F150 Diesel!

[85 Barefoot]

2 hours ago, Nitrousbird said:

I don't get these emissions lawsuits.  Did the cheating of emissions impact the quality of use or performance of the vehicle they purchased?

I can see a gov't lawsuit for the emissions against Ford, but cheating emissions in no way degraded the enjoyment of the vehicle and it still achieved fuel/power ratings (presumably) that it was rated for.

That's the case up until now, but if a defeat device was used, it will have to be retrofitted, in which case like for VW, performance and economy suffer, therefore unfairly reducing its market value...that's the root of the plaintiffs' damages.  Plaintiffs don't have blanket standing to recover damages on behalf of the populace as a whole who may have been physically damaged, to the extent that can even be measured.  However, there are unfair trade practice counts that some state law could provide damages of a different character.

Edited January 12, 2018 by 85 Barefoot

[Pra4sno]

1 hour ago, MadMan said:

What seems ludicrous to me is that you buy a new truck that has a couple grand in emissions controls on it, then spend another $2000  removing them.  Sounds to me like the OEM emission controls should be optional instead of required.

Yikes.  Emission controls optional?

You should have seen Denver in the early 90s before the clean air act made it's impact.  Couldn't even see the mountains from downtown.  Even now we could do a lot better but it's a massive change.  

Yes these trucks are big and driving performance wasn't impacted; however, many people do care about the environment and the diminished value on a truck that was touted as a clean diesel.  

Edited January 12, 2018 by Pra4sno

[tjklein]

Emissions control is a good thing.  It's somewhat of a hassle?  Sure.   Performance wise?  +900ft lbs of torque isn't enough? 

[RyanB]

4 hours ago, Pra4sno said:

Yikes.  Emission controls optional?

You should have seen Denver in the early 90s before the clean air act made it's impact.  Couldn't even see the mountains from downtown.  Even now we could do a lot better but it's a massive change.  

Yes these trucks are big and driving performance wasn't impacted; however, many people do care about the environment and the diminished value on a truck that was touted as a clean diesel.  

Vehicle emissions has very little to do with the "brown cloud" in Denver.  It is actually caused much more by the larger particles like the sand that we used in the past to make the roads drivable in the winter.

What do you mean "diminished value on a truck that was touted as a clean diesel"?

These lawsuits now are almost always ambulance chaser lawyers out looking to make a buck.  There has been extensive investigation, and VW has been the only one found cheating emissions.

[Nitrousbird]

5 hours ago, 85 Barefoot said:

That's the case up until now, but if a defeat device was used, it will have to be retrofitted, in which case like for VW, performance and economy suffer, therefore unfairly reducing its market value...that's the root of the plaintiffs' damages.  Plaintiffs don't have blanket standing to recover damages on behalf of the populace as a whole who may have been physically damaged, to the extent that can even be measured.  However, there are unfair trade practice counts that some state law could provide damages of a different character.

You are not required by law to have the recall performed.

[85 Barefoot]

46 minutes ago, RyanB said:

Vehicle emissions has very little to do with the "brown cloud" in Denver.  It is actually caused much more by the larger particles like the sand that we used in the past to make the roads drivable in the winter.

What do you mean "diminished value on a truck that was touted as a clean diesel"?

These lawsuits now are almost always ambulance chaser lawyers out looking to make a buck.  There has been extensive investigation, and VW has been the only one found cheating emissions.

wait, even if VW was the only one "cheating" emissions, it doesn't necessarily mean other diesel investigations revealed the manufacturers were in compliance, either.  FIAT all but admitted they're not in compliance.  Their fix was to update software (successfully).  So, while it may not have been intentional, that's a lot different than suggesting only VW's cars were not in compliance.  Indeed, shoot the messenger if you like (the ambulance chaser lawyers), but I have no love lost for a manufacturer selling something that is fraudulently out of compliance with something they're required to follow.  

[85 Barefoot]

20 minutes ago, Nitrousbird said:

You are not required by law to have the recall performed.

maybe not, but is it debatable that the people who do suffered a direct economic loss?

[RyanB]

30 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

wait, even if VW was the only one "cheating" emissions, it doesn't necessarily mean other diesel investigations revealed the manufacturers were in compliance, either.  FIAT all but admitted they're not in compliance.  Their fix was to update software (successfully).  So, while it may not have been intentional, that's a lot different than suggesting only VW's cars were not in compliance.  Indeed, shoot the messenger if you like (the ambulance chaser lawyers), but I have no love lost for a manufacturer selling something that is fraudulently out of compliance with something they're required to follow.  

Incorrect.

