M235 first day on the water

[23LSVOwner]

5 minutes ago, MaliWop said:

I haven't been lurking this forum for all that long. But it has been a great place for information. I've learned a lot, found great ideas, and received a great deal of help. Heck, a lot of the information which led to me jumping ship to Centurion came from this forum. I'm not sure that's a good sign for Malibu, but still great that these topics can be discussed here. Every brand following seems to have a different attitude. I quite like the people I've met in the Malibu circle. In an effort to stick a little more on topic, I can't say that anybody will ever convince me that some of these QC issues we are hearing about on these M235's are acceptable. Nothing's perfect and things happen. It still isn't acceptable though. And it shouldn't have to be given the price folks such as @spikew919 likely paid for their boat. Again, no manufacturer is perfect, but that doesn't make QC issues OK. Seeing consistent issues such as levels not being topped up and loose hose clamps on what is supposed to be a "Flagship" boat just shouldn't be happening. These owners will likely spend the next few outings on their new boats wondering what else was overlooked. These issues should've been caught at the dealer level during PDI. Realistically the boats never should've left the factory in that condition though. Keeping things fair and going back to the OP's original issue, I can't see anyway that his coolant leak could've been prevented. It obviously wasn't leaking like that during the lake test given the nature of the leak. Pin hole leaks in coolant hoses can come out of nowhere. That one is literally a stroke of bad luck. So is hitting a log and bending your prop. Those can't be a reflection on Malibu's QC. I agree with those that gave flack for knocking Malibu before knowing the root of the problem. I disagree with saying that loose hose clamps and improper fluid levels upon delivery of a $150K USD + is acceptable. Especially when it has happened more than once. Same goes for zip ties and wires etc. being left in the boat. Clean up your damn mess and take some pride in the job you are being paid to do, and the product you are producing. That's not acceptable in a Bayliner, 16' Crestliner, or even a paddleboat for that matter. So why should it be acceptable in a $100K + "Handbuilt" boat.  When we take delivery of our Ri257 I will be absolutely pissed if I experience any of these issues. You gents will be the first to know about it if that's the case. That's just my opinion (which I'm aware nobody ever asked for lol).

Very well said and I cannot agree more with you.

 

However I do have to say that I did not notice anywhere that people are saying loose hose clamps, fluid levels and debris are acceptable though. Sometimes people read into a comment defending the company for negative stuff that isn't their fault as being a blanket excuse for everything. It's absolutely not the case usually.

[billjames]

Goodwill and settlement cost cannot be combined in US GAAP as far as I know. Malibu is estimating warranty cost every year based on the amount of boat sold for this specific year and the cost of those boats and their historical failure rate or warranty rate or best guess. This amount is somewhat B.S. My ratio is based on actual warranty claims paid not the estimated amount. So this ratio is showing the best case as of now. If later on, some earlier boats required repair under warranty, this ratio can only go up. For the trend to be wrong, you have to assume that the ratio will go up in 2014 and maybe 2015 but not for the 2016 boat sold, or way less so that it will be below the ratio of 2015 and 2014. So you assume ratio in 2014 and 2015 will go higher than the current one for 2016. That is you assume that Malibu already corrected path in 2016. And not a small path correction, as you assume 2014 and 2015 are really bad in term of warranty as their ratio will increase as boats will fail before their warranty expired and have not yet. You can make this assumption, even if it does not seem likely. We will have to wait up to the end of the warranty for 2014, 2015 and 2016 boats to know for sure.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwill_(accounting)

 

https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/pharma-life-sciences/pdf/med-tech-us_gaap-booklet.pdf

 

By the way, I do not go on Team talk, MC is not my type of boat, too much blink, very strong personality from the local dealership....., so cannot comment on this forum. But I do go on Planet-nautique and Wakeworld. Planet nautique is indeed managed by a person that is somewhat sponsored by nautique, but you can bash the brand to a certain point. Even this guy bashed some of nautique choices in the past if you can read between the line.

