2019 RAM 1500

[IXFE]

12 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

off the top of my head:

pontiac solstice (saturn sky)

pontiac G8

(heck they scrapped saturn and pontiac completely with new designs)

chevy SS (maybe you know that one )

ford 500

chevy SSR? 

buick verano

cadillac ELR

lincoln MKS?

 

 

Pontiac G8 / Chevrolet SS was not scrapped. GM just stopped importing the G8 into the US in 2008 (ie not in the last decade).  They didn’t really have a choice as Obama forced the closure of Pontiac. That car is really called the Holden Commodore (built in Australia).  They continued to make the Commodore for the Australian market (its primary market) through 2017.  In 2014 it was redesigned.  GM decided to start importing them again into the US but without Pontiac it became the Chevrolet SS.  Like the G8 it was imported only in small quantities (aprox 2500/year) and in one configuration (fully loaded).  It was never intended to be a high volume runner; they have the Cruz/Malibu/Impala for that. The SS was listed as a “performance” car along with the Corvette and Camaro.  In 2017 GM made the decision to stop production of all cars in Australia, so after 100 years, the plant was finally closed.

Buick Verano is a rebadged Chevy Cruz. It’s not a car; it’s a trim level. The Cruz was not cancelled; it was redesigned and lives on.

Cadillac ELR is the same deal... just a fancy Chevy Volt. The Volt was not cancelled; it was redesigned and lives on. 

Chevy SSR was addressed already with oldjeep. It was a low volume specialty vehicle built on a common platform and cancelled in 2006 (ie not in the last decade). 

Both Saturn and Pontiac were scrapped before/as a condition of reorganization.  That’s why Hop asked for examples in the last decade. Anyway neither was scrapped as quickly as the Dart or 200.  

Ford 500 was cancelled in 2006 (ie not in the last decade) and it was built on Ford’s D3 platform. Go look that up to see how many cars share it even to this day. 

Lincoln MKS wasn’t cancelled until 2016 and lasted 8 years. It shared he D3 platform with the 500, among many others. 

Not all cancellations are the same. I think Hop’s point was that cancellation of the Dart and 200 were significant because they were designed from the ground up as new cars with new plants and tooling that quickly failed because they spent too much in R&D and therefor priced those cars too high. Did I get it right @ahopkinsTXi?

Anyway, this trip down Wikipedia lane has been fun, but I gotta do actual work today. Peace..

[Falko]

Understood. I was thinking along the lines of those that got a ton of R&D and never went anywhere. 

But don't forget Oldsmobile, GM shut that age old car name down as well. And unfortunate too given they had some offerings that weren't simply sheet metal changes. I'd rather have seen them shut down Buick (all of their cars are Chevy's with a fedora) instead and keep a more innovative car line like Oldsmobile. But I guess that is probably why they chose Oldsmobile. 

And while we're on the topic of killing brands, GM destroyed SAAB over the years by taking the engineering and design away from them. They ended up losing money by trying to emulate GM cars and make them SAAB instead of ground up design.

If Chrysler wants back in the game, they need to make an affordable reliable car to get the masses over to them. They had a good thing going with the Charger but their tech and fit didn't keep up. They rode that design into the ground.

Doesn't matter, in 15 years we'll all be in autonomous electric shuttles zooming around while we play Fortnight on our phones.

[IXFE]

50 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

IXFE, I hear you.  FCA needs to clean up its management.  Fine.  Most companies could do that.  At the end of the day, is the new 1500 a very impressive offering, yes, one that I'll be looking closely at given my outstanding experience with my 2010 and 2016.

 

As I’ve said all along... I really like the new Ram 1500. I think they will sell gobs of them. 

