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Need slalom help....


spinxt

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Over the weekend, I took out a video camera to record some slalom passes in an effort to improve my form. Before taping the session, it was pointed out to me by some ski buddies that I was "standing up" as I crossed the wake instead of pulling all the way through. Being aware of this now, it was my goal to correct the problem this time out. Well, I'm now pulling all the way through the wakes, however I feel like once I hit the first wake, I bounce so hard that I loose complete control. What could be causing this bouncing? Am I not on edge enough? Is this normal and something I'm just not used to? For some background, I have an RLX and I'm skiing at 28' off (i think); yellow section...so there's not a huge bump to cross. Any suggestions? It's driving me nuts Crazy.gif

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The wake scares everyone at first. Why don't you go back to a 75 ft rope? If you are (and you are) still pulling up at the wakes you are not ready for shortline yet. Get the fundamentals down first before you develop to many bad habits. Remember you have to learn to walk before you can run. You are definitely not on edge enough when hitting the wakes or your ski would cut right through them. At the wakes you should be at maximum lean and pull. When this is the case, you do not even feel the wakes. Don't go outside the wake so far and just cut back and forth until you are more comfortable with the wake crossings. Another cause might be you a putting to much weight on your back foot. I like to think I am putting equal weight on both feet, but in reality I doubt I am.

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I would recommend working on your form on dry land. Keep the hips up, knees bent, arms straight and handle tight to your hip. Tie off the rope to a tree or pole and practice this form. I noticed that when I got this form down I didn't even feel the wakes when I crossed them. It's really scary hitting the wakes at speed when you are out of position. You will go out the front and It hurts. I would stick with 15 off (60' rope) and just practice crossing the wakes. What speeds are you running, and are you in the course?

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Not in the course yet....I'm running about 30-32 mph. If this helps at all, when I do hit the wake and bounce off it, I feel like I'm going to go over the front of the ski (even though I am leaning back.

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Over the weekend, I took out a video camera to record some slalom passes in an effort to improve my form. Before taping the session, it was pointed out to me by some ski buddies that I was "standing up" as I crossed the wake instead of pulling all the way through. Being aware of this now, it was my goal to correct the problem this time out. Well, I'm now pulling all the way through the wakes, however I feel like once I hit the first wake, I bounce so hard that I loose complete control. What could be causing this bouncing? Am I not on edge enough? Is this normal and something I'm just not used to? For some background, I have an RLX and I'm skiing at 28' off (i think); yellow section...so there's not a huge bump to cross. Any suggestions? It's driving me nuts Crazy.gif

It's not just the standing up part that hurts skiers. Just before the boat picks you up from your turn you need to get your elbows snugged into your vest and you need to minimize the distance from the handle to your hips. Then hold that position through both wakes and keep the tension on the line mostly on your "down arm"( arm furthest away from boat). Minimizing the distance of the handle and hips is accomplished by your elbows, as explained above, and by pushing away, evenly, on your ski as the boat picks you up.

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I know I do not stay on edge enough through the wakes and I'm sure this is wrong form, but when I cross I keep my upper body "quiet" and let my knees suck up the bump. I have never not felt the wake and must be too chicken to heel over for more edge through the wake. Any exercises or other mental games that will help me not be a chikcen s hit?

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Over the weekend, I took out a video camera to record some slalom passes in an effort to improve my form. Before taping the session, it was pointed out to me by some ski buddies that I was "standing up" as I crossed the wake instead of pulling all the way through. Being aware of this now, it was my goal to correct the problem this time out. Well, I'm now pulling all the way through the wakes, however I feel like once I hit the first wake, I bounce so hard that I loose complete control. What could be causing this bouncing? Am I not on edge enough? Is this normal and something I'm just not used to? For some background, I have an RLX and I'm skiing at 28' off (i think); yellow section...so there's not a huge bump to cross. Any suggestions? It's driving me nuts Crazy.gif

It's not just the standing up part that hurts skiers. Just before the boat picks you up from your turn you need to get your elbows snugged into your vest and you need to minimize the distance from the handle to your hips. Then hold that position through both wakes and keep the tension on the line mostly on your "down arm"( arm furthest away from boat). Minimizing the distance of the handle and hips is accomplished by your elbows, as explained above, and by pushing away, evenly, on your ski as the boat picks you up.

