Stock Ballast Pumps

[Tao of Wake]

Well, I visited my Bu this past weekend, and I just don't think there is enough room for 2 pumps in the bilge area. At least, there isn't enough room for me to get in there to install everything! A more experienced boat tech could probably do this easily, but I just don't think I could without a lot of trouble. The port side of the bilge area has the port hard tank fill pump, depth finder, paddle wheel for speedo, and further back, the raw water intake for the engine. The starboard side has the center and starboard fill pumps on a tee and the drain. There just wasn't anywhere where I could see to fit the new pumps. Therefore, I have revised my design once again. Here is a summary:

- The fill pump will just be plumbed to the bag and hard wired with a switch (see picture below) connected in-line. When I fill one of the bags at the beginning of a session, I will just open the hatch, toss the pump over the side and press the switch to start the pump. Once full, I will just pull the pump up, coil up the tubing on top of the bag and put the pump on top. I will only have to do this once at the beginning of each surf session.

- Each pair of pumps connected to each bag ("transfer" & "drain") will be hard wired to a on-off-on switch on the dash: Port side drain pump to port drain switch; starboard drain pump to starboard drain switch; port "transfer" pump to starboard fill switch; starboard "transfer" pump to port fill switch.

- When I switch sides for surfing, I will just flip a switch on the dash to turn on the "transfer" pump connected to the full bag to move the water from one bag to the other.

- When the session is done, and I need to drain the bag that is full, I will just flip the switch on the dash to start the drain pump.

- I will drill 2 new 1" thru hulls on the side of the boat for the drain lines

This is all automatic except for having to fill the bag at the beginning of the session. But it will be extremely fast as I will be able to fill both the hard tank and bag on the surf side. Fill time should be about 5 minutes, not counting the time it will take to open the hatch, put the pump over the side and press the switch. It's as automatic as I could figure out without having to drill a new thru hull in the bottom and mount the fill pumps; and be extremely fast to fill. I know I could put diverter valves on the stock fill pumps, but by my calculations, this would take 15-20 minutes to fill the hard tank and bag on one side. When we go out, we really don't want to wait that long to get going. We don't have a no-wake zone, and there is a drop-off right behind the hoist, so when we pull away from the dock, we can be surfing or wakeboarding in minutes. We just need a few minutes to get the boat warmed up. So my requirements for the solution are to be easy to operate, fast, relatively inexpensive, and somewhat easy to install. I think I have hit all of these with this solution.

I decided to drill the new drain thru hulls so that I wouldn't have to open the hatch again and put a hose over the side to drain the bag. When we are done for a session, I would like to just hit the switch and drive back to the dock.

Questions:

- Do the Tsunami 1200 pumps allow water to flow through them when they are off? In both directions? If so, I will need to put a valve on the fill pump line so that when I am finished filling, I can close this off. Otherwise, water will just start flowing out that line through the pump (this would be backward through the pump, though: outlet->pump->inlet). I've got two of the Straight Line Uber pumps; I assume these are the same type of pump as the Tsunami. I am planning on testing this out by connecting one pump to the outlet of the other and try pumping some water through it.

- For hard wiring the fill pumps, I was thinking of just connecting them to the wiring for the 12V socket that is located in the cup holder area on the starboard side behind the drivers seat. I would not run both pumps at the same time, and I would not connect another device to the socket, so the only thing drawing power would be one pump. Any issues? I would like to do it this way to make it simpler to install and have it on a protected (fuse & relay) circuit.

[Chia]

Well, I visited my Bu this past weekend, and I just don't think there is enough room for 2 pumps in the bilge area. At least, there isn't enough room for me to get in there to install everything! A more experienced boat tech could probably do this easily, but I just don't think I could without a lot of trouble. The port side of the bilge area has the port hard tank fill pump, depth finder, paddle wheel for speedo, and further back, the raw water intake for the engine. The starboard side has the center and starboard fill pumps on a tee and the drain. There just wasn't anywhere where I could see to fit the new pumps. Therefore, I have revised my design once again. Here is a summary:

- The fill pump will just be plumbed to the bag and hard wired with a switch (see picture below) connected in-line. When I fill one of the bags at the beginning of a session, I will just open the hatch, toss the pump over the side and press the switch to start the pump. Once full, I will just pull the pump up, coil up the tubing on top of the bag and put the pump on top. I will only have to do this once at the beginning of each surf session.

