the timing marks (at the pulley) before pulling it out.  Then he had trouble putting it back in. So he hit the key very briefly and it slid into place. I didn't know if that was normal protocol but it did seem a bit odd to me.  Maybe that added to my problems?

Uggggggh.  Find a new mechanic.  Sometimes the rotor will stick on the shaft, but the answer is to hitch up your skirt and snatch it off, not pull the distributor to futz with it.

The distributor shaft has exactly *one* correct position on the camshaft gear that is correct.  You can only really know that it is the correct one by using a timing light and setting the base timing.  That also implies that you have the ECM in service mode so that it isn't adding advance.

[LakeLiving]

On 6/18/2020 at 9:59 AM, justgary said:

Uggggggh.  Find a new mechanic.  

The distributor shaft has exactly *one* correct position on the camshaft gear that is correct.  You can only really know that it is the correct one by using a timing light and setting the base timing.  That also implies that you have the ECM in service mode so that it isn't adding advance.

Yes. Not calling that guy again.
*What does this mean? ... That also implies that you have the ECM in service mode so that it isn't adding advance.

OK. I loosened the distributor while my son drove the boat at 10mph. I turned distributor counter-clockwise just a touch and it wanted to stall.  I turned it clockwise and it allowed us to go 15mph turned it a bit more and was able to go 25mph before it bogged. So timing is definitely off and I'll be having my local mechanic stop by with his timing gun. Currently sitting at about 20 degrees to the right.  I estimate it was at 10 degrees before.

Then I connected external gas can again, via 1/2 in hose, after adjusting distributor. She got up to 25mph a bit quicker and then crept to 28mph. Fuel pump also stopped whining. So I'm going to replace the fuel line.  Between that and a proper timing adjustment I'm hoping all will be good.

Edited August 2, 2020 by LakeLiving
Update

[justgary]

You will need to put your ECM into "service mode" to set the base timing.  That may involve a jumper wire, or it may involve a DIACOM unit, depending on your ECM.

Don't run the engine hard again until you get the timing set.  You probably don't need a bent rod or blown piston.

[Merovingian]

Could it be that the fuel pump is overheating? I have a Response 340 Monsoon (same fuel pump location) and found that on hotter summer days it would start to run like you have described. To get going again I would hold ice against the fuel pump body for a few minutes, and the issue would go away once I started and got underway. Did you clear all the rubber out of the oil cooler from the failed impeller? 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Merovingian
typo

[LakeLiving]

@justgary Got it.  I read about ECM mode using a jumper in the service manual.  Will do.

@Merovingian Pump is cool.  Prob not the issue.  I did clear out the old bits of rubber but now that you mention it I'll get back in there to confirm.

[LakeLiving]

Update:  Had mechanic over to do the timing with his gun.  We followed owners manual and put her into Base Timing Mode with a jumper on the DLC. Adjusted the timing to spec.

Took her on the water to test under load: Same results ...   I can cruise between 20-25mph without backfire.  Starts and idles well.  Revs to 6k RPM smoothly in neutral.  Fuel pressure still looks good.

QUESTIONS

• Is it safe to use her as a pontoon boat (slow sunset cruises, etc.) till end of season or might that cause more damage?
  • I have friends on the lake that I can ski with.  My wife just wants the boat for social activities.
• Is it time to send it to a dealer for diagnostics and to have timing done with the Diacom?
• Should I pull my fuel injectors and send them to be cleaned/tested?  (I've run 1/2 tank w/ can of Seafoam)
• What else?

ps. Also confirmed plugs are gapped perfectly and wires are all in the proper order on the distributor cap.

pss. @kylegansel I changed the fuel line and the pump sounds MUCH better. unfortunately it didn't help performance.

Tagging @justgary because he's so damn helpful!  Thanks again.

 

Edited August 2, 2020 by LakeLiving

[justgary]

I'm running out of ideas.

Which MEFI or CEFI version of ECM does your engine have?

[Bozboat]

On 6/17/2020 at 9:16 PM, LakeLiving said:

Thanks for the help so far.  I was able to pry it out and install a new fuel pressure regulator.  I also changed the fuel filter today.  Tested the pressure and the gauge went to 60lbs and held for well over an hour.  So that definitely fixed my pressure issue.   BUT ... I took her out on the water tonight.  Still not going.  I'm able to get to 2k RPM, maybe 10mph, in gear (under load), which is an improvement but not much better. 

I tried running from a 1/2 fuel line connected to the filter.  Had a friend hold a 12oz funnel, connected to the other end, above the engine.  Filled funnel and the 5' of line, with gas to ensure there was no air in the line... it actually ran worse.  Should I just put the hose in a gas can?