Wakeworld seems to be the most open to me. You can bash everyone, but you have a lot of trolls :). Hey, freedom of speech comes with the dark side too.

Edited April 20, 2017 by billjames

[Chattwake]

Well, one sure way to lose a privilege is to abuse it...

[NWBU]

10 minutes ago, billjames said:

Goodwill and settlement cost cannot be combined in US GAAP as far as I know.

What in the world does this mean?

[23LSVOwner]

17 minutes ago, billjames said:

Goodwill and settlement cost cannot be combined in US GAAP as far as I know. Malibu is estimating warranty cost every year based on the amount of boat sold for this specific year and the cost of those boats and their historical failure rate or warranty rate or best guess. This amount is somewhat B.S. My ratio is based on actual warranty claims paid not the estimated amount. So this ratio is showing the best case as of now. If later on, some earlier boats required repair under warranty, this ratio can only go up. For the trend to be wrong, you have to assume that the ratio will go up in 2014 and maybe 2015 but not for the 2016 boat sold, or way less so that it will be below the ratio of 2015 and 2014. So you assume ratio in 2014 and 2015 will go higher than the current one for 2016. That is you assume that Malibu already corrected path in 2016. And not a small path correction, as you assume 2014 and 2015 are really bad in term of warranty as their ratio will increase as boats will fail before their warranty expired and have not yet. You can make this assumption, even if it does not seem likely. We will have to wait up to the end of the warranty for 2014, 2015 and 2016 boats to know for sure.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwill_(accounting)

 

https://www.pwc.com/gx/en/pharma-life-sciences/pdf/med-tech-us_gaap-booklet.pdf

 

By the way, I do not go on Team talk, MC is not my type of boat, too much blink, very strong personality from the local dealership....., so cannot comment on this forum. But I do go on Planet-nautique and Wakeworld. Planet nautique is indeed managed by a person that is somewhat sponsored by nautique, but you can bash the brand to a certain point. Even this guy bashed some of nautique choices in the past if you can read between the line.

Wakeworld seems to be the most open to me. You can bash everyone, but you have a lot of trolls :). Hey, freedom of speech comes with the dark side too.

Your assumptions and not understanding on how budgeting, etc is done in the marine industry are exactly why you are incorrect. The marine industry has a standard accepted percentage of sales to warranty spend on current product. According to the people I know who do not BS with me Malibu is WELL below the industry average.

 

Honestly, I'm done trying to educate you as you are certainly either too hard headed or educated beyond your ability to comprehend.

[85 Barefoot]

1 hour ago, MaliWop said:

When we take delivery of our Ri257 I will be absolutely pissed if I experience any of these issues. You gents will be the first to know about it if that's the case. That's just my opinion (which I'm aware nobody ever asked for lol).

maliwop, 

What issues?  zip ties and washers?  Don't take this the wrong way, but are you really trading "issues" with washers and zip ties in the bilge with a boat design that literally prohibits access to the steering cable?  I'll take 10x the washers to have a boat that you can actually work on.  But, you'll probably be on your next one by the time any major work has to be done. Your dealer will love it though.  Things are going to start costing thousands upon thousands when work starts requiring engine removal like the Ris will.  I picked up I think one nut and 2 washers in my new boat.  O the travesty.

[85 Barefoot]

28 minutes ago, NWBU said:

What in the world does this mean?

GAAP is generally accepted accounting principles.  He's saying from a financial statement perspective, using GAAP, the definition of warranty claims (or whatever the noun was) must be strictly limited to those expenses.

[NWBU]

Just now, 85 Barefoot said:

GAAP is generally accepted accounting principles.  He's saying from a financial statement perspective, using GAAP, the definition of warranty claims (or whatever the noun was) must be strictly limited to those expenses.

Thanks 85 - I should've given more context above since the comment about combining goodwill and settlement cost just makes no sense. Unfortunately I actually have a pretty good handle on GAAP, which is what made the comment non-sensical.

 

[billjames]

1 hour ago, NWBU said:

What in the world does this mean?