- Each pair of pumps connected to each bag ("transfer" & "drain") will be hard wired to a on-off-on switch on the dash: Port side drain pump to port drain switch; starboard drain pump to starboard drain switch; port "transfer" pump to starboard fill switch; starboard "transfer" pump to port fill switch.

- When I switch sides for surfing, I will just flip a switch on the dash to turn on the "transfer" pump connected to the full bag to move the water from one bag to the other.

- When the session is done, and I need to drain the bag that is full, I will just flip the switch on the dash to start the drain pump.

- I will drill 2 new 1" thru hulls on the side of the boat for the drain lines

This is all automatic except for having to fill the bag at the beginning of the session. But it will be extremely fast as I will be able to fill both the hard tank and bag on the surf side. Fill time should be about 5 minutes, not counting the time it will take to open the hatch, put the pump over the side and press the switch. It's as automatic as I could figure out without having to drill a new thru hull in the bottom and mount the fill pumps; and be extremely fast to fill. I know I could put diverter valves on the stock fill pumps, but by my calculations, this would take 15-20 minutes to fill the hard tank and bag on one side. When we go out, we really don't want to wait that long to get going. We don't have a no-wake zone, and there is a drop-off right behind the hoist, so when we pull away from the dock, we can be surfing or wakeboarding in minutes. We just need a few minutes to get the boat warmed up. So my requirements for the solution are to be easy to operate, fast, relatively inexpensive, and somewhat easy to install. I think I have hit all of these with this solution.

I decided to drill the new drain thru hulls so that I wouldn't have to open the hatch again and put a hose over the side to drain the bag. When we are done for a session, I would like to just hit the switch and drive back to the dock.

Questions:

- Do the Tsunami 1200 pumps allow water to flow through them when they are off? In both directions? If so, I will need to put a valve on the fill pump line so that when I am finished filling, I can close this off. Otherwise, water will just start flowing out that line through the pump (this would be backward through the pump, though: outlet->pump->inlet). I've got two of the Straight Line Uber pumps; I assume these are the same type of pump as the Tsunami. I am planning on testing this out by connecting one pump to the outlet of the other and try pumping some water through it.

- For hard wiring the fill pumps, I was thinking of just connecting them to the wiring for the 12V socket that is located in the cup holder area on the starboard side behind the drivers seat. I would not run both pumps at the same time, and I would not connect another device to the socket, so the only thing drawing power would be one pump. Any issues? I would like to do it this way to make it simpler to install and have it on a protected (fuse & relay) circuit.

--i don't see any real problems with your design, water will take the path of least resistance so if it is easier to pump the drain water back into the bag (thru vent line) that is what will happen.

--for ease of installation, i would use 800gph for the drain pumps.

--water will flow easily thru the pumps either direction. just hold one under a water tap in your sink and you will see.

--when you checked your boat, did you check if there was room to put a "T" on the existing fill thru hulls and add a second pump right there.

--even on the factory hard tank installation. How is air getting vented back into the tank when you are draining the tank? it would seem the water evacuating the boat is taking up the space needed for air to get back to the tank (of course the vent might only be needed during fill).

Edited March 23, 2009 by Cervelo

[skicrave]

--for ease of installation, i would use 800gph for the drain pumps.

T1200s are just as easy to install with a W747 fitting, but they are more expensive. Also, keep in mind that the factory thru-hull drains are 3/4", so if you want everything to look the same outside of the boat you would want to use 3/4" hose.

--water will flow easily thru the pumps either direction. just hold one under a water tap in your sink and you will see.

Yep, the impeller in aerator pumps spins freely in both directions when not energized.

--when you checked your boat, did you check if there was room to put a "T" on the existing fill thru hulls and add a second pump right there.

