HO Monza or Syndicate

[Malibudude]

... It's my understanding more Monza skiers at 34 will like the S1 better than the A1. ...

Maybe, maybe not.

I started demo'ing different skis a few weeks ago. So far I've been on a D3 Z7, Goode 9800SL and a A1. The S1 is next.

Based on all the marketing hype when I started the program I expected the A1 to be at the bottom of the list. Right now it's #1, by far. Came within 1 bouy of my PB on the first set.

The A1 is nothing like the Monza, which for me is a good thing. I do want to try the S1 prior to laying out the cash but the fact that I keep hearing that it skis more like the Monza (skidded turn) tells me the A1 will be my final choice.

Interesting as I've heard others state different findings, but we all know test test is the only way to know. We've been having a hard time getting ahold of a S1 for demo.

My personal best is on a S8, but what do I know. I would have tested the new D3 but I'm slightly larger than Terry is...lol

[22off]

If you plan on skiing in open water the Monza isn't the best ski nor the A1 or I'd imagine the S1, the S8 is a bit more forgiving in this arena.

Sorry to bring the older post up again, but I wonder if someone can explain why a ski like Monza is not great for the open water skiing. I ski about 50-50 course and open water and am also looking for a ski. I weigh 220 lbs and currently ski at 32-33mph at 15 and 22off. I was looking for a replacement to OBrien Verdict that cracked under inserts and am narrowing down my choices for the skis I can find in 69" length. Monza as I've been finding out may not be the right ski for me. I looked at D3 CX and it seems to max out for 205lbs skiers at 34 mph although it seems to be more suited to slower speed than D3 X5. Some others are too expensive and honestly I cannot try them all even if I had a month to look for the ski.

I understand that monza is designed for pros and 36mph, and seems to be harder to dial in the binding and fin placement but can someone briefly explain (i know this is hard as after so many years of reading ski descriptions they all sound the same) what does it mean that a ski is "less forgiving" or why a flat spot after the heel help stability in the acceleration or 4 stage rocker will enable the same ski to have different characteristics, or why a softer flex will allow skiers with improper technique more flexibility... Or what determines how will the ski hold the angle in the finish of the turn as it feels to me that if I were stronger, braver, or better skier, I could generate a lot more angle cross course than I do now at 15 or 22 off.

This may not belong to this post or category, but if someone can at least point me to the right direction or even another website, I'd greatly appreciate. I really never found one that explains it all to my engineering logic...

Thanks

Edited June 25, 2009 by 22off

[NorCaliBu]

...I wonder if someone can explain why a ski like the Monza is not great for the open water skiing.

That statment assumes that open water skiers aren't skiing on glass. The Monza is a stiff ski that does not like chop at all...but then, neither do I.

...what does it mean that a ski is "less forgiving"...

A stiffer ski requires that the skier be closer to the "proper" position over the ski.

...or why a flat spot after the heel help stability in the acceleration...

A "flat spot" provides a longer edge for the ski to grip the water with.

...why a softer flex will allow skiers with improper technique more flexibility...

Similar question to the "less forgiving" question. A softer ski can be more forgiving depending on what types of mistakes you are making. My System8 tried to kill me which is why I now ski a Monza. I prefer the stiffer ski. I need to figure out how to demo the A1, S1, and the new Monza...the dealer I used to demo from went belly up.

...what determines how well the ski will hold the angle in the finish of the turn as it feels to me that if I were stronger, braver, or better skier, I could generate a lot more angle cross course than I do now at 15 or 22 off.

The bevel of the edge supposedly determines how well a ski will hold angle. Gonna need to talk to someone smarter than me for that one (Shut Up Jack) because I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Edited June 25, 2009 by NorCaliBu

[skisix@38]

At the weight and speed you listed I would recommend finding something even larger than a 69" ski. If you can find a 70" or something a little wider than the monza types of skis, I think you will enjoy your time on the water a little more, and make it easier on your body to go through the course.