When I make the turn I feel like I am going to just tip over into the drink (and have some times) but other times the boat kicks in and I survive, but I am just not consistant. So turns are pretty darned good, and others just plain pathetic.

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It's really scary hitting the wakes at speed when you are out of position. You will go out the front and It hurts. I would stick with 15 off ... and just practice crossing the wakes.
It's not just the standing up part that hurts skiers. Just before the boat picks you up from your turn you need to get your elbows snugged into your vest and you need to minimize the distance from the handle to your hips. Then hold that position through both wakes and keep the tension on the line mostly on your "down arm"( arm furthest away from boat). Minimizing the distance of the handle and hips is accomplished by your elbows, as explained above, and by pushing away, evenly, on your ski as the boat picks you up.

Go to 15 off first thing. Do practice what skisix is saying. I would add, do not focus your eyes on the wake. When you come out of your cut and establish your best angle of attack...hold that and focus eyes down the rope to the boat. Don't look at or even think about the wake and pull all the way through, then look to set up next turn.

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Over the weekend, I took out a video camera to record some slalom passes in an effort to improve my form. Before taping the session, it was pointed out to me by some ski buddies that I was "standing up" as I crossed the wake instead of pulling all the way through. Being aware of this now, it was my goal to correct the problem this time out. Well, I'm now pulling all the way through the wakes, however I feel like once I hit the first wake, I bounce so hard that I loose complete control. What could be causing this bouncing? Am I not on edge enough? Is this normal and something I'm just not used to? For some background, I have an RLX and I'm skiing at 28' off (i think); yellow section...so there's not a huge bump to cross. Any suggestions? It's driving me nuts Crazy.gif

It's not just the standing up part that hurts skiers. Just before the boat picks you up from your turn you need to get your elbows snugged into your vest and you need to minimize the distance from the handle to your hips. Then hold that position through both wakes and keep the tension on the line mostly on your "down arm"( arm furthest away from boat). Minimizing the distance of the handle and hips is accomplished by your elbows, as explained above, and by pushing away, evenly, on your ski as the boat picks you up.

When I make the turn I feel like I am going to just tip over into the drink (and have some times) but other times the boat kicks in and I survive, but I am just not consistant. So turns are pretty darned good, and others just plain pathetic.

I'd say there's a better chance than not that you are allowing your head to tilt as you lean around the turn. that causes your balance to go to the tail of the ski and provides you with the sensation that you described.

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If you are skiing the 2000 RLX there really isn't a wake at 15 or 22 off. It's pretty soft. It's not like the 95-96 hull of another brand that was like hitting a huge cement speed bump at 15 and 22 but if you could hang at 15 and 22 on that boat then cutting to 28/32 was like heaven.

Edited by Rod S
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Over the weekend, I took out a video camera to record some slalom passes in an effort to improve my form. Before taping the session, it was pointed out to me by some ski buddies that I was "standing up" as I crossed the wake instead of pulling all the way through. Being aware of this now, it was my goal to correct the problem this time out. Well, I'm now pulling all the way through the wakes, however I feel like once I hit the first wake, I bounce so hard that I loose complete control. What could be causing this bouncing? Am I not on edge enough? Is this normal and something I'm just not used to? For some background, I have an RLX and I'm skiing at 28' off (i think); yellow section...so there's not a huge bump to cross. Any suggestions? It's driving me nuts Crazy.gif

It's not just the standing up part that hurts skiers. Just before the boat picks you up from your turn you need to get your elbows snugged into your vest and you need to minimize the distance from the handle to your hips. Then hold that position through both wakes and keep the tension on the line mostly on your "down arm"( arm furthest away from boat). Minimizing the distance of the handle and hips is accomplished by your elbows, as explained above, and by pushing away, evenly, on your ski as the boat picks you up.

When I make the turn I feel like I am going to just tip over into the drink (and have some times) but other times the boat kicks in and I survive, but I am just not consistant. So turns are pretty darned good, and others just plain pathetic.

I'd say there's a better chance than not that you are allowing your head to tilt as you lean around the turn. that causes your balance to go to the tail of the ski and provides you with the sensation that you described.

Yes.gifYes.gifYes.gif Greg was big on this at the clinic with me. When I avoid this and keep my head level, I stay off the tail and get great angle on my offside. Greg's clinic tip was to think about bring my ear to my shoulder (left ear to left shoulder around 2//4/6), which actually forced me to keep my head level in the turn.