I completely agree with this, you're going to that much work to integrate the system, make it fully functional. I would keep everything else the same, just pump your pump in with a Tee (there has to be room for that in some orientation), and hide two switches under the dash to turn on your fill pumps.

[Tao of Wake]

--when you checked your boat, did you check if there was room to put a "T" on the existing fill thru hulls and add a second pump right there.

I completely agree with this, you're going to that much work to integrate the system, make it fully functional. I would keep everything else the same, just pump your pump in with a Tee (there has to be room for that in some orientation), and hide two switches under the dash to turn on your fill pumps.

Yes, I did check and there just didn't seem like enough room. Also, keep in mind that on the port side, there is already a tee installed (by Malibu) with the port rear and center tank fill pumps attached. Therefore, to get two more pumps in there, I would have to at least drill one new thru hull.

Another idea I had was to create a 1-1/2" PVC manifold to bring all 3 lines from the existing 3 fill pumps (port, stbd & center) and then have 5 outputs for those same 3 tanks plus the two new bags. Then have valves on each of the outputs to direct the flow. So when I am prepping the boat to go out - before anyone else is even in the boat - I could set the valves for the first session: i.e. close valves to port hard tank & bag & open valves to center, stbd tank & bag. As soon as the boat hits the water, I could turn on all 3 pumps to fill the 2 tanks & 1 bag. Then when I have to switch surf sides, I just start the drain pumps for the stbd tank & bag, close the valves to the center, stbd tank & bag, and then open the valves to the port tank & bag and start up the 3 pumps. This assumes I would not install the "transfer" pumps. This is very similar to the "Bakes design" except that I am using all 3 pumps to fill rather than just 1. Simple, easy to install, inexpensive, fast and almost fully automatic. I was thinking I could put this manifold under the tray that is under the center rear seat - above the v-drive. Most people don't sit there, so it would be easy to get to. Also, that is where the pumps are, and the tubing is going right up there to the vented loops. I could use side outlet tees to direct the flow exactly as the tubing is directed now.

EDIT: I would make the manifold out of 2" PVC instead of 1-1/2". I would make it out of larger, but I can't find the side outlet tee larger than 2", and I need to be concerned with the overall size of the manifold as there is not that much room where I want to put it. And I still want to be able to get to the raw water intake line, exhaust cooling cross-connect, etc. for winterization.

Edited March 23, 2009 by kernaltao

[zzbutler]

Does anyone know if the 1200 pump come with that 90 degree 3/4 fpt x hose barb for the outlet of the pump? I see the adaptor for the 1 1/8 straight thread to 3/4 npt but that only addresses the inlet.

[skicrave]

The T1200 uses 1 1/8" non-standard threads for both the inlet and outlet. If you want to adapter to 3/4" hose, use Fly High's W745, if you want to go to 3/4" NPT thread, use Fly High's W747.

Does that answer your question?

[zzbutler]

yes, it does. thanks!

[skicrave]

No problem!

[zzbutler]

Actually, just for clarification, does the T1200 pump come with the 90 degree elbow on the outlet with the 1 1/8 hose barb on it? The picture shows it on Wakeside but not Wakemakers.

[Tao of Wake]

I've updated my design with some build photos. I was able to successfully stretch the 1" hose over the 1-1/8" barb of the Attwood 3902 adapter, so I will no longer need any 1-1/8" hose or the 1-1/8" to 1" hose adapters.

I will get some better pictures of the manifold once the paint dries and I remove the tape from the barb adapters & ball valve handles. BTW, I used Plasti Dip spray-on paint for the manifold to "rubberize" it to make it blend in with the other hoses in the engine compartment. I didn't want to have white PVC contrasting with the rest of the engine. This manifold will be installed above the v-drive so that it is right in line with the current ballast hoses and so I can easily access the valves from under the rear seat (under the tray that covers the v-drive under that seat).

I'm still waiting to receive the bags, pumps & Fly High fittings.

[zzbutler]

How flexible is that tubing? It looks like it may be fairly rigid.