The Monza, as well as skis like it- "competitive slalom" skis were all developed to go fast, edge change instantly, and turn sharply. They accomplish that in different ways to suit different styles but that's what they are designed to do. If you dont' fall into all those categories then you will be fighting those characteristics while skiing. Being 220# and skiing at 32-33mph with a 69" ski you will experience mush more drag on the ski and the ski will stall easily when turning. There's not enough ski to maintain lift while trying to make a nice carving turn as a competition ski will bleed too much energy through that kind of turn and then it will drop behind you and you will never get the feeling of "being free from the boat".

Why are some skis more forgiving? Well, as in all design, some skis enhance some characteristics at the detriment of other characteristics. Typically, a stiffer ski with less rocker( meaning the ski lays flat on a level surface without the fin) will be very fast in a straight line, the downside is that those characteristics make it difficult to turn. So, a ski that's really fast cross course may be more difficult to turn. While a softer ski will turn more easily, yet not be so fast- when leaned on the softer ski wants to bend and keep bending which means more drag thru the water.

That's some brief explanation, hope it helps more than creates more questions in you mind. I have heard some good things about the Radar Carbon Senate and I think they sell that in a 70" too. Try something like that and see how you enjoy the ride. FWIW, don't give much credence to what stickers are on the ski if you enjoy the ride and ride quality you get from it- that's the important thing.

If you plan on skiing in open water the Monza isn't the best ski nor the A1 or I'd imagine the S1, the S8 is a bit more forgiving in this arena.

Sorry to bring the older post up again, but I wonder if someone can explain why a ski like Monza is not great for the open water skiing. I ski about 50-50 course and open water and am also looking for a ski. I weigh 220 lbs and currently ski at 32-33mph at 15 and 22off. I was looking for a replacement to OBrien Verdict that cracked under inserts and am narrowing down my choices for the skis I can find in 69" length. Monza as I've been finding out may not be the right ski for me. I looked at D3 CX and it seems to max out for 205lbs skiers at 34 mph although it seems to be more suited to slower speed than D3 X5. Some others are too expensive and honestly I cannot try them all even if I had a month to look for the ski.

I understand that monza is designed for pros and 36mph, and seems to be harder to dial in the binding and fin placement but can someone briefly explain (i know this is hard as after so many years of reading ski descriptions they all sound the same) what does it mean that a ski is "less forgiving" or why a flat spot after the heel help stability in the acceleration or 4 stage rocker will enable the same ski to have different characteristics, or why a softer flex will allow skiers with improper technique more flexibility... Or what determines how will the ski hold the angle in the finish of the turn as it feels to me that if I were stronger, braver, or better skier, I could generate a lot more angle cross course than I do now at 15 or 22 off.

This may not belong to this post or category, but if someone can at least point me to the right direction or even another website, I'd greatly appreciate. I really never found one that explains it all to my engineering logic...

Thanks

[22off]

Hi thanks, lots of good info here. Where I'm as confused as always:

A stiffer ski requires that the skier be closer to the "proper" position over the ski.

Similar question to the "less forgiving" question. A softer ski can be more forgiving depending on what types of mistakes you are making. My System8 tried to kill me which is why I now ski a Monza. I prefer the stiffer ski. I need to figure out how to demo the A1, S1, and the new Monza...the dealer I used to demo from went belly up.

How is this different for any other ski? Knees bent with weight around the center of the ski and rope at the hips with the shoulders back should be the right position regardless if you ski a paddle or a high end ski... What can a more forgiving ski allow me to? Ride longer in my incorrect stance to get enough speed to fall of the 2nd wake instead at the ball when I'm not moving that fast?

A "flat spot" provides a longer edge for the ski to grip the water with.

Can I visualize this as having a really large rocker, let's say like the base of a rocking chair, to ski on. Without flat spot, this would not hold the angle across the wakes, but would be like riding on an arrow tip and follow straight where the boat is going, not across the wakes?

The bevel of the edge supposedly determines how well a ski will hold angle. Gonna need to talk to someone smarter than me for that one (Shut Up Jack) because I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Bevels are another mystery to me to visualize. Can I look at this as riding a stiff flat board and depending at what angle against the water surface I hold it at, I would get the appropriate "lift" in which case I lose the surface area in the water.