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Lots of good info for you here. As you finish the turn, make sure you get into a knees bent, hips up to the handle position. This may also serve to keep your shoulders back, so you don't break at the waist, and avoid the feeling of going over forward. Let us know how you're doing!

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im going to add a little more of a new school idea here than what has been mentioned...

when you come out of the turn the idea is get to the other side as quick as you can, in the best position right? ideally this happens with MINIMAL TENSION ON THE ROPE, because you have ideally carried speed through the turn. now, if this is not the case and you loose too much speed, the natural instinct is to fall back on the ski with your weight on your back foot. Moving your weight or your centre of mass (COM) onto your back foot does not allow you to get you to the other side as good as you would like. moving your COM back or away from the boat inhibits your abiltiy to maxamise speed(you want to move laterally not backwards, so why fall back on the ski?), you load the line, probably onto your back arm, with great force and when you hit the wakes...BANG. the boat wins and you come off second best, the tip rises and you loose direction off the second wake. because you have to loose the tension on the line you are normally pulled towards the boat instead of casting free and away from it..

seth has a great article on this page, read 'where to be on that ski'... http://www.h2osmosis.com/tip.php3

:skiing:

Edited by Toby
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It can be hard to self assess if you're attacking the wake if you don't have a course as you have no idea of the timing and rhythm required. As I didn't have access to a course I free skied for a long time thinking I was doing ok. However big shock for me when given access to a course was that I my timing was really slow and I needed to make twice as many turns and cuts in the given time ! I wasn't edging effectively through the wakes at all as free skiing I thought I was crossing quickly enough already.

Give this a try. It can be very humbling to a 'gun' open water skier. The ideal pass time to run full course is approx 19 seconds at 30mph so have a person in your boat yell out 'turn' (or press the boat horn) every say 3 seconds.

If you're out wide and making a turn each call you're probably doing ok speed wise through the wakes so just need to work on stance etc. But if you're two calls behind as I would have been, you know your defineitely not edging through and you need to lift your rhythm rate. Try it.

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im going to add a little more of a new school idea here than what has been mentioned...

when you come out of the turn the idea is get to the other side as quick as you can, in the best position right? ideally this happens with MINIMAL TENSION ON THE ROPE, because you have ideally carried speed through the turn. now, if this is not the case and you loose too much speed, the natural instinct is to fall back on the ski with your weight on your back foot. Moving your weight or your centre of mass (COM) onto your back foot does not allow you to get you to the other side as good as you would like. moving your COM back or away from the boat inhibits your abiltiy to maxamise speed(you want to move laterally not backwards, so why fall back on the ski?), you load the line, probably onto your back arm, with great force and when you hit the wakes...BANG. the boat wins and you come off second best, the tip rises and you loose direction off the second wake. because you have to loose the tension on the line you are normally pulled towards the boat instead of casting free and away from it..

seth has a great article on this page, read 'where to be on that ski'... http://www.h2osmosis.com/tip.php3

:skiing:

Toby- nothing against you because I think you are just re-posting something that someone else said. And they said in such a way that is sounds really technical and that it must have come from someone who really is a good skier. I, however, can't use a single thing that was printed above in use on my slalom ski and I can dispute ever single point on there! Show me pictures of what you( or Seth if that is the case) mean and point out where those things are happening.

What does minimal mean?

what did I do to fall back?

Why does going to my back foot minimize my ability to create speed?

....

Link to comment
im going to add a little more of a new school idea here than what has been mentioned...

when you come out of the turn the idea is get to the other side as quick as you can, in the best position right? ideally this happens with MINIMAL TENSION ON THE ROPE, because you have ideally carried speed through the turn. now, if this is not the case and you loose too much speed, the natural instinct is to fall back on the ski with your weight on your back foot. Moving your weight or your centre of mass (COM) onto your back foot does not allow you to get you to the other side as good as you would like. moving your COM back or away from the boat inhibits your abiltiy to maxamise speed(you want to move laterally not backwards, so why fall back on the ski?), you load the line, probably onto your back arm, with great force and when you hit the wakes...BANG. the boat wins and you come off second best, the tip rises and you loose direction off the second wake. because you have to loose the tension on the line you are normally pulled towards the boat instead of casting free and away from it..

seth has a great article on this page, read 'where to be on that ski'... http://www.h2osmosis.com/tip.php3

:skiing:

Toby- nothing against you because I think you are just re-posting something that someone else said. And they said in such a way that is sounds really technical and that it must have come from someone who really is a good skier. I, however, can't use a single thing that was printed above in use on my slalom ski and I can dispute ever single point on there! Show me pictures of what you( or Seth if that is the case) mean and point out where those things are happening.