[IXFE]

47 minutes ago, granddaddy55 said:

The small 4 door trucks that started the crew cab large truck revolution were in Europe , orient, South America , central and the Caribbean islands took a long time to get to US cause of cafe , Toyota snd Nissan, at the time were small car manufacturers, had to bide their time and dictates of CAFE but they got there snd cashed in

strsnge stuff in industry driven by that train wreck of legislation as I agree you just don’t know what’s driving the decisions 

but the thought that Fiat, no matter how big, as a tech and drive savior is a joke,  ITS AN ITALIAN car manufacturer, what else do you need to know , think sexy Pintos, it’s still a Pinto, 

This post reminded me of the 4-door Hilux I drove for a year in the Dominican Republic (circa 1994). That was a fun little truck, but coming from the US it looked so strange to me (big cab with tiny bed). Little did I know how much that configuration would come to dominate the US market. 

[ahopkins22LSV]

11 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Pontiac G8 / Chevrolet SS was not scrapped. GM just stopped importing the G8 into the US in 2008 (ie not in the last decade).  They didn’t really have a choice as Obama forced the closure of Pontiac. That car is really called the Holden Commodore (built in Australia).  They continued to make the Commodore for the Australian market (its primary market) through 2017.  In 2014 it was redesigned.  GM decided to start importing them again into the US but without Pontiac it became the Chevrolet SS.  Like the G8 it was imported only in small quantities (aprox 2500/year) and in one configuration (fully loaded).  It was never intended to be a high volume runner; they have the Cruz/Malibu/Impala for that. The SS was listed as a “performance” car along with the Corvette and Camaro.  In 2017 GM made the decision to stop production of all cars in Australia, so after 100 years, the plant was finally closed.

Buick Verano is a rebadged Chevy Cruz. It’s not a car; it’s a trim level. The Cruz was not cancelled; it was redesigned and lives on.

Cadillac ELR is the same deal... just a fancy Chevy Volt. The Volt was not cancelled; it was redesigned and lives on. 

Chevy SSR was addressed already with oldjeep. It was a low volume specialty vehicle built on a common platform and cancelled in 2006 (ie not in the last decade). 

Both Saturn and Pontiac were scrapped before/as a condition of reorganization.  That’s why Hop asked for examples in the last decade. Anyway neither was scrapped as quickly as the Dart or 200.  

Ford 500 was cancelled in 2006 (ie not in the last decade) and it was built on Ford’s D3 platform. Go look that up to see how many cars share it even to this day. 

Lincoln MKS wasn’t cancelled until 2016 and lasted 8 years. It shared he D3 platform with the 500, among many others. 

Not all cancellations are the same. I think Hop’s point was that cancellation of the Dart and 200 were significant because they were designed from the ground up as new cars with new plants and tooling that quickly failed because they spent too much in R&D and therefor priced those cars too high. Did I get it right @ahopkinsTXi?

Anyway, this trip down Wikipedia lane has been fun, but I gotta do actual work today. Peace..

Yes that’s what I was trying to get at. They were made to compete with their two biggest, local competitors. That’s why I view it as significant.

I apologize for this rabbit hole. I made a simple statement about my experience with fca and why I’m currently not interested in this ram or any other fca vehicle. I was asked to explain instead of people just taking it at face value, like so many others do for why people switched boat brands. Then when I did I and some other who have had some experience get slammed because we are “disgruntled”. It is way different just being a consumer over working with or for a company. Yes I was never employed as an fca employee, I was with a supplier who made large assemblies for the truck. For those who don’t work in the auto industry, as a supplier you are employeed to that supplier, but you work for the Oem and mainly follow all of their procedures and processes so you get a very very good understanding of how that oem functions. In launch you see all sides, finance, engineering, manufacturing, quality and validation, etc...

Im very happy that everyone has liked their current rams. Honestly. The economy needs it. And competition is what drives others to succeed. I really liked the old ram, I test drove them and debated buying one last year. A very good friend of mine has had 3 since 2010 and all of them have been great. At the end of my shopping I was able to get the exact Chevy truck I wanted for a better deal then the Ram. And yes, I’ve been a Chevy guy my entire life but I would have easily bought the Ram if we could have beat the Chevy deal. 