I appreciate your help and it would be nice if Jack stayed at Holiday Inn to help out some more. Hope you are understanding what kind of ski theory I am looking for... I think we are on the right track, wish there is a website to have all this covered somewhere

[UWSkier]

See if you can find a 70" Monza or System 8. I have been on a 70" Monza for a couple years and I like it. I'm 6'5" and 240 this year and it feels better than ever, although I never ski slower than 34 MPH. These skis really really love speed and shorter line lengths. At 22 off and 34 MPH, I experience what SkiSix is talking about above. It feels like the ski is sluggish and doesn't want to generate any speed/angle. Dropping to 28 off makes a dramatic difference in how the ski feels.

[22off]

skisix@38, thx for good explanantion.

I agree with the braking free from the boat comment for my weight, as I really don't enjoy skiing anything slower than 32mph anymore. I can feel the drag after I change edge and I feel my stance is pretty decent (I do not ride the tail of the ski and fin and bindings are set up as good as they can). I have noticed that with the ski I have now, my offside turns (1-3-5) feel a lot smoother as I carry much more speed across the wakes coming from my onside. Not staying on the edge as much on the offside really messes up with my onside turns (2-4-6) as most of the time the turn itself will be at the slower speed and the ski does drag more and sometimes stops more than I want to. More speed is always an option but as I get ready (I did not appreciate bruised ribs last year)

When you say fast in a straight line - is that straight line while cutting AND straight on the water (going at the buoy), or just the former?

It made sense to me comparing stiff and soft ski in turn, however, still find confusing that softer ski bending when leaned on creates more drag but at the same time turns better - shouldn't more turn create better angle at which point the cross speed component is greater, therefore offsetting the drag? Ahh, need to go out and ski

I know I am overanalyzing it, but I tend to do things better if I completely understand the physics of them. I will look for the Senate, at the same time, how about System 8, that sounds like another one in 70" I may try that is a softer version of the pro ski. The same with D3 custom X although 69" is max and the max weight is 215 on it (I do like D3skis website, lots of factory fin settings available as a starting point). Can anyone comment on them?

Appreciate your time,

Ski well

At the weight and speed you listed I would recommend finding something even larger than a 69" ski. If you can find a 70" or something a little wider than the monza types of skis, I think you will enjoy your time on the water a little more, and make it easier on your body to go through the course.

The Monza, as well as skis like it- "competitive slalom" skis were all developed to go fast, edge change instantly, and turn sharply. They accomplish that in different ways to suit different styles but that's what they are designed to do. If you dont' fall into all those categories then you will be fighting those characteristics while skiing. Being 220# and skiing at 32-33mph with a 69" ski you will experience mush more drag on the ski and the ski will stall easily when turning. There's not enough ski to maintain lift while trying to make a nice carving turn as a competition ski will bleed too much energy through that kind of turn and then it will drop behind you and you will never get the feeling of "being free from the boat".

Why are some skis more forgiving? Well, as in all design, some skis enhance some characteristics at the detriment of other characteristics. Typically, a stiffer ski with less rocker( meaning the ski lays flat on a level surface without the fin) will be very fast in a straight line, the downside is that those characteristics make it difficult to turn. So, a ski that's really fast cross course may be more difficult to turn. While a softer ski will turn more easily, yet not be so fast- when leaned on the softer ski wants to bend and keep bending which means more drag thru the water.

That's some brief explanation, hope it helps more than creates more questions in you mind. I have heard some good things about the Radar Carbon Senate and I think they sell that in a 70" too. Try something like that and see how you enjoy the ride. FWIW, don't give much credence to what stickers are on the ski if you enjoy the ride and ride quality you get from it- that's the important thing.

[22off]

I was just asking about system 8 I'll try to give it a shot. I did not know Monza came in 70"?

Thanks

See if you can find a 70" Monza or System 8. I have been on a 70" Monza for a couple years and I like it. I'm 6'5" and 240 this year and it feels better than ever, although I never ski slower than 34 MPH. These skis really really love speed and shorter line lengths. At 22 off and 34 MPH, I experience what SkiSix is talking about above. It feels like the ski is sluggish and doesn't want to generate any speed/angle. Dropping to 28 off makes a dramatic difference in how the ski feels.