[Tao of Wake]

How flexible is that tubing? It looks like it may be fairly rigid.

It's not bad. It's better than PVC tubing or even the stock rubber tubing in the boat. I plan on having a heat gun with me when I am routing it in the boat, but I really don't think I will need it.

[Chia]

I've updated my design with some build photos. I was able to successfully stretch the 1" hose over the 1-1/8" barb of the Attwood 3902 adapter, so I will no longer need any 1-1/8" hose or the 1-1/8" to 1" hose adapters.

I will get some better pictures of the manifold once the paint dries and I remove the tape from the barb adapters & ball valve handles. BTW, I used Plasti Dip spray-on paint for the manifold to "rubberize" it to make it blend in with the other hoses in the engine compartment. I didn't want to have white PVC contrasting with the rest of the engine. This manifold will be installed above the v-drive so that it is right in line with the current ballast hoses and so I can easily access the valves from under the rear seat (under the tray that covers the v-drive under that seat).

I'm still waiting to receive the bags, pumps & Fly High fittings.

very nice. i see you could actually use 3 pumps to fill any one bag.

I might have had the fill for the 750# bags go straight thru the manifold instead of doing the 90 degree turn at the manifold.

The other thing i might have done is have a line come off the manifold that could be used to fill a sac on the seats (or other non-permanent location) and a line for a tube sac under the seats.

Not trying to be critical, it is a nice layout, just trying to help.

[Tao of Wake]

I've updated my design with some build photos. I was able to successfully stretch the 1" hose over the 1-1/8" barb of the Attwood 3902 adapter, so I will no longer need any 1-1/8" hose or the 1-1/8" to 1" hose adapters.

I will get some better pictures of the manifold once the paint dries and I remove the tape from the barb adapters & ball valve handles. BTW, I used Plasti Dip spray-on paint for the manifold to "rubberize" it to make it blend in with the other hoses in the engine compartment. I didn't want to have white PVC contrasting with the rest of the engine. This manifold will be installed above the v-drive so that it is right in line with the current ballast hoses and so I can easily access the valves from under the rear seat (under the tray that covers the v-drive under that seat).

I'm still waiting to receive the bags, pumps & Fly High fittings.

very nice. i see you could actually use 3 pumps to fill any one bag.

I might have had the fill for the 750# bags go straight thru the manifold instead of doing the 90 degree turn at the manifold.

The other thing i might have done is have a line come off the manifold that could be used to fill a sac on the seats (or other non-permanent location) and a line for a tube sac under the seats.

Not trying to be critical, it is a nice layout, just trying to help.

I did think about the elbow for the sacs, but I thought since it is 2", I wouldn't see any (or negligible) flow loss due to the elbow. I wanted all of the valves in line for easy access. Also, there isn't a lot of room where I am installing it, so I wanted it as short as possible (side to side). If I didn't have the elbows, it would have been considerably longer.

I did think about adding lines for filling seat sacs, but didn't think I would have the room. The current manifold is already quite large. Also, the line that I am using is not that flexible, so it would be quite difficult to coil up. I did think about getting some flexible 1" line and have an auxiliary port on the manifold with a quick disconnect & valve. I could then connect the line whenever I needed it. It may be more work than just throwing a manual pump over the side, though!

Thanks for the comments and keeping me thinking.

[Tao of Wake]

Cervelo-

I read one of your posts regarding DC solenoid valves where you recommended getting 1/4" turn valves rather than diaphragm. If my design works well, I was thinking of replacing the manual valves with solenoid. I would then wire each valve to the "fill" side of the 3-way switches at the dash for each tank/bag and then wire all 3 fill pumps to a single 2-way switch (replace with larger fuse to compensate, of course). That way, I could just flip the switches for the tanks/bags I want to fill and then hit the switch to start the pumps. I was looking at these pumps on eBay, but they do say they are diaphragm. What did you notice as the issue with the diaphragm type? Also, I'm concerned because the specs on these valves indicate they need to be installed horizontally. Do you know of any 1/4" turn types that can be mounted vertically?

EDIT: I mistakenly linked to the AC model. Here is the 12V DC version.

