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fashionair30

hull?

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mrothwell
Is anyone getting any work done today?

Biggrin.gif

any what done? I'm just trying to keep up reading, it's still taking a lot of time.

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aneal000
My statement is ENTIRELY accurate.

Only if you take a non diamond DD and add NO WEIGHT, then take a diamond VD and add 2000 pounds. But what good is that comparison? Most people will do the same thing no matter what boat they have, if your going to add 2000 pounds your going to do it no matter what boat you have, or vise versa with no weight. Either case the DD non diamond boat will put out a better wake. I'd almost go so far as to say even a sportster - if it didn't sink! :)

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WakeGirl

I think that Tony is talking about equal weight vs. equal weight, & IME I've gotta agree with that. The wake hull is just better at it, regardless of the placement of the motor. With that said, I think that John is talking about the ability to hide weight - that's a different issue. Apples for apples with identical weighting configurations, the wake hull DD will outdo the Diamond hull v-drive. But as John puts it, you'll probably have bags on the floor.

John,

You were the one that brought up the whole Diamond hull/DD comparison. The boat that the OP should buy is hands down the VLX (cost not being a factor of course, if it is, then a DD Wakesetter/I-Ride would fit the bill nicely).

Edited by WakeGirl

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aneal000
A DD wake simply does not measure up to a Vdrive diamond. 

I was trying to be done with this thread, but this comment is about as inaccurate as anything I've seen on this site. You may have been in/behind two boats that this held true. But the reason is much deeper than your explaniation. The motor placement has little to ZERO effect on the wake - ie my 23 XTi and 23 LSV example - same hull motor in different position - weighted the same the results were the same: conclusion the wetted surface area was the same therefore the wake was the same. Motor placement is nothing more than weight placement. The hull design on the other hand greatly affects the wake.

Dude, of course the weight and location of the motor is the important thing, as opposed to "where" it is...duh.

Please explain your weighting methodology that led you to think that a DD and VD have the same wake. I'm talking BTTW weighting. There isn't even enough room in the Xti to hold the weight that the lsv will hide.

Theres a lot more to it than wetted surface. Also important is rear-bias. Thats why a i ride and vride throw entirely different wakes...rear-weight bias...diamond vdrives have it....DD's don't.

I've been accused of ownership goggles twice now...hello...our current boat is a diamond DD and it is AWFUL for wakeboarding.

So explain to me why the sunscape with the diamond throws such a different wake? OK, it's 6 inches longer (bad for wake size by teh way)...it's OK, you can admit it, the difference is that has rear-weight bias.

Peace

Ah, we're getting somewhere, you're asking valid questions! :)

Lets start out with general ideas, concepts if you will. Weight in the back (only) of a boat creates a steep, tall, and but soft wake. Tall and steep wakes usually have little thickenss to them and are easy to punch through. Weight in the front of a boat creates a long and rampy wake that is usually associated with being hard, but not always if the wake if foamy, but that's another story and we're not talking Tige's.

Ideal wake, and this is very misleading, because a lot of people get used to one thing and they adapt their style of riding to fit the inadequacies of their boat. But most advanced level riders like a wake that is big, in between super rampy and super steep - something with a nice transition, but very hard so you don't punch or edge through it on super hard cuts. To achieve this you need to weight a boat evenly. If you put weight in the rear you need to put weight in the front. If you use the wedge you need to add weight to the front. On a side note you hear a lot of people (anti malibu) talk about how bad the wake is and how using the wedge makes the wake so steep it's like hitting a wall - and they are right in many cases. If you ride behind an 03 VLX with factory ballast and wedge the wake is very steep, it's because they have: 1) V-drive (weight in the rear) 2) wedge 3) hard tanks in the rear, and only one little bag in the center of the boat to bring the front end down. The wake is very steep. But gotta give props to Bu, they figured it out and started adding front ballast tanks to the boats, or at least gave us the option! A lot of Bu owners don't know they need weight in the front, I can't tell you how many times I've heard the arguement - well we spend $40K+ on a wakeboard specific boat you'd expect it to have a decent wake stock - and it does, kinda, not really. Money is irrelevant, the point is the manufactures give us a good base to start with, but a few quick and easy additions turn the boat into a weapon! But using it stock is not doing yourself any favors, and a lot of people do this and a lot of people end up learning to wakeboard around a specific shape wake. That's why so many people have a hard time switching from one boat to another, because they get really used to riding "their" wake, which means they've built compensation into their riding to account for their wake. I'm digressing here. Next question.