[UWSkier]

I was just asking about system 8 I'll try to give it a shot. I did not know Monza came in 70"?

Thanks

See if you can find a 70" Monza or System 8. I have been on a 70" Monza for a couple years and I like it. I'm 6'5" and 240 this year and it feels better than ever, although I never ski slower than 34 MPH. These skis really really love speed and shorter line lengths. At 22 off and 34 MPH, I experience what SkiSix is talking about above. It feels like the ski is sluggish and doesn't want to generate any speed/angle. Dropping to 28 off makes a dramatic difference in how the ski feels.

Pretty sure it only came in a 70 in '05 and maybe '06.

[skisix@38]

22,

If you keep your core tight and resist the load of the rope from pulling your hands and arms away from your body all the way into the white water of the second wake, I promise you won't get bruised ribs from crashes due to generating speed.....

Fast in a straight line between the buoy you just finished turning and the next one you want to arrive at....

You sound technical in nature so let me describe a different analogy for a soft ski- think of wing loading of a very large plane(777), when you sit over the wing and are watching it flex as the air passes over it- it doesn't flex in a straight line does it? It flexes in more of a parabolic nature with more distance being travelled at the wing tip then there is right by the wing box. So, now if you were to look at the entire plane from behind you can imagine seeing a bow shape made from the wings. Now, with that imagine in mind replace the fueslage of the plane with a skier standing on a ski going thru the water- it's a very similar shape. The flex will be greater at the ends of the ski rather then the section right under the boots. The more the ski flexes the less effecient that shape is at transferring load into forward energy. Some of the load energy from the boat goes into flexing the tip and tail of the ski, so, it follows that the softer the ski the less effecient it will be in getting cross course.

Most any ski that's 70" will support you better and it will be your preference as to what type of ride suits you. Try some skis and see what you like, when you find a ride you like-BUY IT, don't go back to the pro-shop and take a new one off the rack, buy the one you rode and liked! The S8, the Carbon senate, anything that D3 makes in that size... Find which one you like the most.

skisix@38, thx for good explanantion.

I agree with the braking free from the boat comment for my weight, as I really don't enjoy skiing anything slower than 32mph anymore. I can feel the drag after I change edge and I feel my stance is pretty decent (I do not ride the tail of the ski and fin and bindings are set up as good as they can). I have noticed that with the ski I have now, my offside turns (1-3-5) feel a lot smoother as I carry much more speed across the wakes coming from my onside. Not staying on the edge as much on the offside really messes up with my onside turns (2-4-6) as most of the time the turn itself will be at the slower speed and the ski does drag more and sometimes stops more than I want to. More speed is always an option but as I get ready (I did not appreciate bruised ribs last year)

When you say fast in a straight line - is that straight line while cutting AND straight on the water (going at the buoy), or just the former?

It made sense to me comparing stiff and soft ski in turn, however, still find confusing that softer ski bending when leaned on creates more drag but at the same time turns better - shouldn't more turn create better angle at which point the cross speed component is greater, therefore offsetting the drag? Ahh, need to go out and ski

I know I am overanalyzing it, but I tend to do things better if I completely understand the physics of them. I will look for the Senate, at the same time, how about System 8, that sounds like another one in 70" I may try that is a softer version of the pro ski. The same with D3 custom X although 69" is max and the max weight is 215 on it (I do like D3skis website, lots of factory fin settings available as a starting point). Can anyone comment on them?

Appreciate your time,

Ski well

At the weight and speed you listed I would recommend finding something even larger than a 69" ski. If you can find a 70" or something a little wider than the monza types of skis, I think you will enjoy your time on the water a little more, and make it easier on your body to go through the course.

The Monza, as well as skis like it- "competitive slalom" skis were all developed to go fast, edge change instantly, and turn sharply. They accomplish that in different ways to suit different styles but that's what they are designed to do. If you dont' fall into all those categories then you will be fighting those characteristics while skiing. Being 220# and skiing at 32-33mph with a 69" ski you will experience mush more drag on the ski and the ski will stall easily when turning. There's not enough ski to maintain lift while trying to make a nice carving turn as a competition ski will bleed too much energy through that kind of turn and then it will drop behind you and you will never get the feeling of "being free from the boat".