Edited April 2, 2009 by kernaltao

[Chia]

Cervelo-

I read one of your posts regarding DC solenoid valves where you recommended getting 1/4" turn valves rather than diaphragm. If my design works well, I was thinking of replacing the manual valves with solenoid. I would then wire each valve to the "fill" side of the 3-way switches at the dash for each tank/bag and then wire all 3 fill pumps to a single 2-way switch (replace with larger fuse to compensate, of course). That way, I could just flip the switches for the tanks/bags I want to fill and then hit the switch to start the pumps. I was looking at these pumps on eBay, but they do say they are diaphragm. What did you notice as the issue with the diaphragm type? Also, I'm concerned because the specs on these valves indicate they need to be installed horizontally. Do you know of any 1/4" turn types that can be mounted vertically?

EDIT: I mistakenly linked to the AC model. Here is the 12V DC version.

the pictures tell the story of a diaphragm type valve. look at picture "6" that is where the water flows into the valve, it hits that post. Now see picture "8" and you can see the water flows around the post and up to fill that little area. when the valve is actuated, the water is allowed to flow down the inside of the post to and exit out the other side of the valve. It has way too many changes of direction to be efficient. I did a quick check in my favorites for links to 1/4 turn actuated valves but the links are mostly not valid anymore, will look again later when i have more time.

[Tao of Wake]

the pictures tell the story of a diaphragm type valve. look at picture "6" that is where the water flows into the valve, it hits that post. Now see picture "8" and you can see the water flows around the post and up to fill that little area. when the valve is actuated, the water is allowed to flow down the inside of the post to and exit out the other side of the valve. It has way too many changes of direction to be efficient. I did a quick check in my favorites for links to 1/4 turn actuated valves but the links are mostly not valid anymore, will look again later when i have more time.

Are these the ball valves you were thinking of? Wow, they are expensive!

I have been testing the flow restriction through cheap Orbit sprinkler valves (see this page) from Home Depot. I'm not willing to live with that much flow restriction. So then I found these sprinkler valves from Irritrol. These look to have far less flow restriction, as evidenced by the pressure loss. I ordered a 1" and a 1.5" of these to test. They are quite a bit more expensive than the Obit, Toro, Rain Bird, etc, but not even close to those actuated ball valves!

My thought is that I could use the 1" for the 3/4" feeds to the stock tanks and the 1.5" for the feeds to the sacs. Going with a larger valve should help decrease the flow loss. I just hope there is enough pressure provided by the 3 pumps to open multiple valves. I doubt I would ever need to open more than 3 valves at once, though. If one pump can open one valve, 3 pumps should be able to open 3 valves. I would never fill all of the ballast at once. If I did want to and the pumps wouldn't provide enough pressure to open all of the valves, I could always just fill the stock ballast first and then the sacs. Again, this would be a rare occasion. Most of the time, I will just fill the center and the stock tank & sac on one side (start of session), and then when switching surf sides, I would just be filling two: stock tank & sac on the other side.

[zzbutler]

Kernaltao, keep that test data coming - good stuff. I had planned to do some similar tests when my stuff starts coming in. I had run some TDH calculations on the differences between 3/4, 1, 1 1/8 line sizes, and the loss from fittings, but there is no substitute for real testing.

I have spent hours reading these posts on several forums and I have come to the conclusion that there is a lot of talk about it up front but nobody seems to give the real story afterwords - other than "works great". Some people later find that they had to add a valve here or there or change something out and in the end, they are just happy they aren't spending "as much" effort as before.

Edited April 9, 2009 by zzbutler

[Tao of Wake]

Kernaltao, keep that test data coming - good stuff. I had planned to do some similar tests when my stuff starts coming in. I had run some TDH calculations on the differences between 3/4, 1, 1 1/8 line sizes, and the loss from fittings, but there is no substitute for real testing.

I have spent hours reading these posts on several forums and I have come to the conclusion that there is a lot of talk about it up front but nobody seems to give the real story afterwords - other than "works great". Some people later find that they had to add a valve here or there or change something out and in the end, they are just happy they aren't spending "as much" effort as before.

