Integrated Bow Sack

[VLXRonnie]

Steck...Have you decided a course of action? holes or no holes, Manifold or "T" of something? Personally, I am leaning toward a manifold. Still a little unsure about the hole drilling. Its like disarming a bomb, you'll only get one chance and we all know how long the turn around time at the dealer shops are. There goes our summer. But that could be just my experience.

[Steck]

yeah actually I am thinking no holes and going with a manifold, I am placing my order for the sac tomarrow. I acutally just got a pump from wakeside today, and I already have another pump. So I think I can get this project rolling pretty quickly, its just a matter of how can i get the switch so that the sac will function factory. I guess I should call my dealer tomarrow when I order the sac. I'll post a drawing of what I expect to do tomarrow.

[Steck]

This is what I plan to do. Let me know if you see any flaws.

[Steck]

So I checked the boat today to see what I need switch wise...and when check the midship ballast for some reason it start tripping itself when the switch was set to drain...anyone have this problem I can seem to figure out why...the plugs are all inserted correctly....any ideas?

[VLXRonnie]

This is what I plan to do. Let me know if you see any flaws.

That's what I was thinking as well. It looks good as far as I can tell. Are you planning on adding any check valves or shut off valves? I remember reading about check valves on the suction, vent, and drain lines. They will prevent cross filling from the vent and draining lines. While a 1/4 turn ball valve as an emergency shut off for the suction.

[WakeGirl]

I would stay away from the Simer pump for a few big reasons. They can't run dry or else you'll burn up the impeller. Also, they're quite loud. You may think thaat you can muffle the sound, but you'll still hear a whirring sound and it's constant. It WILL drive you nuts. I learned that from experience. Lastly, they are slow. Aerator pumps are at least twice as fast and totally silent.

Great points for the aerator pumps.

Okay, I'll give you some points for the Simers.

• They're totally reliable & self priming. You don't ever have to deal with air lock or the pump not priming, it will always work.
  
• Yes, they're slower. But they're faster than a system that's always dealing with prime or air lock issues.
  
• You can put them anywhere without the worry that they won't prime.
  
• A Simer will keep water from coming in, acting as its own check valve (they don't, however, keep water from flowing back through them if the pressure from the bag is great enough). Aerators don't do that.
  
• They are reversible (& yes, they are strong enough to pump back out through the intake in the bottom of the boat).
  
• They are strong enough to suck a bag dry & turn it into something resembling a raisin.
  

The most reliable system that I've ever built or even had in a boat (& that includes the stock systems that Malibu builds in) had a Simer as the base pump. No, it wasn't screaming fast (I think it took 7-8 minutes to fill a 500 pounder), but it worked really, really well. That was a simple system that filled & emptied through the same hole in the bottom of the boat (I reversed the pump). I've actually got 2 Simers on order to swap for the aerators that are the current fill pumps in my rear bags. I'm sick of air lock & prime issues, & just want the system to work when I flip the switch.

So take that FWIW. If your primary consideration is speed, then you'll have sacrifices & compromises that will need to be made in other areas. That can affect the reliability of the system. Just remember, the closer to the actual raw water pickup that you can place an aerator, the better off you'll be.

For the drill bit, get a Unibit from Home Depot. That's the best for drilling through the gel, goes through it like butter. Once you get to the fiberglass, you can switch over to a regular bit, although we've never had much problem just going all the way through with the Unibit.

[VLXRonnie]

So I checked the boat today to see what I need switch wise...and when check the midship ballast for some reason it start tripping itself when the switch was set to drain...anyone have this problem I can seem to figure out why...the plugs are all inserted correctly....any ideas?

When you say tripping itself, do you mean popping circuit breakers? Non-the-less whether is popping breakers or not I have absolutely no experience with ballast pumps . I hope someone on the crew could assist...Sorry, I wish I could be more help...