Why are some skis more forgiving? Well, as in all design, some skis enhance some characteristics at the detriment of other characteristics. Typically, a stiffer ski with less rocker( meaning the ski lays flat on a level surface without the fin) will be very fast in a straight line, the downside is that those characteristics make it difficult to turn. So, a ski that's really fast cross course may be more difficult to turn. While a softer ski will turn more easily, yet not be so fast- when leaned on the softer ski wants to bend and keep bending which means more drag thru the water.

That's some brief explanation, hope it helps more than creates more questions in you mind. I have heard some good things about the Radar Carbon Senate and I think they sell that in a 70" too. Try something like that and see how you enjoy the ride. FWIW, don't give much credence to what stickers are on the ski if you enjoy the ride and ride quality you get from it- that's the important thing.

[22off]

Crashed when I caught the tip off of the second wake, made a flip over my head and knocked my wind out for a minute... still remember it but not where my handle was

OK thx for being technical it helps, I got the flex part and lower efficiency and wish you have analogies for the others. Like where then the rocker comes into play - always thought rocker is what turns the ski as it gets it on the leading edge, not the stiffness? The same I said for bevels in previous post, they should matter for edging too not just the stiffness. Full tunnel as you mentioned in an earlier post should allow fast edge change but also how the ski sits in the water during wake cross? Is that why Monza is "hunting" for the edge? This said, I am back to my original post why I get confused when they describe a ski as 4-stage-rocker or huge flat spot behind a heel, etc as each one should be a compromise but still their ski is competition model...

One problem I have with trying skis is that pro-shops in general don't stock so many longer skis so I haven't had much luck testing skis. Would be nice to have a few to go through and maybe would help me understand the physics of skiing and how the ski grips but not drags, better

Thanx for your patience

22,

If you keep your core tight and resist the load of the rope from pulling your hands and arms away from your body all the way into the white water of the second wake, I promise you won't get bruised ribs from crashes due to generating speed.....

Fast in a straight line between the buoy you just finished turning and the next one you want to arrive at....

You sound technical in nature so let me describe a different analogy for a soft ski- think of wing loading of a very large plane(777), when you sit over the wing and are watching it flex as the air passes over it- it doesn't flex in a straight line does it? It flexes in more of a parabolic nature with more distance being travelled at the wing tip then there is right by the wing box. So, now if you were to look at the entire plane from behind you can imagine seeing a bow shape made from the wings. Now, with that imagine in mind replace the fueslage of the plane with a skier standing on a ski going thru the water- it's a very similar shape. The flex will be greater at the ends of the ski rather then the section right under the boots. The more the ski flexes the less effecient that shape is at transferring load into forward energy. Some of the load energy from the boat goes into flexing the tip and tail of the ski, so, it follows that the softer the ski the less effecient it will be in getting cross course.

Most any ski that's 70" will support you better and it will be your preference as to what type of ride suits you. Try some skis and see what you like, when you find a ride you like-BUY IT, don't go back to the pro-shop and take a new one off the rack, buy the one you rode and liked! The S8, the Carbon senate, anything that D3 makes in that size... Find which one you like the most.

[skisix@38]

OK, let me see if I can explain this without hacking it and getting critized by the masses....

Rocker - this is the nature bend inparted into the ski when in a resting state. Generally, more bend "rocker" the easier it is to turn. This comes from the natural bend coming off the second wake. As the ski comes off the second wake and starts to settle into the water, it will start to slow, as it slows the ski will ride deeper and deeper in the water. As the water starts to climb up the long axis on the ski the bend, "rocker" will start to make the ski turn back in due to the tip of the ski not going in the same direction as the tail. After the ski starts to turn due to the rocker the Flex starts to come in as now that the tip and tail aren't going the same direction the ski tip starts to load and flexes under the load.

