Piggy back system reviews

[nlouthan]

I'm getting ready to make this same mod to my boat, but am trying to figure out why adding the "wyes" helped.  Am I correct in saying that the original setup filled the bags first and then was supposed to overflow into the tanks?  If so, wouldn't it be effectively the same setup to just run pump to hard tank, hard tank overflow to bag and then vent the bag overboard?  Also, is the bag actually filling from the "wye" or is at least some of the water coming in through the extra hose between the hard tank and the bottom of the bag?  I can see how that line aids in draining, but see no reason why water can't go into the bag this way as well.

My plan is to go pump->hard tank->tank overflow to bottom of bag->bag overflow out the boat.  Maybe add a second hose between tank and bag, although I'm not real concerned about drain speed.  I have two portable pumps if that is ever an issue. 

Is there something flawed in my plan that I'm not seeing?

[MLA]

57 minutes ago, nlouthan said:

although I'm not real concerned about drain speed.

However, your fill time is going to be horribly slow with your plan.  

[pedel]

To answer your questions, it appears that most of the fill of the bag is coming from the wye, but I wouldn't be surprised if some is coming up from the hard tank as well.  The reason for the wye (vs. the original design) is that it eliminates the air lock issue that was causing the hard tanks not to fill.

There is one (very small) downside the wye design (which would also be true with your design).  Because the hard tank now fills before the bag, if you you use the presets the system will automatically shut off the pumps when the hard tank fills.  I've switched to hitting the 'fill all' button on the MLS rather than using the presets.  Then, before I start surfing I hit the preset to get the speed control.

In terms of your approach, I imagine it would work.  But I see two downsides.  First, I agree that it would be a slower drain.  More importantly, it would probably be a less complete drain.  It is really nice to have the sacks sucked dry and flat automatically, and I think it's important to have both sides drain to make this happen.  Second, I do think your fill time will likely be slower as well but that is just a guess.  Also, I'm not sure I understand how you could add an extra hose between the hose and the tank.  You'd have one tank outlet used for the fill and the other already going to the bag.  And, I'm not sure I understand the upside of what your proposing?

I've been super happy with the 'wye' design.

Good luck!

[nlouthan]

MLA - What is going to make the fill times slow?  

pedel - I don't have the ballast preset system (the pumps run until shut off manually), so that's not an issue.  The goal is to have a system where I can put the extra bags in or take them out.  I only use extra bags for surfing.

[MLA]

14 minutes ago, nlouthan said:

 

MLA - What is going to make the fill times slow?  

 

Once the hard tank is full, you begin to push vent flow out and into the sac. This greatly increases the head pressure on an aerator pump thats already down 25%. Even more reduction going into the bottom of the sac as opposed to going into the top. As the sac fills, head pressure is increased even further. 

[Technicallyabu]

I disagree. The highest point in the system is the antisyphon valve. Thats the hardest the pump has to work since its the point of maximum total head. Either arrangement discussed above will have similar fill times.

[gobble]

I tried your pumping into the hard tanks with overflow to the bag before I tried the Y solution. The problem is that you build up so much pressure in the tank that you end up pumping as much water through the drain pump as you do into the bag. Adding the Y gives the water an easier flow into the bag once the hard tank is full.

Edited October 11, 2016 by gobble

[vanamp]

11 minutes ago, gobble said:

I tried your pumping into the hard tanks with overflow to the bag before I tried the Y solution. The problem is that you build up so much pressure in the tank that you end up pumping as much water through the drain pump as you do into the bag. Adding the Y gives the water an easier flow into the bag once the hard tank is full.

+1.  I see half my water pour out the dain hole.  When we are in a hurry to ride we each pick a side and plug the drain to speed it up.  

I have my winter project prewired for independent pumps.  Soon this head ache will be behind me.  

 

 

[Technicallyabu]

I added inline valves to the drain line.  Its sort of annoying having to switch them before you drain but its simpler, cheaper and easier than adding new pumps and hose.

[MLA]

1 hour ago, gobble said:

I tried your pumping into the hard tanks with overflow to the bag before I tried the Y solution. The problem is that you build up so much pressure in the tank that you end up pumping as much water through the drain pump as you do into the bag. Adding the Y gives the water an easier flow into the bag once the hard tank is full.

So you found that water took the path of least resistance as opposed to pushing through the tank vent into the sac above?

[nlouthan]

On 10/11/2016 at 10:42 AM, gobble said:

I tried your pumping into the hard tanks with overflow to the bag before I tried the Y solution. The problem is that you build up so much pressure in the tank that you end up pumping as much water through the drain pump as you do into the bag. Adding the Y gives the water an easier flow into the bag once the hard tank is full.

Was your drain pump line out the boat lower than the top of the bag?  If so, that would make sense.

[gobble]

13 hours ago, nlouthan said:

Was your drain pump line out the boat lower than the top of the bag?  If so, that would make sense.

The drain pump line connects to the hard tank which is below the bag, yes. But this wasn't a gravity thing. It's that the water has less resistance getting past the pump than going up into the bag. The Y gives the water a new path into the bag vs. forcing it into a full tank.

[BruCru]

Wow, what an enlightening (long) thread.  I just bought the WM 700's for a '16 25 LSV.  All that I got in the kit were the bags... absolutely nothing else.  I have not had a chance to install these but I notice that most people with issues are in 2012 model boats.  So the question is will I have the same issues in my '16.  On a continued note, they don't even send directions on how to hook them up.  That video on the '12 VLX is very enlightening but I suspect my system is a little different.  Anyone have insight on how my setup would be different? (if at all).

[MLA]

14 hours ago, BruCru said:

All that I got in the kit were the bags.