[85 Barefoot]

54 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Pontiac G8 / Chevrolet SS was not scrapped. GM just stopped importing the G8 into the US in 2008 (ie not in the last decade).  They didn’t really have a choice as Obama forced the closure of Pontiac. That car is really called the Holden Commodore (built in Australia).  They continued to make the Commodore for the Australian market (its primary market) through 2017.  In 2014 it was redesigned.  GM decided to start importing them again into the US but without Pontiac it became the Chevrolet SS.  Like the G8 it was imported only in small quantities (aprox 2500/year) and in one configuration (fully loaded).  It was never intended to be a high volume runner; they have the Cruz/Malibu/Impala for that. The SS was listed as a “performance” car along with the Corvette and Camaro.  In 2017 GM made the decision to stop production of all cars in Australia, so after 100 years, the plant was finally closed.

Buick Verano is a rebadged Chevy Cruz. It’s not a car; it’s a trim level. The Cruz was not cancelled; it was redesigned and lives on.

Cadillac ELR is the same deal... just a fancy Chevy Volt. The Volt was not cancelled; it was redesigned and lives on. 

Chevy SSR was addressed already with oldjeep. It was a low volume specialty vehicle built on a common platform and cancelled in 2006 (ie not in the last decade). 

Both Saturn and Pontiac were scrapped before/as a condition of reorganization.  That’s why Hop asked for examples in the last decade. Anyway neither was scrapped as quickly as the Dart or 200.  

Ford 500 was cancelled in 2006 (ie not in the last decade) and it was built on Ford’s D3 platform. Go look that up to see how many cars share it even to this day. 

Lincoln MKS wasn’t cancelled until 2016 and lasted 8 years. It shared he D3 platform with the 500, among many others. 

Not all cancellations are the same. I think Hop’s point was that cancellation of the Dart and 200 were significant because they were designed from the ground up as new cars with new plants and tooling that quickly failed because they spent too much in R&D and therefor priced those cars too high. Did I get it right @ahopkinsTXi?

Anyway, this trip down Wikipedia lane has been fun, but I gotta do actual work today. Peace..

According to the internet, the 200, even up until its last model year, was built on a platform that debuted in 2007.  But that platform was not exclusive to the 200 and so using the 200 as an example of a ground up redesign that failed is akin to saying the same about the ford 500 or ELR or verano.  Same goes for the dart.  Yes the models failed, like many of what I listed.  

Nonetheless, take 2015 for example, the 200 sold more than four times the number of tauruses sold.  Scrapping a model, even a whole segment, can be defined as a failure, sure, doesn't mean they didn't sell or weren't quality.

I think the crux is that on one hand veranos can die because the architecture lives on, but the same cannot be said for a dead 200, even though the JS lives on.  Get back to work 9 iron! 

Edited April 17, 2018 by 85 Barefoot

[bamabonners]

8 hours ago, IXFE said:

All this cuz you didn’t understand a joke...

I’ll say it again cuz apparently you can’t read and/or don’t understand context. The conversation started by Hop wasn’t about what cars you like, your impression of the brand as a consumer, or your favorite color. It was about how well FCA is run INTERNALLY as a business.  You say you “don’t care” about that.  So why did you decide to stick your nose into a convo you don’t care about? 

I’m glad you like your Ram. I’m gonna sleep well tonight knowing that. 

 

The thread was about the new truck, which I started.  So not sure how that translates to me poking my nose in.  Do you have anything of value to actually add to this thread,  or are you just going to keep coming after me personally?  Just curious because I’d be interested in talking more about the auto industry or the truck, but could care less about dealing with your usual routine of talking down to people and personal attacks.  You seem fairly smart, know a little about everything, and could probably add some value to most any conversation, but it appears to be veiled in a know it all holier than though bull s**t wrapper.  

Moving on...  

speaking of Italian makers.. fiat really trying to revive the Alfa line in America as well.  It’ll be interesting to see if they can shake the unreliable history of that maker as well.  From a purely consumer standpoint, as I have no insight  into their internal workings, the Alfa line sure looks sharp***.