What does minimal mean?

what did I do to fall back?

Why does going to my back foot minimize my ability to create speed?

....

While I agree the writeup is a little confusing, this is actually something I've been working on this at ball 1. Sometimes I get the "falling back" feeling as I finish the turn, then get pulled out of position & lose angle when I hook up. Sometimes it's the result of earlier problems (handle control in particular!). However, but many times it's just simply a balance issue at the finish of the turn before loading up.

The end result for me is a little different than the writeup. Since it's my onside, I can take the hit, but I lose angle BEFORE the wake (not after as the writeup suggests), making me late (and on my tail) going into ball 2.

By staying more centered on the ski throughout the turn, including the finish, the ski keeps it's speed and much smoother turn allowing me to keep my angle going into ball 2.

Greg, it starts with the gate changes & handle control you had me working on, but I think there's something to the concept behind the writeup...IIRC, it's similiar to the West Coast Slalom DVD "second gear acceleration" concept.

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im going to add a little more of a new school idea here than what has been mentioned...

when you come out of the turn the idea is get to the other side as quick as you can, in the best position right? ideally this happens with MINIMAL TENSION ON THE ROPE, because you have ideally carried speed through the turn. now, if this is not the case and you loose too much speed, the natural instinct is to fall back on the ski with your weight on your back foot. Moving your weight or your centre of mass (COM) onto your back foot does not allow you to get you to the other side as good as you would like. moving your COM back or away from the boat inhibits your abiltiy to maxamise speed(you want to move laterally not backwards, so why fall back on the ski?), you load the line, probably onto your back arm, with great force and when you hit the wakes...BANG. the boat wins and you come off second best, the tip rises and you loose direction off the second wake. because you have to loose the tension on the line you are normally pulled towards the boat instead of casting free and away from it..

seth has a great article on this page, read 'where to be on that ski'... http://www.h2osmosis.com/tip.php3

:skiing:

Toby- nothing against you because I think you are just re-posting something that someone else said. And they said in such a way that is sounds really technical and that it must have come from someone who really is a good skier. I, however, can't use a single thing that was printed above in use on my slalom ski and I can dispute ever single point on there! Show me pictures of what you( or Seth if that is the case) mean and point out where those things are happening.

What does minimal mean?

what did I do to fall back?

Why does going to my back foot minimize my ability to create speed?

....

skisix, firstly you are by far the best skier on this site and its great reading your posts. i am no where near as good of a skier as you but i feel my knowledge of the sport is far beyond obsessive and i have a problem with it Crazy.gif

i give considerable amounts of thought into skiing technique and theory, skis and setups. i have been fortunate enough to have coaching off some of the best coaches in the world including chet raley, seth stisher, trent finlayson, hiro kurisawa. yes i did not read every post word for word above mine and i replied because i thought i could provide (along with many other great points above), my insight into the original question... what i wrote is 100% MY WORDS and did not take it from anywhere. like any instruction with skiing there is always a different take on things which is great to debate and discuss.

i didnt put a great deal of time into what i wrote, probably not enough it seems to try and explain what i wanted to say. yes it was quite conceptual and not move here do this.

i guess i was trying to point out the importance of balance.

i will definately reply to your three (or more if you like skisix) questions later on in the next day or so (bit busy now) and i look foward to what you have to say about my take on things and hear what your take on slalom is....

stay tuned ROFL.gif

Edited by Toby
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Over the weekend, I took out a video camera to record some slalom passes in an effort to improve my form. Before taping the session, it was pointed out to me by some ski buddies that I was "standing up" as I crossed the wake instead of pulling all the way through. Being aware of this now, it was my goal to correct the problem this time out. Well, I'm now pulling all the way through the wakes, however I feel like once I hit the first wake, I bounce so hard that I loose complete control. What could be causing this bouncing? Am I not on edge enough? Is this normal and something I'm just not used to? For some background, I have an RLX and I'm skiing at 28' off (i think); yellow section...so there's not a huge bump to cross. Any suggestions? It's driving me nuts Crazy.gif

I was doing the same thing big time but I corrected it with a little pointer from Chris Parrish who happened to be spotting in the HO demo boat at the INT Nationals. You're rear leg is too stiff as you hit the wakes. Soften (bend) the rear knee out of the turn and your problem is solved. Let me know how it goes!