It means if you follow US GAAP for your accounting principle, goodwill and settlement cost are two differents notions and you cannot hide your settlement cost following a lawsuit as goodwill. As you know US GAAP, you might confirm or not.

[NWBU]

7 minutes ago, billjames said:

It means if you follow US GAAP for your accounting principle, goodwill and settlement cost are two differents notions and you cannot hide your settlement cost following a lawsuit as goodwill. As you know US GAAP, you might confirm or not.

Goodwill is the excess amount a company pays to acquire another business, over and above the value of the assets and liabilities of the acquired business. Has nothing to do with anything on this forum.

[billjames]

Just now, NWBU said:

Goodwill is the excess amount a company pays to acquire another business, over and above the value of the assets and liabilities of the acquired business. Has nothing to do with anything on this forum.

Thank for your confirmation. It does not comes from me and I gave the same definition via wikipedia. It does come from 23LSVOwner who said: 

 

"Also, without knowing the actual spend on those warranty dollars you cannot really say that things are worse. Companies spend a TON of money under goodwill. Any lawsuit settlements are dumped into there, etc. You also have to consider that structural lifetime warranty. With the time that Malibu has been building boats there are a metric TON of them out there. Failures happen. I also happen to know several people at the factory."

 

 

[oldjeep]

The goodwill he is  referring to is when a mfg or dealer gives you a repair for free that technically wasn't covered under your warranty.

[oldjeep]

dup

Edited April 20, 2017 by oldjeep

[billjames]

1 hour ago, 23LSVOwner said:

 

[billjames]

Clearly misunderstood the goodwill he was talking about. if it is goodwill in the sense of a dealer Mfg effort to solve an issue out of warranty and not the accounting goodwill.

[jcon44]

So, what ever happened to the OP and his M235????

[23LSVOwner]

Just now, jcon44 said:

So, what ever happened to the OP and his M235????

His dealer found a pinhole in a hose, fixed it and was supposed to be delivering it back to him.

[spikew919]

I'm sitting on it in my drive as I type this pretending to drive it well I'm actually riding.   ? <---- this crazy guy driving ????  

[ahopkins22LSV]

Just now, spikew919 said:

I'm sitting on it in my drive as I type this pretending to drive it well I'm actually riding.   ? <---- this crazy guy driving ????  

POIDH!

Edited April 20, 2017 by ahopkinsTXi

[spikew919]

13 minutes ago, ahopkinsTXi said:

PIODH!

You can't take a pic of ? , if you do he loses his horn ??‍♂️

[spikew919]

30 minutes ago, ahopkinsTXi said:

PIODH!

Be really quiet!! He didn't see me take that. He believes he is driving ?????

[Rednucleus]

1 hour ago, spikew919 said:

Be really quiet!! He didn't see me take that. He believes he is driving ?????

Pretty sure that's going to void your warranty for all steering mounted electronics.

[bamaboy]

[IXFE]

@billjames I think it's probably time for you to stop digging.  You've completely derailed this thread with a false narrative and taken it into a ditch. I haven't engaged you (beyond the punch card which was clearly in jest) because I've been swamped this week and frankly, I really don't want to get into an accounting pissing match on a boat forum.  I don't have a clue who you are what you do for a living, but the way you're misusing certain finance/accounting terms leads me to believe this isn't your area of expertise.  Forgive me if I'm wrong and you're actually the world's foremost expert on product warranty accounting.  Just know that some of the people you're lecturing on this topic ARE in fact subject matter experts who have been doing this for a living and doing it WELL.  Another in this thread actually discussed this very matter recently with the Malibu CFO (the only true expert on this subject).  These folks are either just too nice to engage you, your posts are too hard to follow, or they realize this is not a problem easily solved with internet barbs and wikipedia links.  