***views expressed in this post are held only by the originator of the post.  No claims are made to actually be an insider to the auto industry.  Claims made here are based purely on originator’s opinion from a consumer standpoint. 

[Falko]

The new Alfas are sure taking grip on the younger crowd. The only ones I've seen are driven by late 20's to mid 30's guys. The ones I've seen are pretty nice, but deceptively small. Must be an Italian thing, my Aprilia was a tight bike.

[DAI]

32 minutes ago, ahopkinsTXi said:

 

Im very happy that everyone has liked their current rams. Honestly. The economy needs it. And competition is what drives others to succeed. I really liked the old ram, I test drove them and debated buying one last year. A very good friend of mine has had 3 since 2010 and all of them have been great. At the end of my shopping I was able to get the exact Chevy truck I wanted for a better deal then the Ram. And yes, I’ve been a Chevy guy my entire life but I would have easily bought the Ram if we could have beat the Chevy deal. 

This is exactly what I hope happens with the new Ram.  There is a lot of things I would like to see Ford replicate on the next Gen of trucks (in particular Super Duty), such as the amount and quality of leather Ram is using, the audio system, rear cooled seats,  etc . . .  I really hope the Ram is extremely successful to mininally force the two manufacturers to match, if not one up it.  Intense competition among manufacturers is typically a good thing for consumers. 

Disclosure:  I've owed Chevy, International Harvester, AMC, Jeep, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, Nissan, Ford, Infiniti.  And currently have a VW Atlas on order.  And can still drive a 3-in-the-tree transmission.

[granddaddy55]

1 hour ago, IXFE said:

This post reminded me of the 4-door Hilux I drove for a year in the Dominican Republic (circa 1994). That was a fun little truck, but coming from the US it looked so strange to me (big cab with tiny bed). Little did I know how much that configuration would come to dominate the US market. 

I’m thinking that Toyota had their plan to bring it in as luxury with the only available powertrain the v6 auto, which due to cafe , probably delayed the entrance .  When they could have brought it in as a “Hilux” 4 cylinder 5 speed manual which all of the Mitsubishi’s snd Toyota’s were in those countries 

[granddaddy55]

23 minutes ago, DAI said:

This is exactly what I hope happens with the new Ram.  There is a lot of things I would like to see Ford replicate on the next Gen of trucks (in particular Super Duty), such as the amount and quality of leather Ram is using, the audio system, rear cooled seats,  etc . . .  I really hope the Ram is extremely successful to mininally force the two manufacturers to match, if not one up it.  Intense competition among manufacturers is typically a good thing for consumers. 

Disclosure:  I've owed Chevy, International Harvester, AMC, Jeep, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, Nissan, Ford, Infiniti.  And currently have a VW Atlas on order.  And can still drive a 3-in-the-tree transmission.

Drove two 3 GM trucks and cars with 3 on tree

i hope they don’t , I think I got a great deal on XLT 2016 with lots of “base” luxury super cheap 

the filter out your taking about has made the XLT something you have to order to get that same “base” luxury,

so not sure I’m with you on that

 

[IXFE]

52 minutes ago, bamabonners said:

 

The thread was about the new truck, which I started.  So not sure how that translates to me poking my nose in.  Do you have anything of value to actually add to this thread,  or are you just going to keep coming after me personally?  Just curious because I’d be interested in talking more about the auto industry or the truck, but could care less about dealing with your usual routine of talking down to people and personal attacks.  You seem fairly smart, know a little about everything, and could probably add some value to most any conversation, but it appears to be veiled in a know it all holier than though bull s**t wrapper. 

Classic bamaboner tactic... can’t hang with the substance of the conversation so resorts to personal attacks.

Buddy, you’re the one who engaged me after I posted a simple meme to help lighten the discussion. Since then all I’ve done is bring facts and context to the discussion. I’m sorry if my tone hurts your delicate feelings.

Relax, it’s the Internet. 