Weighting of the Xti and the LSV. Here's your first problem - we're not concerned with hiding the weight. While some people have issues stepping over bags, or using lead a lot of other people don't. The fact is that both boats are built on the same 23' 100" beam hull. Therefore they have the ability to produce the same wake. I clearly said above that out of the box the LSV had a bigger wake - no issues there, but when they were weighted the same the wakes were the same. Oh, and btw, I used a lot of lead in the hull of the Xti - guess where? In the rear, around the propshaft and rudder - their is a lot of room there for a lot of lead - which makes the boat now sit similar to a LSV. But because I like an ideal wake I still added weight to the front of the boat as well. Lead there too. (Lets not start the lead, boat sinking, insurance thing, saftey, etc... this thread is already long enough.) But I'm with you, because I like to have things hidden and in their place. We used the boat to pull INT events, we were pulling outlaw riders on a private ski lake and loaded it with 14(maybe+) people and the wake was insane. The LSV took less people to get to the same point because of the extra factory ballast, not because it was a VD. Both boats weighted the same had the same wake.

"Theres a lot more to it than wetted surface. Also important is rear-bias. Thats why a i ride and vride throw entirely different wakes...rear-weight bias...diamond vdrives have it....DD's don't." -- Not for sure your question, but I think I covered it when I described weight position in the boat above. But again, when weighted equally VD and DD become irrelevant and the wetted surface area - hull design become the major factor in wake shape, size, and characteristic.

"So explain to me why the sunscape with the diamond throws such a different wake? OK, it's 6 inches longer (bad for wake size by teh way)...it's OK, you can admit it, the difference is that has rear-weight bias." Well, first off you need to define different, every boat in it's stock form will throw a different wake, I'll give you that, it is entirely because of the stock hull/weight combination. But different doesn't mean better or that it even has the capability to be better - just different. And IMHO, I think I explained why it's not capable of being better.

my finger tips are getting sore.

:)

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JohnDoe
My statement is ENTIRELY accurate.

Only if you take a non diamond DD and add NO WEIGHT, then take a diamond VD and add 2000 pounds. But what good is that comparison? Most people will do the same thing no matter what boat they have, if your going to add 2000 pounds your going to do it no matter what boat you have, or vise versa with no weight. Either case the DD non diamond boat will put out a better wake. I'd almost go so far as to say even a sportster - if it didn't sink! :)

Yeah right man. Last time we ran 2K in the sunscape the wake was waist high. Thats exactly what a stock i ride looks like. Crazy.gif

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aneal000
My statement is ENTIRELY accurate.

Only if you take a non diamond DD and add NO WEIGHT, then take a diamond VD and add 2000 pounds. But what good is that comparison? Most people will do the same thing no matter what boat they have, if your going to add 2000 pounds your going to do it no matter what boat you have, or vise versa with no weight. Either case the DD non diamond boat will put out a better wake. I'd almost go so far as to say even a sportster - if it didn't sink! :)

Yeah right man. Last time we ran 2K in the sunscape the wake was waist high. Thats exactly what a stock i ride looks like. Crazy.gif

I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

Do you really not understand what I'm saying here or are you just trying to be difficult? Your reading it backwards.

Cry.gif

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JohnDoe
My statement is ENTIRELY accurate.

Only if you take a non diamond DD and add NO WEIGHT, then take a diamond VD and add 2000 pounds. But what good is that comparison? Most people will do the same thing no matter what boat they have, if your going to add 2000 pounds your going to do it no matter what boat you have, or vise versa with no weight. Either case the DD non diamond boat will put out a better wake. I'd almost go so far as to say even a sportster - if it didn't sink! :)

Yeah right man. Last time we ran 2K in the sunscape the wake was waist high. Thats exactly what a stock i ride looks like. Crazy.gif

I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

Do you really not understand what I'm saying here or are you just trying to be difficult? Your reading it backwards.

Cry.gif

Worse than that, you're talking to someone as stubborn as you!

I understand completely what you're saying...I was being facetious.

I think our disagreement is stemming from something very basic. When I advocated for a Vdrive, no matter the hull, it was for the "whole" package...storage, rear-bias, buildability, shapeability, tailorability...everything that makes a Vdrive superior for wakeboarding. We have owned DD "wake" boats and Vdrive diamonds. For "wakeboarding"...which there is a lot more to than wake size...a Vdrive diamond is superior to a DD "wake". It just depends on what your idea of a fun day of wakeboarding is to you I guess. To me, a fun day of wakeboarding includes space, friends, and wakes. The DD simply can't compete on the same level.

Tony (I guess thats your name)..you made a good point a while back...wakes are subjective. Heck, opinions on wakes can be dictated by the board you're on. A LF fish is super fun on a steep wake. An old shapiro would suck. I gave OP my opinion and you jumped on my back saying I was leading him in the "clearly wrong direction". It's all in the interpretation...and in fun...peace

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WakeGirl

Okay to bring this subject back on topic, to the OP, the VLX or LSV on the Wake hull would be the best boat for you without considering cost. If cost is a factor, then a Wakesetter DD/I-Ride/Sunsetter LX/Sunkicker would be a good choice. The Diamond hull v-drive boats will have at least the same value as a VLX on the Wake hull (which is why I never understood why this was even brought up), so there's no point in going that route unless you have some interest in slalom.