Edited May 5, 2007 by VLXRonnie

[VLXRonnie]

I would stay away from the Simer pump for a few big reasons. They can't run dry or else you'll burn up the impeller. Also, they're quite loud. You may think thaat you can muffle the sound, but you'll still hear a whirring sound and it's constant. It WILL drive you nuts. I learned that from experience. Lastly, they are slow. Aerator pumps are at least twice as fast and totally silent.

Great points for the aerator pumps.

Okay, I'll give you some points for the Simers.

• They're totally reliable & self priming. You don't ever have to deal with air lock or the pump not priming, it will always work.
  
• Yes, they're slower. But they're faster than a system that's always dealing with prime or air lock issues.
  
• You can put them anywhere without the worry that they won't prime.
  
• A Simer will keep water from coming in, acting as its own check valve (they don't, however, keep water from flowing back through them if the pressure from the bag is great enough). Aerators don't do that.
  
• They are reversible (& yes, they are strong enough to pump back out through the intake in the bottom of the boat).
  
• They are strong enough to suck a bag dry & turn it into something resembling a raisin.
  

The most reliable system that I've ever built or even had in a boat (& that includes the stock systems that Malibu builds in) had a Simer as the base pump. No, it wasn't screaming fast (I think it took 7-8 minutes to fill a 500 pounder), but it worked really, really well. That was a simple system that filled & emptied through the same hole in the bottom of the boat (I reversed the pump). I've actually got 2 Simers on order to swap for the aerators that are the current fill pumps in my rear bags. I'm sick of air lock & prime issues, & just want the system to work when I flip the switch.

So take that FWIW. If your primary consideration is speed, then you'll have sacrifices & compromises that will need to be made in other areas. That can affect the reliability of the system. Just remember, the closer to the actual raw water pickup that you can place an aerator, the better off you'll be.

For the drill bit, get a Unibit from Home Depot. That's the best for drilling through the gel, goes through it like butter. Once you get to the fiberglass, you can switch over to a regular bit, although we've never had much problem just going all the way through with the Unibit.

I would like to learn more about simer pumps. Do you have a resource online so I could educate myself?

[WakeGirl]

What do you need to know? I don't have a source per se, I've just done a fair amount of searching on the subject over the past few years to put together the systems that I've put in my boats. Here's the way that I see it:

Aerator pumps (Rule, Tsunami)

Pros:

• They're fast
  
• They're quiet
  
• They don't require a lot of power to run (comparatively speaking)
  
• Running dry isn't a huge problem
  
• Ignition protection isn't a problem (can be mounted in bilge area)
  

Cons

• Not self-priming - this will cause you to have to take very special consideration when placing them.
  
• Won't stop water (will let water through, so you may need check valves depending on how you install)
  
• Prone to getting plugged by debris
  
• Not reversible
  

Impeller pumps (Simer, Ballast Puppy)

Pros

• Self priming (can be mounted almost anywhere, above the water line usually works better for stopping water)
  
• Reliable (not prone to getting plugged by debris)
  
• Very strong, can suck a bag dry
  
• Will stop water & act as a valve
  

Cons

• High power consumption may require the need for relays
  
• Slower than aerators (I think the Simer is rated at 600gph, not sure about the Ballast Puppies)
  
• Some are not ignition protected (not rated for use in the bilge - Simer is not, some Ballast Puppies are)
  
• Very strong, can pop a bag if you're not being careful
  
• You can burn up an impeller by running the pump dry
  

[VLXRonnie]

What do you need to know? I don't have a source per se, I've just done a fair amount of searching on the subject over the past few years to put together the systems that I've put in my boats. Here's the way that I see it:

Aerator pumps (Rule, Tsunami)

Pros:

• They're fast
  
• They're quiet
  
• They don't require a lot of power to run (comparatively speaking)
  
• Running dry isn't a huge problem
  
• Ignition protection isn't a problem (can be mounted in bilge area)
  

Cons

• Not self-priming - this will cause you to have to take very special consideration when placing them.
  