[granddaddy55]

When are we going to figure out it’s ALL OPINION, buoyed by facts or not 

can’t stand when anyone uses IMHO, or IMO, not meant about this thread particularly but agsin ITS ALL OPINION, that’s the point. 

We shouldn’t have to state that , more free flow fun whether accurate or not .  

Looked what happened to txihopkins, I couldn’t resist repeating it yesterday and he probably laughed

ME THINKS THOUGH HAVE ENDURED A LONG WINTER SLUMBER AND HAVE AWAKENED AS BEARS FROM HIBERNATION READY TO EAT/SURF!!!

Edited April 17, 2018 by granddaddy55

[IXFE]

59 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

According to the internet, the 200, even up until its last model year, was built on a platform that debuted in 2007.  But that platform was not exclusive to the 200 and so using the 200 as an example of a ground up redesign that failed is akin to saying the same about the ford 500 or ELR or verano.  Same goes for the dart.  Yes the models failed, like many of what I listed.  

Nonetheless, take 2015 for example, the 200 sold more than four times the number of tauruses sold.  Scrapping a model, even a whole segment, can be defined as a failure, sure, doesn't mean they didn't sell or weren't quality.

I think the crux is that on one hand veranos can die because the architecture lives on, but the same cannot be said for a dead 200, even though the JS lives on.  Get back to work 9 iron! 

Good research, 85. I’m not really an expert on the Dart or 200 platform. As I said from the beginning, I was basing a lot of my comments on Hop’s assertion that these were not your garden variety cancellations. I was honestly trying to find comparables.

The Verano is not a comparable cancellation.  I rented one once... it was literally the same sheet metal as a Cruz (ie same factory, same tooling). The ELR is a slightly better example... it has unique sheet metal and interior, but underneath it’s identical to the Volt.

It does seem strange that FCA has nothing in those important, high volume segments now. Chrysler as a brand has become a joke.  Their website shows a grand total of THREE models now  

Be careful when you look at sales numbers as not all sales are created equal... rental car lots are littered with 200’s.  Do you know anybody who owns one?  Do you see them in your parking lot at work?  I don’t.  In this sense I’m gonna have to agree with Hop’s point that Fiat has largely failed to bring small/medium car expertise to Chrysler or Dodge. 

[Stevo]

On 4/13/2018 at 1:17 PM, bamabonners said:

I love my 2017 Ram 1500....much more than my POS 2014 GMC 1400 and only slightly more than my 2014 F150.

These 2019 look to be even better.  Can't wait to see the new interior in person...  And that new Rebel!!

https://youtu.be/pLsHOHumKDs

This post should have told all of y’all , all you needed to know.... but you took the bait.

[granddaddy55]

As I said , Italian car manufacturer , whether or not their huge and mske money!  Doesn’t matter, and maybe they are really good at operating the socialism/capitalism/protectionism system of Europe 

[85 Barefoot]

35 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Good research, 85. I’m not really an expert on the Dart or 200 platform. As I said from the beginning, I was basing a lot of my comments on Hop’s assertion that these were not your garden variety cancellations. I was honestly trying to find comparables.

The Verano is not a comparable cancellation.  I rented one once... it was literally the same sheet metal as a Cruz (ie same factory, same tooling). The ELR is a slightly better example... it has unique sheet metal and interior, but underneath it’s identical to the Volt.

It does seem strange that FCA has nothing in those important, high volume segments now. Chrysler as a brand has become a joke.  Their website shows a grand total of THREE models now  

Be careful when you look at sales numbers as not all sales are created equal... rental car lots are littered with 200’s.  Do you know anybody who owns one?  Do you see them in your parking lot at work?  I don’t.  In this sense I’m gonna have to agree with Hop’s point that Fiat has largely failed to bring small/medium car expertise to Chrysler or Dodge. 