Edited by WakeGirl

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JohnDoe
Hello, Im new here just courious how is the sv23 Diamond hull different than the wake hull and are all the hulls by malibu in the same design... Im trying to figure out what boat to get, Thanks!

Back to the OP, the difference is in the design of the chines down the length of the hull. So what? Well, reverse chines like on the diamond act to "lift" the hull out of the water, which creates a lighter feeling boat while driving and throws wakes that resemble that of a lighter boat. The "wake" hull's chines do not have such an angle, which allows the hull to "sag" more. Better for wakesports and barefooting, less good for slalom. Comparing apples to apples, a wake hull would be better for wakeboarding. However, my point is that a diamond hulled Vdrive still wakeboards better than a DD "wake" because it has a rear-weight bias and the chines do not compensate enough for that.

All the malibu hulls are "basically" the same design. Widths, deadrise angles, and chine shape do differentiate the boats, but they are the same basic shape.

BTW, don't let the discussions on here keep you from coming back! A lot of us have spent WAY too much time behind these boats and definitely spend WAY too much time arguing about our perceptions and favorites. Good luck with your search.

Yeah, I posted this 2 hours ago and somehow managed to talk diamonds again! Good talk TMC, Good talk.

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aneal000
Worse than that, you're talking to someone as stubborn as you!

Stubborn, who you calling subborn? Mad.gif

ROFL.gif

and yeah, I go by Tony

Rockon.gif (it's the closest thing I could find to a guy giving the peace sign)

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JohnDoe

I just hope you get to ride behind our sunscape one day so you can see what I'm talkin about!

Whistling.gif

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aneal000
I just hope you get to ride behind our sunscape one day so you can see what I'm talkin about!

Whistling.gif

Been there done that. Please refer to Page 2, Post #34, Paragraph 4.

But since I'm without a Bu at the moment I'm not real picky as to what I ride behind. Even been known to accept pulls behind Tige's. Cry.gif So if that's an offer I'll take you up on it anytime I'm in the, well he!! I don't know where you live.

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WakeGirl

Tony's an old pro at this stuff, probably ridden behind just about every hull Malibu ever made with multiple weight setups. If I were you John, I'd take his word on this one.

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JohnDoe

Yeah, but that post is only about your 23 foot wake hulls...

Where I'm from is a secret...but next time I'm passin through the lou, I'll holla

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aneal000
Where I'm from is a secret...but next time I'm passin through the lou, I'll holla

Is that you TR?

Naw, not enough google references.

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aneal000

Thanks tracie, just spent a good part of my life behind one or talking about em.

Hey John, I'll even show you were the "good" water is in STL! :)

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JohnDoe
Tony's an old pro at this stuff, probably ridden behind just about every hull Malibu ever made with multiple weight setups.  If I were you John, I'd take his word on this one.

Tracie, thanks for the advice, but I don't have to take his word on it when we have owned the boats personally. He may have a different take, which is fine. But I certainly never led anyone in the wrong direction (like I was accused of doing).

I guess the only way to settle this is with pics!

I'll guess I'll have to take out the suncape and my neighbors Iride and I'll have to post the pictures.

Starwars.gif

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aneal000
Yeah, but that post is only about your 23 foot wake hulls...

Actually the following comment is what I was referring to...

"I was able to spend a lot of time in an 02 Sunsetter LSV (Diamond Hull). We tried all sorts of weight configurations and were never able to get the wake even close to that of the same year wakesetter VLX (21' non diamond hull). Real world experience, apples to apples comparison the wakes didn't compare."

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aneal000
Tony's an old pro at this stuff, probably ridden behind just about every hull Malibu ever made with multiple weight setups.  If I were you John, I'd take his word on this one.

Tracie, thanks for the advice, but I don't have to take his word on it when we have owned the boats personally. He may have a different take, which is fine. But I certainly never led anyone in the wrong direction (like I was accused of doing).

I guess the only way to settle this is with pics!

I'll guess I'll have to take out the suncape and my neighbors Iride and I'll have to post the pictures.

Starwars.gif

Ah the joys of the internet. Sorry if my opinion came across a little strong, as it must of since you referrenced it about 8 times in various posts. But it was and still is my opinion. If a guy is looking for a wakeboard specific boat and anyone points him toward a diamond hull model is the obvious wrong direction. Sorry if that hurts your feelings or you disagree. Maybe I should of worded it kindly-er.