I agree. Hopefully my data will help others as well. Who knows; maybe valve manufacturers are also reading these forums and would be willing to send me their units to test! Doubt it.

[Tao of Wake]

I've just about completed my ballast install. The only thing left is plumbing the fill pumps to the bags. I forgot to pack the 1" tubing in the truck when I left for Memorial weekend! Here are just a few points from the install:

1. Decided to scrap the manifold and valve setup and just go the direct route with 2 pumps per bag. If you want fast fill & empty times, completely automated and relatively inexpensive, do it this way. Others recommended this very thing to me (thanks, Cervelo), and after exploring about every option, I came to the same conclusion. I now have two 2-way switches on the dash to empty and fill each sac.

2. Sorry, no pictures. I was on a tight time frame to complete the work, so I didn't have time to take any pictures. I may do so the next time I am spending some quality time with the Bu (June 14-16).

3. The factory setup the stock ballast on my '07 VLX with the Port & Center fill pumps sharing the same 3/4" thru hull. It would seem that this would starve the pumps when filling both at the same time. I found that this is not the case. I flipped the switches to start both pumps and timed how long it would take to fill the port tank: 3 minutes & 40 seconds. I then emptied both tanks and then just flipped the switch to the port tank: 3 minutes, 38 seconds. Therefore, there is no flow restriction in this setup! I installed 1" thru hulls for the new Tsunami 1200GPH pumps, but based on this data, I could have easily gone with 3/4" thru hulls! Oh well, hope others can use this data to save some money.

4. When I get the fill pumps plumbed to the bags, I want to test out if I really need anti-siphon valves on the fill and drain lines. I will have both lines installed as high as possible up under the gunnels with a 10" loop. If this doesn't do it, I will either install ball valves in the lines or try the anti-siphon valves. The ball valves will only run about $10 each, but the 1" anti-siphon valves are $26 each! I'll probably go with the ball valves. I will want to open the rear compartments to check when the sac is full, so I can easily just close the valves.

5. Not that big of a deal drilling the holes through the hull. I just followed the recommendation of drilling in reverse until it was through the gel coat.

6. What a pain mounting the hardware in the thru hulls in the bilge area! Not much area to work. I first figured out exactly where the thru hulls should be and then drilled a pilot hole through from the inside of the boat out (used a flexible adapter on the drill so that I could snake the drill bit down to the hull). Then I got under the boat and used the hole saw to drill the hole. I then installed the thru hull using a dock line through the fitting and knot tied on the other side. I put the end of the rope through the hole in the boat, got in the boat, and pulled it up into place. Also, because I wanted to get the boat in the water that afternoon or the next morning, I didn't have time for even the quick set 3M 5200 adhesive to set, so I used Harvey's Plumber's Epoxy Putty (found at Home Depot). No leaks and it was ready for the water in 20 minutes! I then had to connect the elbow & ball valve to each thru hull. This is why my body was sore for the next 2 days. Having to try to work in such a tight space and hunched over did a number on me. Also, I had to remove the tube going from the thru hull for the cooling system to the v-drive so that I had enough room to swivel the elbow onto the thru hull. Overall, I think the install looks great.

7. I sheathed the wiring in the plastic ribbed conduit wherever it was visible and around the engine. I zip-tied it up so that it is out of the way.

I wish I had the patience to install the bow tank like liljohn did. Maybe I'll tackle it next winter. For now, it will be a manual fill of a sac on top of the seats. Good thing is that this will just be filled once at the beginning of a session (usually 4-5 hours depending on how many people are in the boat) and then drained at the end. I was thinking of leaving it full the whole day, but I don't like the prospect of trying to maneuver the Bu onto the hoist with that much weight up there. We'll see.

That's all I have for now. Look for pictures and fill/drain times coming soon...

[zzbutler]

Sounds like the hard part is over. Can't wait for the pics

[Malibuzer]

Sounds like the hard part is over. Can't wait for the pics

ANd the complete detailed parts list including drawings!!!!!!