The rocker and how it blends with the shape of the ski is what makes a ski intitiate the turn easily or want to stay on edge. Most skis donn't have a lot of shovel in the tail section so that when it comes off the second wake the ski can ride neutral in the water- this allows for the fast edge change you mentioned. A lot of shovel in this area will make it difficult to roll from side to side- look at a SixAM for an example here- that ski was great at staying on edge but didn't want to roll to the other edge very easily.

Bevels - Think of bevels like a gripping surface, the sharper the edge/bevel of the ski the more grip or the more of a keel the ski will have to leverage against. This is good as long as you are going in the direction you want because the harder the bevel the harder it is to change it's direction. HO's typically have had a flat on their bevels this helps the ski stay on the edge through the turn. Whereas a soft bevel is a little more slippery through the water- so if you are not going the right direction, you can more easily change it. This is the scenerio- you finish a turn and you start to leverage to the other side: with a sharp bevel and the right angle off the ball you will have a easy time of resisting the boat to the other side. With a sharp bevel and not the right angle off the ball, it's harder to change your direction to get more angle. With a soft bevel( think D3 skis) the ski can slip more off the ball and so can more easily change directions. This also explains why some skis are more "forgiving" then others.

It's taken my years to get the limited understanding I have.... be patient and you'll understand in time too.

Crashed when I caught the tip off of the second wake, made a flip over my head and knocked my wind out for a minute... still remember it but not where my handle was

OK thx for being technical it helps, I got the flex part and lower efficiency and wish you have analogies for the others. Like where then the rocker comes into play - always thought rocker is what turns the ski as it gets it on the leading edge, not the stiffness? The same I said for bevels in previous post, they should matter for edging too not just the stiffness. Full tunnel as you mentioned in an earlier post should allow fast edge change but also how the ski sits in the water during wake cross? Is that why Monza is "hunting" for the edge? This said, I am back to my original post why I get confused when they describe a ski as 4-stage-rocker or huge flat spot behind a heel, etc as each one should be a compromise but still their ski is competition model...

One problem I have with trying skis is that pro-shops in general don't stock so many longer skis so I haven't had much luck testing skis. Would be nice to have a few to go through and maybe would help me understand the physics of skiing and how the ski grips but not drags, better

Thanx for your patience

[corey]

Hey guys, not trying to thread jack here but MWMC has the Wade Cox clinic dates dialed in (and mostly sold) we have one opening left for Wednesday July 22nd. http://www.waterskis.com/Waterski-Clinic-w...ic_wade_cox.htm

We are still working on getting Andy in town. No firm dates yet but I'll keep you posted if we can make this happen!

[22off]

I understood the rocker function, thanks. Can you pls try to explain once again what do you mean by shovel of the tail? I understood that to be the full tunnel that extends to the tail and as such helping the edge change, not preventing it...

Most skis donn't have a lot of shovel in the tail section so that when it comes off the second wake the ski can ride neutral in the water- this allows for the fast edge change you mentioned. A lot of shovel in this area will make it difficult to roll from side to side- look at a SixAM for an example here- that ski was great at staying on edge but didn't want to roll to the other edge very easily.

One thing with bevels and a kiel analogy, would it be right to say that sharper bevel makes the ski roll on edge easier as a deep V kiel makes it easier to rock the boat?

Bevels - Think of bevels like a gripping surface, the sharper the edge/bevel of the ski the more grip or the more of a keel the ski will have to leverage against. This also explains why some skis are more "forgiving" then others.

Enjoyed reading your explanations. According to your avatar pic, your understanding might be limiting but that turn looks incredible.Would like to get there at one point.

It's taken my years to get the limited understanding I have.... be patient and you'll understand in time too.

In addition, can you pls try to explain how do fin and tail move during the turn at the ball? Although I can't do that, I hear that there are skis that slide the tail through the turn (Monza being one of them). How can this happen so the ski stays stable?... Also regarding the fin is the little "wing" which acts as a brake, so I then do not understand why do I need it on my slower speeds. And, my fin is upside down compared to my friends ski. Which side is right???