VW was caught cheating. No other manufacturers.....period. Engineers KNOWINGLY installed software in the ECM that operated 'cleaner' when an emissions testing system was connected. When the testing equipment was not present the vehicle operated under different software parameters that polluted more.

RAM was not 'caught cheating'. The EPA allows for the ECM to bypass levels of clean operation under certain conditions (heavy load, environmental conditions, etc.). All of the OEM's are given this allowance because there are just times where running clean isn't possible (i.e. frozen DEF). The ECM's are programmed to take advantage of these conditions but run under the 'clean' parameters at all other times when possible.

The EPA tried to cry fowl on the RAM Ecodiesel claiming that FCA had exceeded the exceptions allowed. There was no CHEAT claimed, the EPA only was accusing FCA of using more exceptions. FCA sat down with EPA regulators, took them step by step through the software, and showed them the system was operating exactly how they told EPA it would and within the allowed specs. EPA said 'oh, yeah I guess you're right'. End of story.

I don't know the situations for GM or Ford, but I would guess it's probably a similar deal with them. The EPA is trying to crack down on emissions and going through control systems with a fine tooth comb. As soon as they find one irregularity folks want to jump up and down screaming "CHEATER".

Let's face facts: meeting the EPA regs for emissions is a tough task. Hitting those requirements while making more power than every is an even taller task. Pretty much all of the OEM's are doing this, so I'll cut them a lot of slack.

Edited January 12, 2018 by RyanB

[85 Barefoot]

13 minutes ago, RyanB said:

Incorrect.

VW was caught cheating. No other manufacturers.....period. Engineers KNOWINGLY installed software in the ECM that operated 'cleaner' when an emissions testing system was connected. When the testing equipment was not present the vehicle operated under different software parameters that polluted more.

RAM was not 'caught cheating'. The EPA allows for the ECM to bypass levels of clean operation under certain conditions (heavy load, environmental conditions, etc.). All of the OEM's are given this allowance because there are just times where running clean isn't possible (i.e. frozen DEF). The ECM's are programmed to take advantage of these conditions but run under the 'clean' parameters at all other times when possible.

The EPA tried to cry fowl on the RAM Ecodiesel claiming that FCA had exceeded the exceptions allowed. There was no CHEAT claimed, the EPA only was accusing FCA of using more exceptions. FCA sat down with EPA regulators, took them step by step through the software, and showed them the system was operating exactly how they told EPA it would and within the allowed specs. EPA said 'oh, yeah I guess you're right'. End of story.

I don't know the situations for GM or Ford, but I would guess it's probably a similar deal with them. The EPA is trying to crack down on emissions and going through control systems with a fine tooth comb. As soon as they find one irregularity folks want to jump up and down screaming "CHEATER".

Let's face facts: meeting the EPA regs for emissions is a tough task. Hitting those requirements while making more power than every is an even taller task. Pretty much all of the OEM's are doing this, so I'll cut them a lot of slack.

If you read what I wrote, and then what you wrote, you'll see we're actually not saying different things.

[MLBurns]

Everyone wants a small engine to perform/pull as if it were a big Cat engine in a big rig. But nobody wants it to produce the emissions of a big engine, even though it will take as much fuel to make the same power. My dad used to tell me to 'Wish in one hand and.........'

[carguy79ta]

On 1/12/2018 at 12:03 PM, tjklein said:

Emissions control is a good thing.  It's somewhat of a hassle?  Sure.   Performance wise?  +900ft lbs of torque isn't enough? 

900 ft lbs is never enough.  I have 1100 to 1200 on my Ram.  a bigger turbo is on the horizon to get it around 1400.

[tjklein]

3 hours ago, carguy79ta said:

900 ft lbs is never enough.  I have 1100 to 1200 on my Ram.  a bigger turbo is on the horizon to get it around 1400.

Love it.  :-)   Horsepower/Torque is never enough.

[Arctic Slalom]

chevy and ford are just copying what Ram did (4) years ago.....am I missing something? 

[Sixball]

When I left the Ford emissions lab the filters used to capture particulates in diesel emissions testing had to be handled with tweezers. If not the oil on ones hand would throw off the weights. I Know the standards were getting even tighter and new testing sites were being built to address testing. We tested with  PPM  as the standard back in my days our new sites we were building were PPT  I wish people could see the work going into emissions  testing in the automotive industry.  Even big diesels are not exempt. My ski partner is building four new machines for land clearing and remediation. He puts larger engines then the OME offers. Cat in this case all need to have cert from Cat to be sold or put into service.  I wish people could see the engineering going into the industry overall it just mind boggling. I did some work in what we called the SI lab scientific Lab things the avrige person isn't even thinking about.  Things people in the industry don't even know its being looked at.                     

Edited February 23, 2018 by Sixball