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im going to add a little more of a new school idea here than what has been mentioned...

when you come out of the turn the idea is get to the other side as quick as you can, in the best position right? ideally this happens with MINIMAL TENSION ON THE ROPE, because you have ideally carried speed through the turn. now, if this is not the case and you loose too much speed, the natural instinct is to fall back on the ski with your weight on your back foot. Moving your weight or your centre of mass (COM) onto your back foot does not allow you to get you to the other side as good as you would like. moving your COM back or away from the boat inhibits your abiltiy to maxamise speed(you want to move laterally not backwards, so why fall back on the ski?), you load the line, probably onto your back arm, with great force and when you hit the wakes...BANG. the boat wins and you come off second best, the tip rises and you loose direction off the second wake. because you have to loose the tension on the line you are normally pulled towards the boat instead of casting free and away from it..

seth has a great article on this page, read 'where to be on that ski'... http://www.h2osmosis.com/tip.php3

:skiing:

Toby- nothing against you because I think you are just re-posting something that someone else said. And they said in such a way that is sounds really technical and that it must have come from someone who really is a good skier. I, however, can't use a single thing that was printed above in use on my slalom ski and I can dispute ever single point on there! Show me pictures of what you( or Seth if that is the case) mean and point out where those things are happening.

What does minimal mean?

what did I do to fall back?

Why does going to my back foot minimize my ability to create speed?

....

skisix, firstly you are by far the best skier on this site and its great reading your posts. i am no where near as good of a skier as you but i feel my knowledge of the sport is far beyond obsessive and i have a problem with it Crazy.gif

i give considerable amounts of thought into skiing technique and theory, skis and setups. i have been fortunate enough to have coaching off some of the best coaches in the world including chet raley, seth stisher, trent finlayson, hiro kurisawa. yes i did not read every post word for word above mine and i replied because i thought i could provide (along with many other great points above), my insight into the original question... what i wrote is 100% MY WORDS and did not take it from anywhere. like any instruction with skiing there is always a different take on things which is great to debate and discuss.

i didnt put a great deal of time into what i wrote, probably not enough it seems to try and explain what i wanted to say. yes it was quite conceptual and not move here do this.

i guess i was trying to point out the importance of balance.

i will definately reply to your three (or more if you like skisix) questions later on in the next day or so (bit busy now) and i look foward to what you have to say about my take on things and hear what your take on slalom is....

stay tuned ROFL.gif

My intention was not to cut anyone or any concept down. I'm just pointing out that the words you used don't have any tell tell signs of some physical movement or principle that was the root cause of the symptom. The op was asking about how to cure his symptoms and there is always a root cause to that.

That's all Toby, I don't mean any offense to you I was just trying to get at what actions to do on a ski to ski properly. You posted some good new school concepts that a well versed skier may understand but may not know how to implement.

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While I agree the writeup is a little confusing, this is actually something I've been working on this at ball 1. Sometimes I get the "falling back" feeling as I finish the turn, then get pulled out of position & lose angle when I hook up. Sometimes it's the result of earlier problems (handle control in particular!). However, but many times it's just simply a balance issue at the finish of the turn before loading up.

The end result for me is a little different than the writeup. Since it's my onside, I can take the hit, but I lose angle BEFORE the wake (not after as the writeup suggests), making me late (and on my tail) going into ball 2.

By staying more centered on the ski throughout the turn, including the finish, the ski keeps it's speed and much smoother turn allowing me to keep my angle going into ball 2.

Greg, it starts with the gate changes & handle control you had me working on, but I think there's something to the concept behind the writeup...IIRC, it's similiar to the West Coast Slalom DVD "second gear acceleration" concept.