Sorry for delay. I will be faster responding the rest of the week and I am almost running out of questions. Thanks for your time

Igor

[skisix@38]

The shovel is the shape of the bottom of the ski- it can be a full concave( all the way to the edges) or not a full concave ( think SixAM) These shapes are always reduced when they get closer to the tail of the ski so that the tail is nearly a flat bottom. This allows the ski to roll from side to side more easily when ridden in that part( should only be for a instant as you edge change). The full concave is typically easier to change edges because one edge or the other is riding deeper in the water and the ski wants to go that way. In contrast to that, a ski that doesn't have a full concave shape on the bottom is typically thought of as a more stable to ride ski because the flats on the side allow the ski to go flat and straight.

The sharper bevels don't really help the ski to roll on edge more easily. You won't be changing edges on the front of the ski, only on the back part of the ski and the edge there are always much softer-more rounded. From the front of the front boot and forward is where you will find sharper edges. Their design is to grip to water to start the turn and then privide a little lift through the turn so the tip of the ski doesn't dive.

Fin and wing- they don't move through the turn but they can slide a little as a skier finishes the turn. The slide because the weight on the ski is on the front and that un tracks the fin, similar to the way the tournament boat spins around when you chop throttle and turn the wheel hard. This doesn't start to occur until shorter line lengths and fast boat speeds, as to do this the ski has to be going fast enough to support the skiers weight distribution being forward while not sinking to be able to un-track the fin slightly. The wing, you said brake, really isn't there to slow the ski down. The wing was placed there to keep some extra force on the tail to keep the tail in the water when the above condition applies( skier being forward and going fast while turning). The wing helps to provide a little down force to the tail in that situation. If you are skiing at slower speeds and longer line lengths you don't NEED a wing. If you choose to have a wing on your ski the wing should be installed with the wing side towards the bottom of the fin, or furthest away from the ski.

I understood the rocker function, thanks. Can you pls try to explain once again what do you mean by shovel of the tail? I understood that to be the full tunnel that extends to the tail and as such helping the edge change, not preventing it...

Most skis donn't have a lot of shovel in the tail section so that when it comes off the second wake the ski can ride neutral in the water- this allows for the fast edge change you mentioned. A lot of shovel in this area will make it difficult to roll from side to side- look at a SixAM for an example here- that ski was great at staying on edge but didn't want to roll to the other edge very easily.

One thing with bevels and a kiel analogy, would it be right to say that sharper bevel makes the ski roll on edge easier as a deep V kiel makes it easier to rock the boat?

Bevels - Think of bevels like a gripping surface, the sharper the edge/bevel of the ski the more grip or the more of a keel the ski will have to leverage against. This also explains why some skis are more "forgiving" then others.

Enjoyed reading your explanations. According to your avatar pic, your understanding might be limiting but that turn looks incredible.Would like to get there at one point.

It's taken my years to get the limited understanding I have.... be patient and you'll understand in time too.

In addition, can you pls try to explain how do fin and tail move during the turn at the ball? Although I can't do that, I hear that there are skis that slide the tail through the turn (Monza being one of them). How can this happen so the ski stays stable?... Also regarding the fin is the little "wing" which acts as a brake, so I then do not understand why do I need it on my slower speeds. And, my fin is upside down compared to my friends ski. Which side is right???

Sorry for delay. I will be faster responding the rest of the week and I am almost running out of questions. Thanks for your time

Igor

[22off]

This allows the ski to roll from side to side more easily when ridden in that part( should only be for a instant as you edge change).

This sounds like that during edge change release the ski should "pop" out of the water and then land on tail first then roll over? I try to make that more of the swing motion. Maybe I am not letting ski enough ahead of me?

The sharper bevels don't really help the ski to roll on edge more easily. You won't be changing edges on the front of the ski, only on the back part of the ski and the edge there are always much softer-more rounded. From the front of the front boot and forward is where you will find sharper edges. Their design is to grip to water to start the turn and then privide a little lift through the turn so the tip of the ski doesn't dive.

OK this is consistent with previous remark, I get it now. The rounder edge in the back allows the ski to keep the outbound direction instead of turning the tail of the ski immediately.

( skier being forward and going fast while turning). The wing helps to provide a little down force to the tail in that situation.