We just view it differently, I suppose.  If the verano is no longer, it didn't make sense for buick to produce it.  For chevy, it does.  Chrysler scrapped the 200 yet uses the platform to make jeeps with the same platform and powertrains.  I fail to see the significant contrast.  In the end, the verano is just as dead as the 200.  Lets face it, there has never in the history of cars been as steep of a shift away from small sedans as what we have seen the last 5 years.  Hard for anyone to make one that sells, let alone break into the market.  Eating away and accords and civics and corollas is a tall order.  

I wholly agree that Fiat hasn't brought the goods that people will buy.  I just can't make the connection that because those cars failed, that the new ram is a POS.  I know that's not what you were saying exactly, but the failure of the 200 has literally no bearing on my positive thoughts about what Ram can produce.  That said, I have been pmming w ahop and have found his insight very interesting.  

What is it lunch break?  or are you flying to dubai?

 

[85 Barefoot]

14 minutes ago, granddaddy55 said:

As I said , Italian car manufacturer , whether or not their huge and mske money!  Doesn’t matter, and maybe they are really good at operating the socialism/capitalism/protectionism system of Europe 

my internet interpretation software seems to be down...can you explain?

[IXFE]

32 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

We just view it differently, I suppose.  If the verano is no longer, it didn't make sense for buick to produce it.  For chevy, it does.  Chrysler scrapped the 200 yet uses the platform to make jeeps with the same platform and powertrains.  I fail to see the significant contrast.  In the end, the verano is just as dead as the 200.  Lets face it, there has never in the history of cars been as steep of a shift away from small sedans as what we have seen the last 5 years.  Hard for anyone to make one that sells, let alone break into the market.  Eating away and accords and civics and corollas is a tall order.  

I wholly agree that Fiat hasn't brought the goods that people will buy.  I just can't make the connection that because those cars failed, that the new ram is a POS.  I know that's not what you were saying exactly, but the failure of the 200 has literally no bearing on my positive thoughts about what Ram can produce.  That said, I have been pmming w ahop and have found his insight very interesting.  

What is it lunch break?  or are you flying to dubai?

 

Between meetings...

Totally agree that rebadging a Cruz into a Buick was a market failure. I’m a car guy and I honestly didn’t know what a Verano was until I stepped into one at Hertz last year.  I remember cuz I got an email from Hertz as I was landing telling me what my car was.  I remember thinking, “Sweet!  I’m gonna be in a Buick this week!”  Twenty minutes later I get to the car and go, “Oh, it’s just a Cruz.”  Lol

The difference I was trying to demonstrate with a car like the Verano is that it didn’t have unique R&D, a unique factory, or unique tooling built for it. So the sunk cost was much less than for cars like the Dart or the 200.  Even with shared platforms they had a lot of unique R&D, tooling, favtories, etc.  That is BIG money.

Also, when the Verano failed it didn’t spell the end for GM in the small/medium car segment like it did with FCA. That makes it different too. 

I’m just trying to have a nuanced discussion here instead of black and white.  That’s hard to do on the forum especially when some just see arguing with IXFE as some sort of sport. 

85, we totally agree this has zero to do with the new Ram, which I like a lot. Hopkins said he wouldn’t buy the new Ram cuz of what he knows about FCA. That shifted the convo away from the Ram and towards FCA as a business. I’m a sucker for business conversations especially about auto and boat industry... 

Back to the Ram!  Do we think the new Rebel will compete with the 2017+ Raptor?

Edited April 17, 2018 by IXFE

[granddaddy55]

Ok, earlier I spoke about it

Lets talk example , Fiat spider roadster convertible , we all loved the look, just didn’t run everyday sort of like British Leyland.  Europe has been sort of flash no substance in many companies if they have to compete without protections.  the origin of VW and Fiat were fascist/socialist origins dependent on large government purchases business to get their big leg up.  Ford was ground up capitalism (and didn’t take a drop of bailout money many others did). GM benefited greatly from our war efforts because they were s capitalist successful entrepreneurial endeavor to start with.  But when GM and Chrysler had to start taking their cues from government cause strings attached to that money and yiu get the volt, 200, and Dart

socislism dulls the blade of capitalism 

Edited April 17, 2018 by granddaddy55

[granddaddy55]