Hey I can just as easy take a picture of a VD Diamond hull making a bigger wake than and Iride. No arguements there - hopefully someone gets this!

Frustrated.gif

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JohnDoe
Yeah, but that post is only about your 23 foot wake hulls...

Actually the following comment is what I was referring to...

"I was able to spend a lot of time in an 02 Sunsetter LSV (Diamond Hull). We tried all sorts of weight configurations and were never able to get the wake even close to that of the same year wakesetter VLX (21' non diamond hull). Real world experience, apples to apples comparison the wakes didn't compare."

Thats not an apples to apples comparison, and you know it. I never said that any diamond hull could compete on the same level as a VLX. We both know that. Secondly, as we both know, it's dadgum hard to load an WSLSV to to compete with a VLX, let alone a diamond 23. I did not even catch you with that comparison, but it's not even close. Why not compare a 25 while you're at it, and then say it can't compete with the VLX?

The comparison was DD's to VD's, of similar lengths.

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JohnDoe
Tony's an old pro at this stuff, probably ridden behind just about every hull Malibu ever made with multiple weight setups.  If I were you John, I'd take his word on this one.

Tracie, thanks for the advice, but I don't have to take his word on it when we have owned the boats personally. He may have a different take, which is fine. But I certainly never led anyone in the wrong direction (like I was accused of doing).

I guess the only way to settle this is with pics!

I'll guess I'll have to take out the suncape and my neighbors Iride and I'll have to post the pictures.

Starwars.gif

Ah the joys of the internet. Sorry if my opinion came across a little strong, as it must of since you referrenced it about 8 times in various posts. But it was and still is my opinion. If a guy is looking for a wakeboard specific boat and anyone points him toward a diamond hull model is the obvious wrong direction. Sorry if that hurts your feelings or you disagree. Maybe I should of worded it kindly-er.

Hey I can just as easy take a picture of a VD Diamond hull making a bigger wake than and Iride. No arguements there - hopefully someone gets this!

Frustrated.gif

OKOKOKOKOK....my point is that if it is incorrect to point him in the direction of a diamond VD, then it is equally irresponsible to point him in the direction of a DD of any kind, because the VD wake is bigger and can be built bigger than a DD. I'm frankly really shocked at this discussion. There's no comparison which boat is better for this guy (or girl) if wakeboarding is what he's about. Any 21, 21.5, 23 VD is better than a DD.

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WakeGirl
Tony's an old pro at this stuff, probably ridden behind just about every hull Malibu ever made with multiple weight setups.  If I were you John, I'd take his word on this one.

Tracie, thanks for the advice, but I don't have to take his word on it when we have owned the boats personally. He may have a different take, which is fine. But I certainly never led anyone in the wrong direction (like I was accused of doing).

I guess the only way to settle this is with pics!

I'll guess I'll have to take out the suncape and my neighbors Iride and I'll have to post the pictures.

Starwars.gif

Whatever John. I'll just say this, I realize that you like to argue, it's in your nature. But the Diamond hull v-drive vs. DD Wake hull argument is absolutely irrelevant to this thread because of the cost of a Diamond hull v-drive vs. a Wake hull v-drive. If he can afford the Diamond hull v-drive, then he can afford the VLX which would suit him better. If he can't afford the VLX, then he can't afford the Diamond hull & should look at a Wake hull direct drive. Why argue over something that is completely irrelevant to the OP's question?

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aneal000
Yeah, but that post is only about your 23 foot wake hulls...

Actually the following comment is what I was referring to...

"I was able to spend a lot of time in an 02 Sunsetter LSV (Diamond Hull). We tried all sorts of weight configurations and were never able to get the wake even close to that of the same year wakesetter VLX (21' non diamond hull). Real world experience, apples to apples comparison the wakes didn't compare."

Thats not an apples to apples comparison, and you know it. I never said that any diamond hull could compete on the same level as a VLX. We both know that. Secondly, as we both know, it's dadgum hard to load an WSLSV to to compete with a VLX, let alone a diamond 23. I did not even catch you with that comparison, but it's not even close. Why not compare a 25 while you're at it, and then say it can't compete with the VLX?

The comparison was DD's to VD's, of similar lengths.

What????

How is that not apples to apples in your book? Now your starting to confuse me as to what you've been standing behind these last 4 pages.

You have told this guy to consider a Diamond hull V drive? Is an 02 LSV 23 not a diamond hulled V drive? So it's not fair to compare it to a VLX or the same year, how about the new LSV 23 non diamond? You keep missing the point about the DD and VD hulls being the same and having the same capabilities with regards to wake. You've made valid points about the other advantages of a v-drive, which I never argued. But you still never answered my question about an I/O???

And when did it become a dd to vd of similar lengths? That's a new one you sprung on us.

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Malibudude

My wake is bigger than yours Whistling.gif

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