Recap of Current Symptoms on my 2005 Indmar 5.7 (250 hours)

• All of this started this spring when I put it in.  3 time out (all short outings) I noticed the engine was very hot so I changed the impeller. It was completely shredded. I also put a new thermostat in and made sure I got all the chunks of rubber out of the hoses.
• Can rev engine fine in neutral but it bogs at 2K RPM under load.  Won't respond to more throttle.
• If I try to give it more throttle for more than 10 seconds it back fires.
• Both my old and new fuel pump look and sound EXACTLY like the one in @kylegansel's video above.
• Pulled the new plugs and they have lots carbon and they're wet with gas (this was before changing the fuel pressure regulator) 

What I've Tried So Far: 
New fuel pump, new fuel pressure regulator, new fuel filter, new plugs, new distributor cap and sensors.  Put 20 gallons fresh gas in and have used 1/4 of it. Confirmed no water in the tank.   All of the injectors sound like they're working. Also tried changing 3 sensors (MAP, TPS, AIC).

PS. The regulator I bought says "This is a mechanical regulator and the vacuum nipple is not used. Nipple is generally capped." I haven't capped it yet but not sure it matters. Revs fine without a cap and runs the same with my finger over the vacuum nipple.

Thanks for sticking with me here.  Only other thing I can think of is replacing the fuel line (or figure out how to run from a gas can (not sure I did it right).

What else can I try? 

Remind me what the fuel pressure readings are?

I think you may have multiple issues, fuel injectors need to be rebuilt and matched, fuel pump may not be hitting correct pressure, plugs are fouling, and timing is off.   Some years they put THIS coming off the tank, I remember something about that being a problem.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Bozboat

[LakeLiving]

@Bozboat

I checked the anti-siphon valve (check valve) when I changed the fuel line.  Seemed to ok but maybe worth replacing for $30.

Pressure:  Book says >50 is good.  I'm now getting consistent 60 psi and very slowly depressurizes over an hour down to about 15-20psi.  I pulled the plugs yesterday and confirmed the gapping.  They look good.

Is it safe to use her as a pontoon boat till end of season or might that cause more damage? I can send the fuel injectors away at some point for service.

@justgary I don't understand: "Which MEFI or CEFI version of ECM does your engine have?" How do I check this?

[Bozboat]

2 hours ago, LakeLiving said:

@Bozboat

I checked the anti-siphon valve (check valve) when I changed the fuel line.  Seemed to ok but maybe worth replacing for $30.

Pressure:  Book says >50 is good.  I'm now getting consistent 60 psi and very slowly depressurizes over an hour down to about 15-20psi.  I pulled the plugs yesterday and confirmed the gapping.  They look good.

Is it safe to use her as a pontoon boat till end of season or might that cause more damage? I can send the fuel injectors away at some point for service.

@justgary I don't understand: "Which MEFI or CEFI version of ECM does your engine have?" How do I check this?

Your asking if it is safe to use your boat as is, with fuel delivery problems, ignition problems,  and timing problems with the occasional backfire?

 I am going to go with a hard No. It is not safe for you, your passengers, or anyone nearby, and may likely damage what’s left of your boat.   

 

[LakeLiving]

42 minutes ago, Bozboat said:

 I am going to go with a hard No. It is not safe for you, your passengers, or anyone nearby, and may likely damage what’s left of your boat.   

 

Thank you.  I needed a good smack upside the head to keep me from doing anything stupid... beyond what I may have already done.

Happy Fathers Day!

I'll let everyone know what the Indmar Certified Mechanics say, if I ever get an apointment.

[Bozboat]

25 minutes ago, LakeLiving said:

Thank you.  I needed a good smack upside the head to keep me from doing anything stupid... beyond what I may have already done.

Happy Fathers Day!

I'll let everyone know what the Indmar Certified Mechanics say, if I ever get an apointment.

Happy Father’s Day to you as well.  I would sure like to know what you find out. 

[justgary]

I'm starting to think it's a bent pushrod or stuck valve or something. 

[kylegansel]

Wow!! Lots of great advice going on here.  Been busy and haven't been able to jump online for a while.  Here's where I'm at.

• The weekend after my original post the boat ran great.  I did absolutely nothing....  The boat ran great but the weather was cool so I was only out a few times.  
• The following weekend the boat wouldn't start when it was warm.  Always fired up when it was cooler especially in the mornings.  After I let it cool it fired right up.  The fuel pump would still occasionally sound like it was starving for more gas.  I put in some Lucas Fuel Injector cleaner and now have (4) cans (20) gallons of Rec 90 Ethanol Free gas in the boat.  I'm running the blower quite a bit before startup and after I shut her down.  She even sat in the sun for a good hour the one day while we swam and fired right up.  
• This past weekend she fire right up but I noticed quite a bit of exhaust stains on the back of the boat when I wiped her down.  I pulled a spark plug and there was a decent amount of carbon on the tip and the threads were a bit wet.  My mechanic friend said it sounds like the boat is running rich (too much fuel) and that can cause this.  He said it also sounds like air is also getting into the fuel line some how with the way my pump sounds.  I've noticed this when I put my fuel gauge on the shrader valve I don't always get a solid stream of gas.  I do get some air. 
• My neighbor that is dealing with a similar issue couldn't get his boat to start this past weekend.  The fuel pump was whining and the boat would not turn over.  He relieved pressure on the shrader valve and it started right up.....
• I have checked the fuel pressure numerous times and I'm right at spec with is 60 PSI for a 2005 Indmar 320 LCR Engine.