I did like how my old Ram 5.9 was indestructible , I just like my new ford better, do I like the way new Rams look and feel inside , yes espevially that Laramie diesel, I just like my simple XLT better, and the point of fords sucess was the simplicity of the XLT & XL, (SXT sort of doesn’t count) , the f100’s grandsons

grew up driving 2 trucks GM standards , 3 speed 73 in-line 6

GMC 1/2 ton , and 81 5 speed inline? 6Chevy 

both indestructsble and simple Isnt that what trucks are for ?

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by granddaddy55

[RyanB]

12 hours ago, IXFE said:

I was simply saying that CAFE was likely the reason they needed the Dart and the 200. Under CAFE a car company can’t really survive just selling trucks, suv’s, and muscle cars.  Sure those are most profitable. And if profits were all there is to it, then no problem, that’s all any of them would sell. You think Chevy actually likes having to sell the Sonic?  Lol. 

If you know me at all, you know I’m all about maximizing ROI. Weed and feed, baby. But it’s never that simple in the auto industry. How do they meet the CAFE requirements without significant volume from small 4 cyl cars?  I’m honestly asking.  Is CAFE dead now?  Nope.  Maybe FCA is in violation but decided they’re still better off even after accounting for the $55/car they have to pay for every 1mpg they’re over CAFE.  Sorta like an NBA team that willingly exceeds the salary cap and pays the corresponding luxury tax.

Anyway, I think you might be confusing what Hop was saying about the two failed cars. His point wasn’t that they shouldn’t have cancelled them. A loser is a loser. His point was simply that they produced losers (under the expert eye of Fiat). That seems to have hurt some people’s feelings. He used that fact to demonstrate they lost sight of the market.  Kinda hard to argue against that point since the cancellations you acknowledge are the proof.

Oh, and I love how you DONT know Hop well enough to know who he works for but somehow you DO know him well enough to call him disgruntled (twice). 

Ram fanboys are out in force tonight!!

I will agree that CAFE likely had a very large part with why they decided to invest in the Dart and 200 (200 as stated was a refresh, not all new).  I am also of the opinion that CAFE is going to be much less important during the upcoming years.  Sincere question.  How do the CAFE penalites (if they stay as currently designed) compare to tariffs on foreign built vehicles?  Because by shifting RAM production from Mexico, that is what the tradeoff will be.

I didn't understand FCA pulling out of the small vehicle market, but I am taking it on faith that there is some sort of method to the thought process.  If you agree with Hop, that trust is misplaced.  

No hurt feelings here that the Dart and 200 were losers.  I never drove a Dart, but have rented plenty of 200's.  And I wouldn't have bought one.

And you are also right where I DON'T know Hop well enough to know what his exact job is.  But I do know him well enough to call  him disgruntled (three times now if you are counting).  The definition of disgruntled according to the Collins English Dictionary is "to be angry or dissatisfied that things did not happen the way you wanted to them to happen".  He could be disgruntled with cause, but from what I have read here, it does fit the clinical definition.  I am sorry if he took offense to that. 

3 hours ago, IXFE said:

As I’ve said all along... I really like the new Ram 1500. I think they will sell gobs of them. 

Me too.

1 hour ago, IXFE said:

Good research, 85. I’m not really an expert on the Dart or 200 platform. As I said from the beginning, I was basing a lot of my comments on Hop’s assertion that these were not your garden variety cancellations. I was honestly trying to find comparables.

The Verano is not a comparable cancellation.  I rented one once... it was literally the same sheet metal as a Cruz (ie same factory, same tooling). The ELR is a slightly better example... it has unique sheet metal and interior, but underneath it’s identical to the Volt.