Kevin - this happens to you because you tilt your head and that causes a weight shift towards the tail of the ski. I saw that when we skied at the clinic. Not tilting your head is something that I can tell you to change at a specific point in the slalom course that will better your skiing. Something physical you can grasp onto and something at a finite point in the course. When you keep your head level your weight will stay where it was going into the turn, you were mostly balanced at that point, this allows the ski to arc around and provides a greater chance for the boat to load your hips first and not your shoulder- this is a west coast slalom thing and it works.

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While I agree the writeup is a little confusing, this is actually something I've been working on this at ball 1. Sometimes I get the "falling back" feeling as I finish the turn, then get pulled out of position & lose angle when I hook up. Sometimes it's the result of earlier problems (handle control in particular!). However, but many times it's just simply a balance issue at the finish of the turn before loading up.

The end result for me is a little different than the writeup. Since it's my onside, I can take the hit, but I lose angle BEFORE the wake (not after as the writeup suggests), making me late (and on my tail) going into ball 2.

By staying more centered on the ski throughout the turn, including the finish, the ski keeps it's speed and much smoother turn allowing me to keep my angle going into ball 2.

Greg, it starts with the gate changes & handle control you had me working on, but I think there's something to the concept behind the writeup...IIRC, it's similiar to the West Coast Slalom DVD "second gear acceleration" concept.

Kevin - this happens to you because you tilt your head and that causes a weight shift towards the tail of the ski. I saw that when we skied at the clinic. Not tilting your head is something that I can tell you to change at a specific point in the slalom course that will better your skiing. Something physical you can grasp onto and something at a finite point in the course. When you keep your head level your weight will stay where it was going into the turn, you were mostly balanced at that point, this allows the ski to arc around and provides a greater chance for the boat to load your hips first and not your shoulder- this is a west coast slalom thing and it works.

I'm finding that it still happens (usually at 1) even when I focus on keeping my head level around the buoy. It could be that I need to think about keeping it level longer out of the turn (I know should be all times :) ). When I combined the head level out at the ball with staying more centered w/ my hips as I finished and waiting a little longer to load up, it seemed to help.

I'll try thinking about keeping the head level longer (looking at back of boat when hooking up) tomorrow and will see if that helps.

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Alright I don't get it....I went out tonight and cut out to my right, turned and pulled back to my left, hit the wake and got nearly 2 feet of air!!!! I looked down and found I had accidentally strapped on my wakeboard :blush:

I was bummed I didn't get the opportunity to try out all the great tips that you all gave me. I had the family out this evening from 6-9pm and I only go one set on the wakeboard....no slalom. I'll have to wait until next week (going away for a wedding this weekend).

Thanks again to all who responded.

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im going to add a little more of a new school idea here than what has been mentioned...

when you come out of the turn the idea is get to the other side as quick as you can, in the best position right? ideally this happens with MINIMAL TENSION ON THE ROPE, because you have ideally carried speed through the turn. now, if this is not the case and you loose too much speed, the natural instinct is to fall back on the ski with your weight on your back foot. Moving your weight or your centre of mass (COM) onto your back foot does not allow you to get you to the other side as good as you would like. moving your COM back or away from the boat inhibits your abiltiy to maxamise speed(you want to move laterally not backwards, so why fall back on the ski?), you load the line, probably onto your back arm, with great force and when you hit the wakes...BANG. the boat wins and you come off second best, the tip rises and you loose direction off the second wake. because you have to loose the tension on the line you are normally pulled towards the boat instead of casting free and away from it..

seth has a great article on this page, read 'where to be on that ski'... http://www.h2osmosis.com/tip.php3

:skiing:

Im confused toby where is my centre of mass?

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Lots of good info here but no one has mentioned the eyes. Your head follows your eyes and your body follows your head.

I'm curious as to what others focus their eyes on throughout the course. I was told a few years ago to look cross course at the next buoy, that this would keep my head level.

As you near the next bouy and it's apparent that the arc you have started and the momentum you have will carry you around it, look away from the bouy you are about to round and look cross course at the next one. Your head will turn with your eyes and your body will follow.

This worked well for me.

Combining the info from previous posts in this thread about body position coming out of the buoy and thinking about my eyes and head movements have really helped. But standing up mid-course is something I'm always working on. Maybe I'm tired, maybe I'm lazy, maybe I'm distracted, maybe it's just bad form. Whatever it is, it will pop up every few sets or so.

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