So with all of this; last night I jumped online and read a ton more posts.  I found one speaking about how the temp sensor can have effects on fuel delivery and possibly sending too much fuel.  Is this true?  At the end of last season I had a hard time getting the boat up to 160 degrees.  145 / 150 was the max.  I was winterizing the boat two weeks later and figured I'd check it out in the spring.  Since the beginning of the year I've been getting to operating temp no problem.  I do have a new thermostat sitting in the garage in case I need it.  

From reading some of the additional comments above I'm thinking of ordering a new temp sensor, replacing the thermostat, and then replacing the fuel pressure regulator.  My concern with just dropping the boat off at the marina is that the boat won't really throw a code so this is probably something I need to figure out.  Anything else I should try?  

Also, would someone be able to tell me the part numbers I need from Bakes to get this ordered?  Thanks for the help!!!

[LakeLiving]

On 6/24/2020 at 12:11 PM, kylegansel said:

Wow!! Lots of great advice going on here.  Been busy and haven't been able to jump online for a while.  Here's where I'm at.

• My concern with just dropping the boat off at the marina is that the boat won't really throw a code so this is probably something I need to figure out.  Anything else I should try?  

Also, would someone be able to tell me the part numbers I need from Bakes to get this ordered?  Thanks for the help!!!

I've tinkered with my boat for 3 weeks now.  I didn't drop it off for the same reason ... Plus didn't want to have the boat out of the water for 3 weeks.  Wishing I just dropped it off.

The regulator that I got for my 2005 Indmar 5.7:  https://www.bakesonline.com/fuel-pressure-regulator-4-bar-indmar.html

Edited August 2, 2020 by LakeLiving

[LakeLiving]

*UPDATE*  While waiting to get my boat in with the mechanic (3 weeks out) I sent my fuel injectors in to be tested/cleaned.  Just heard back that they were all operating at about 10% capacity.  Gummed up.  He was able to clean them up and retested.  He ran them at 4,500rpm for an hour and they seem to be back to 100%.  I'm assuming this will resolve most, if not all, of my issue.  

Q1:  I'm guessing I didn't put enough Sta-Bil in when I winterized it, or didn't run it through the engine long enough. Could that have done it?  Maybe in combination with having a bad batch of gas on my last fill of the 2019 summer?

Q2:  During the season I add Startron-Starbright to the tank with every fill up to protect from ethenol. Is that a good idea?  Could it have caused my fuel filters to gum up?  Maybe I shouldn't add it to my final fuel up and just add Seafoam or Sta-Bil instead?

Will put injectors back in later this week and let you all know if I'm back in action.

[justgary]

Just use non-ethanol gas if you can get it.  No need for additives. 

[kylegansel]

Just a quick update.  I've got 25 gallons of non-ethanol rec 90 fuel in the boat at this point.  Seems to be starting well and running pretty good.  I checked my plugs and they aren't too bad.  Good color over all. 

I did have an issue with turning the key and the boat not cranking.  I tightened up the wires on the starter and have been good so far.  We shall see if that problem occurs again.  Beyond that I did change the Engine Temp Sensor because it was cheap and easy.  Boat is warming up and coming up to temp as it should be.  I'm going to hold off on the Fuel Pressure Regulator for a bit and see how things go.  I have one arriving today anyway but I'm going to hold off. 

I'm going to continue with non-ethanol gas I think from here on out as long as the price isn't crazy.  We're actually considering a fuel tank for the back of the house and buying in bulk.  

[Bozboat]

23 minutes ago, kylegansel said:

Just a quick update.  I've got 25 gallons of non-ethanol rec 90 fuel in the boat at this point.  Seems to be starting well and running pretty good.  I checked my plugs and they aren't too bad.  Good color over all. 

I did have an issue with turning the key and the boat not cranking.  I tightened up the wires on the starter and have been good so far.  We shall see if that problem occurs again.  Beyond that I did change the Engine Temp Sensor because it was cheap and easy.  Boat is warming up and coming up to temp as it should be.  I'm going to hold off on the Fuel Pressure Regulator for a bit and see how things go.  I have one arriving today anyway but I'm going to hold off. 

I'm going to continue with non-ethanol gas I think from here on out as long as the price isn't crazy.  We're actually considering a fuel tank for the back of the house and buying in bulk.  

I know that there are several trains of thought on the pure gas debate.  I get the pure gas when I am in Arkansas, and maybe it is just that the air and water are cleaner and cooler in Arkansas than Texas, but my old boat runs better in Arkansas on pure gas than anywhere else on corn gas.  The exhaust also smell better.

[kylegansel]

That’s good to know!  I’m hoping this continue to prove well so we can enjoy the rest of the summer now. 

[kylegansel]

Quick question - I thought about cleaning the screen on the current Fuel Pressure Regulator.  I have an 2005 Indmar LCR 320.  Is it as simple are relieving the fuel pressure on the rail, removing the single bolt holding the clamp, and then just popping it out?  

[jamonson]

I've got a 1996 Sunsetter, Monson 320, similar symptoms. The pump looks different from the pictures I see on this thread. I just changed the fuel filter. Does my boat have the dreaded fuel screen too?