It does seem strange that FCA has nothing in those important, high volume segments now. Chrysler as a brand has become a joke.  Their website shows a grand total of THREE models now  

Be careful when you look at sales numbers as not all sales are created equal... rental car lots are littered with 200’s.  Do you know anybody who owns one?  Do you see them in your parking lot at work?  I don’t.  In this sense I’m gonna have to agree with Hop’s point that Fiat has largely failed to bring small/medium car expertise to Chrysler or Dodge. 

I was going to (and I think I already mentioned) the VW Phaeton as another example of a big investment that was bailed on.  Looks like it was sold from 2003 - 2006.  But it looks like sales continued overseas.  Didn't one of the Korean car manufactures try to do a luxury car or brand?  I see from a web search Genesis is still made.  But I don't know if I have ever seen one in the wild.

Also will agree that Fiat has largely failed to bring small and medium car success to Chrysler.  But that is a shrinking market.  I think they have been successful with the Jeep Renegade and the new Compass.  Both of those vehicles will help with CAFE.

Edited April 17, 2018 by RyanB

[IXFE]

1 minute ago, RyanB said:

 Jeep Renegade and the new Compass.  Both of those vehicles will help with CAFE.

I would argue they do more than help, assuming they’re selling in significant volume. I’m betting they were conceived entirely because of CAFE. 

I don’t have the numbers to prove this statement, but I’d bet a SIGNIFICANT percentage of Jeep volume over the past decade is made up of JGC and JKU. Everything else is window dressing. 

Ryan, we better start talking about the new Ram or somebody’s head is going to explode. I’ll try for the third time to bring it back...

 

Hey @oldjeep, gonna check the 4x4 box this time?

Hey @85 Barefoot, what trim level you gonna spring for?  What options do you like?

Hey @bamabonners, how long do you think it will take for the newness to wear off such that we’ll see $10k off pricing?

Hey @bamaboy, Are you really gonna trade in your Duramax for this truck?  Are you thinking Rebel?

[85 Barefoot]

40 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Between meetings...

Totally agree that rebadging a Cruz into a Buick was a market failure. I’m a car guy and I honestly didn’t know what a Verano was until I stepped into one at Hertz last year.  I remember cuz I got an email from Hertz as I was landing telling me what my car was.  I remember thinking, “Sweet!  I’m gonna be in a Buick this week!”  Twenty minutes later I get to the car and go, “Oh, it’s just a Cruz.”  Lol

The difference I was trying to demonstrate with a car like the Verano is that it didn’t have unique R&D, a unique factory, or unique tooling built for it. So the sunk cost was much less than for cars like the Dart or the 200.  Even with shared platforms they had a lot of unique R&D, tooling, favtories, etc.  That is BIG money.

Also, when the Verano failed it didn’t spell the end for GM in the small/medium car segment like it did with FCA. That makes it different too. 

I’m just trying to have a nuanced discussion here instead of black and white.  That’s hard to do on the forum especially when some just see arguing with IXFE as some sort of sport. 

85, we totally agree this has zero to do with the new Ram, which I like a lot. Hopkins said he wouldn’t buy the new Ram cuz of what he knows about FCA. That shifted the convo away from the Ram and towards FCA as a business. I’m a sucker for business conversations especially about auto and boat industry... 

Back to the Ram!  Do we think the new Rebel will compete with the 2017+ Raptor?

IXFE,

I hear you, and appreciate your perspective in all things.  Would very much like to share a beer growler one day.  I appreciate a nuanced interesting discussion/debate with adults.  Trust me, I've had my share that have gone otherwise on here (never my fault of course).  

As to the rebel, I see it as a raptor lite.  Which is fine.  I looked hard at the rebel when I got my 16 but found it a touch too juvenile.  I think it has grown "up" a lot.  The sir suspension is truly something to behold.

[bamabonners]

17 minutes ago, IXFE said:

, how long do you think it will take for the newness to wear off such that we’ll see $10k off pricing?

Depends on how it sells, I guess.  I’m sure there are more things than just sales against the competitors to determine rebates.  

I was actually shocked to see f150 commercial advertising 10k+ the other day.  Seems like ford and Toyota never offer large rebates.