Here is where I am confused with the wing, as in this moment the ski is rolled on edge, right? If it were flat on the water, I can see how it would keep the ski in the water, but when turning, where is the force coming that want to blow the fin out of the water? This is I think my big puzzle as if the ski is sideways, I do not see what causes the blowout and how does the wing help that...

If you are skiing at slower speeds and longer line lengths you don't NEED a wing. If you choose to have a wing on your ski the wing should be installed with the wing side towards the bottom of the fin, or furthest away from the ski.

Is this for slower speed or if used, the wing should be towards the bottom of the fin? Mine is there anyway

At this point the only thing I left out of the discussion is my binding placement - I am really tall and find that front all the way fwd and rear all the way back allow me to have pretty even turns on both sides. I noticed the way my ski's rocker is, the heel of my rear foot (left) is past the flat spot of the middle part of the ski. I am struggling a bit with my onside turn as I said before as many times the ski will just sink in the apex of the turn. One culprit here can be the fact that I may need more speed or occasionally the offside pull is not as strong or as long, so the speed suffers. Or maybe my edge chenge is incorrect as I asked above... Some folks I ski with really emphasize that the feet should be as close together as possible but then again I am foot and a half taller than them (I am 7'1" tall) and I tried all the possible binding placements with this one being by far the smoothest for me.

Sorry I turned this into a pesonalized ski tutorial, but it really helps me get the grasp on it and hopefully someone else will find all this useful too. Your help is grealy appreciated. Thanks

Ski well

I

[Russ/Nebraska]

I have now skied both the A1 and the Monza. I love the A1 when free skiing but when I get in the course if I do come up a bit late, I find it a bit difficult to force the ski to turn when I want to. I am sure it is my position on the ski but the Monza just works better for me. So I do have a 67.5" A1 for sale if anyone is interested. It is still in perfect condition with only about 10 sets on it.

[Russ/Nebraska]

Did you ever get sell you 67.5" A1? If so, cool. If not, I may be interested. Does it have binding? If so, what are they? Size? How much are you asking for it? Can you send me pictures?

[thealy]

So to re-open this thread. Does anyone have experiance with the S1. I am thinking of selling my 07 Monza and going with the S1. Pro/Cons? Thanks.

[UWSkier]

I've heard the S1 rides similarly to the Monza, at least compared with the A1. Personally, I'd try the A1 unless you never ski 36. I made the switch from Monza to A1 at the end of this season and wish I had sooner.

[Toby]

i would hold out a little. the A1 is becoming the A2 and will be released soon. Not sure what plans are for the S1. The monza is a great ski.. for its time. things have moved on. i did after 3 years on it and have never looked back.

[thealy]

i would hold out a little. the A1 is becoming the A2 and will be released soon. Not sure what plans are for the S1. The monza is a great ski.. for its time. things have moved on. i did after 3 years on it and have never looked back.

Thanks for the heads up. The A2 sounds very promissing.

[Catfish]

I never skied the Monza, but I went from the Phantom to the S1 and really like it. It's faster, a little easier to get up on and it tends to stay down more on wake crossings (I tend to ski too far back). It took a few sets to really get used to it because I tended to over ski it. There are also some great deals out there on them right now.

Also take a look at the Radar Strada. I have 4 neighbors who have all switched to it and rave about it. Two of them are a man and wife who routinely ski into 39-1/2 off. One of the others was a "Goode" guy forever and tried several skis including the A1 and Prophecy.

Good luck.

[skisix@38]

The S1 is a easy ski to ride and suits a lot of different skiing styles. All the rocker stages, 5 I think, make the ski alittle finicky to set up but, once the set up is found that you like -it's not very sensetive to water temp changes. I ride the S1 and have for a year now, no signs of breakdown or softening. I have ridden a Strada, 9800, 9900 all jsut recently and came to the conclusion that the skis aren't going to help me improve- it's squarely on me. The one thing that the 9900, 9800, and strada do a little better then the S1 is cast out after the second wake and those skis all settle into the water a little more.

They are all very capable skis and they all suit a little different styles- you have to ride them to see which ski plays to your weaknesses and caters to your strengths.