As for me, I'll come right out and say it.  I have 20 years experience in accounting and corporate finance, but readily admit warranty accounting is not my thing.  I'm in software industry so when it comes to warranty accounting I know just enough to be dangerous.  If you are an expert in this area and not just a guy innocently misusing a few numbers you found I would hope you'd know that a true finance/accounting pro doesn't jump to conclusions the way you have.  Rarely is the real story that simple.  To get to the bottom of junk like this it takes hours of pouring through financial statements and footnotes and likely some t-accounts on a white board.  For example, it took me an hour to write this post (and it's the last I will comment on it because nobody is paying me for this!).  Even after an hour or reading and manager math, I'm not 100% clear on the numbers, just the theme of Malibu's efforts in this area (i.e. warranty claims are down and they are seeing improvements).  These statement came from MBUU 2016 10-K, which as you probably know is an audited document (i.e. this isn't management spin or marketing).    

• "We are committed to continuous improvement in our operations, and our efforts in this regard have resulted in higher gross margins. Specifically, we have increased labor efficiency, reduced cost of materials and
  reduced warranty claims"  
• "From July 1, 2012 to June 30, 2016, we recorded 2,601,211 consecutive man-hours with only one lost-time accident in our Tennessee facility, an accomplishment that has
  reduced workers’ compensation claims and warranty costs, as our most experienced employees continue to remain on the job."
• "In the past, we have provided limited product warranties, generally covering periods from 12 to 36 months for Malibu brand boats and 12 to 24 months for Axis brand
  boats. Effective July 1, 2015, we began providing a limited warranty for a period up to five years to our consumers for both our Malibu and Axis brand boats manufactured after this point in time. We expect the extension of our warranty coverage period to increase our obligations to cover warranty claims over time resulting in an increase in our reserve to cover these warranty claims."  This is an important point I think you may have missed when coming to your conclusion.  Even if the boats are MORE reliable than previous to this change, you will see MORE warranty $'s flowing through the PnL as well as reserves sitting on the Balance Sheet.  When Malibu sells a boat with 5 year warranty they have to assume/forecast the boat will absorb more warranty $'s simply due to the extended warranty term.  So regardless of the QC at the factory or the initial quality of the boat, Malibu is estimating more warranty repair $'s. 
•  "Factors that affect our warranty liability include the number of units sold, historical and anticipated rates of warranty claims, and cost per claim. We utilize historical trends and analytical tools to assist in determining the appropriate warranty liability. The extension of our warranty coverage period is expected to continue to increase our obligations to cover warranty claims over time resulting in an increase in our reserve to cover these warranty claims. We periodically assess the adequacy of the recorded warranty liabilities by brand and will adjust the amounts as necessary based on the best available information and trends."

*** the above statements all refer to the estimate of warranty costs that gets booked a both a cost of good sold on the PnL and a Liability on the balance sheet.  As to the actual cash outlay in a given period, keep reading...***

• In footnote 8 it clearly states that warranty claims paid in 2016 were $3.764M, or 1.49% of Revenue.  Warranty claims paid in 2015 were $3,164, or 1.38% of Revenue.  Let's assume Malibu achieved the same 1.38% in 2016... the claims paid could have been $263K lower if they had held the same 1.38%.  Does that mean the boats became suddenly less reliable in 2016?  Or just more complicated?  Or just mix shift between Axis and Malibu?  Or just normal fluctuations in the cost of parts and labor?  Or just one dealer who got aggressive on a bunch of gel coal claims, etc. etc.  We already know the number of claims went down.  My point is... you are REALLY stretching if you think this data points to a vast right wing conspiracy.  My other point is, where on earth did you get your data about warranty spend ratios, because it looks nothing like the date I'm looking at on page 93 of the 10-K linked below.

http://d18rn0p25nwr6d.cloudfront.net/CIK-0001590976/9033254c-5176-4dd2-8303-4c2a23a6237e.pdf

[RedOwl]

Just now, IXFE said:

...it took me an hour to write this post (and it's the last I will comment on it because nobody is paying me for this!).  

I hereby award you $1,000,000 @Ndawg12 bucks for such an excellent post.

Be sure to tip your waitress.