Are you sure you chose a "kit" and not just ordered two ballast sacs? 

[BruCru]

10 hours ago, MLA said:

Are you sure you chose a "kit" and not just ordered two ballast sacs? 

 Wake makers says that it is a complete kit. My buddy just bought a 2015 VLX  from ChatWake and  it has the bags only attached to the drain ports suggesting the bag fills from the hard tank up....?  One bag had a manual vent and the other did not.  The hard ballast tank vent would have to be above the top of the bag for this work which I think it is and the pump would have to be able able to handle the head of water to the top of the bag.

[csparks13]

I'm also interested in this system.  Are these issues concentrated on certain year models or the system design itself? I just need to add weight to the rear lockers on an 05 Wakesetter LSV.

[skicrave]

On 11/8/2016 at 10:08 PM, BruCru said:

 Wake makers says that it is a complete kit. My buddy just bought a 2015 VLX  from ChatWake and  it has the bags only attached to the drain ports suggesting the bag fills from the hard tank up....?  One bag had a manual vent and the other did not.  The hard ballast tank vent would have to be above the top of the bag for this work which I think it is and the pump would have to be able able to handle the head of water to the top of the bag.

You have everything you need for your boat. 2013+ boats with Hi-Flo are a completely different animal because Malibu added the additional connections that are needed to the hard tank, so all that's needed is the optimized bag with the correct connectors (and ideally the AutoVent upgrade).

[SnubNose]

So I looked back into getting this system since the first one I bought from wakemakers wasn't very good (Air locked constantly)

It still looks like Bakes makes the superior system with a dedicated drain pump and a multi direction valve that flips over from the hard tank to the bag from the factory pump. 

The only problem I see with the Bakes system is that it is the smaller 3/4 hose. 

Does anyone know if Bakes offers the larger diameter parts for the later 2012 boats ?

[erikj]

On 9/20/2016 at 9:04 AM, Big_Moose_Wakesetter said:

I've been following this thread as I've been wanting to add to my stock ballast and toiling over reversible pumps vs a piggyback system.  My 2005 VLX stock ballast has 3/4" lines and 800gph pumps.  Does anyone with a similar setup have a decent ballpark of how long it takes to fill piggyback 250 hard tank plus a bag (750 - 900 or so)?  I'm assuming it'll be about double the time it takes to fill the stock 500 mid hard tank.

On a semi-related note, I haven't been able to find much on Wakemakers' 910lb rear LBS bags that they're now packaging with the piggyback system for my boat.  I'm considering those or the 850 sumo max bags (probably would get a package with the bow sac and use the pump for that).  Any fit comparisons or glowing recommendations for the Wakemakers bags? Thanks!!!

I got the wakemakers piggyback with the fly high bags in a 07 23lsv and either I'm drinking a lot of beer or just oblivious but I literally think they fill completely in like 10 minutes.  Drain seems a little longer but overall I have been really happy with the system and not once have I been annoyed about filling or draining.  That said I've only been out a handful of times since I got them but the wave is massive and with my homemade suction gate it is clean...  I think it might be a little short for some people but my crew is pretty new so we aren't throwing crazy tricks or anything so might have to tweak it later on for a longer wave.  Plus I think I saved quite a bit of money and wait time getting the fly highs. 

[SnubNose]

Just now, erikj said:

I got the wakemakers piggyback with the fly high bags in a 07 23lsv and either I'm drinking a lot of beer or just oblivious but I literally think they fill completely in like 10 minutes.  Drain seems a little longer but overall I have been really happy with the system and not once have I been annoyed about filling or draining.  That said I've only been out a handful of times since I got them but the wave is massive and with my homemade suction gate it is clean...  I think it might be a little short for some people but my crew is pretty new so we aren't throwing crazy tricks or anything so might have to tweak it later on for a longer wave.  Plus I think I saved quite a bit of money and wait time getting the fly highs. 

When they drain do they go completely flat ? 

No air lock ? 

[erikj]

Just now, SnubNose said:

When they drain do they go completely flat ? 

No air lock ? 

well they go flat but seems to be a little water in the very bottom of the bags

[Big_Moose_Wakesetter]

On 7/18/2017 at 8:30 PM, erikj said:

I got the wakemakers piggyback with the fly high bags in a 07 23lsv and either I'm drinking a lot of beer or just oblivious but I literally think they fill completely in like 10 minutes.  Drain seems a little longer but overall I have been really happy with the system and not once have I been annoyed about filling or draining.  That said I've only been out a handful of times since I got them but the wave is massive and with my homemade suction gate it is clean...  I think it might be a little short for some people but my crew is pretty new so we aren't throwing crazy tricks or anything so might have to tweak it later on for a longer wave.  Plus I think I saved quite a bit of money and wait time getting the fly highs. 

Thanks for the feedback.  I ended up going with 3 reversible pumps, Wakemakers 920's in the lockers and a Flyhigh 1000 in the bow.  Pretty happy with it all.  I rarely go out with anyone that has much interest in surfing so simplicity makes it more likely I'll get to go myself...

[SnubNose]

Confirmed. 2 Y's on both sides fixed the air lock issues. 

[gobble]

If anyone questions Wakemakers customer service over this debacle where we had to find a fix for their flawed design on our own, I can state after some interaction with them today that their customer service hasn't gotten any better.

[SnubNose]

41 minutes ago, gobble said:

If anyone questions Wakemakers customer service over this debacle where we had to find a fix for their flawed design on our own, I can state after some interaction with them today that their customer service hasn't gotten any better.

It's so trash. Can't get on the phone with them for hours and they completely avoid that they are still selling a product that doesn't work.