• Won't stop water (will let water through, so you may need check valves depending on how you install)
  
• Prone to getting plugged by debris
  
• Not reversible
  

Impeller pumps (Simer, Ballast Puppy)

Pros

• Self priming (can be mounted almost anywhere, above the water line usually works better for stopping water)
  
• Reliable (not prone to getting plugged by debris)
  
• Very strong, can suck a bag dry
  
• Will stop water & act as a valve
  

Cons

• High power consumption may require the need for relays
  
• Slower than aerators (I think the Simer is rated at 600gph, not sure about the Ballast Puppies)
  
• Some are not ignition protected (not rated for use in the bilge - Simer is not, some Ballast Puppies are)
  
• Very strong, can pop a bag if you're not being careful
  
• You can burn up an impeller by running the pump dry
  

That is some good info and that was a majority of what I was looking for . The only other thing I was looking for were places online that sell simer pumps. Hopefully ones that give descriptions and photos. After I read what you posted, brings up another question. What is it meant buy ignition protected? Are you referring that they are not seal and cannot be mounted in the bilge because of the possibility of being submerged in water? Thanks for the assistance .

Ronnie

[WakeGirl]

By ignition protected that means that you can safely mount it in the bilge, but it has to do with gas fumes not submersion. So by following that rule, you would need to find a different spot for it. But the fact that they're self priming & actually do better when they're above the water line kind of works with this rule. You can buy them through BE Atlas for about $75 each (I forgot to mention expense in the cons, sorry). Their number is (800) 305-4393.

I'm actually trying to think of a way that I could use both pumps to fill one bag, that way it would be pretty fast. I'll post this up once I get it figured out, the pumps aren't even here yet.

EDIT: I forgot the model number, that's BW 85. You can buy it with either a scooper or not, you want without (just the pump).

Edited May 8, 2007 by WakeGirl

[jetskipro550]

By ignition protected that means that you can safely mount it in the bilge, but it has to do with gas fumes not submersion. So by following that rule, you would need to find a different spot for it. But the fact that they're self priming & actually do better when they're above the water line kind of works with this rule. You can buy them through BE Atlas for about $75 each (I forgot to mention expense in the cons, sorry). Their number is (800) 305-4393.

I'm actually trying to think of a way that I could use both pumps to fill one bag, that way it would be pretty fast. I'll post this up once I get it figured out, the pumps aren't even here yet.

Group buy?

I love my aerators for filling, but they suck for draining the sacks!

[WakeGirl]

By ignition protected that means that you can safely mount it in the bilge, but it has to do with gas fumes not submersion. So by following that rule, you would need to find a different spot for it. But the fact that they're self priming & actually do better when they're above the water line kind of works with this rule. You can buy them through BE Atlas for about $75 each (I forgot to mention expense in the cons, sorry). Their number is (800) 305-4393.

I'm actually trying to think of a way that I could use both pumps to fill one bag, that way it would be pretty fast. I'll post this up once I get it figured out, the pumps aren't even here yet.

Group buy?

I love my aerators for filling, but they suck for draining the sacks!

Actually I'm going the other way, & leaving the aerators for draining. But then again, I haven't had too many problems with that side.

[jetskipro550]

Just because of where they are located, they only empty the bag part way and then I have to lift the bag up, and its just a little annoying. I guess I shouldn't really complain because its much easier then it used to be.

[VLXRonnie]

thanks Wakegirl I appreciate the information and look forward to your next post...

[WakeGirl]

Waiting on pumps..... <tapping foot>

[WakeGirl]

Brown came today, I love that color (well, Purple is good too ). Anyway, here's a pic of what the pumps look like. I'll give a full write up once I'm done & have it tested.

[jetskipro550]

I can't wait to hear how they work!

[VLXRonnie]

I can't wait to hear how they work!

[jetskipro550]

Any news? I almost ripped my ballast out and threw it in the lake this weekend! The fill pumps wouldn't hold prime, the drain pumps would lose prime once the sacks were 3/4 empty, and the sacks themselves would be 2/3 empty after just one run! I am also getting crap from my dad cause I spent all this time and money on something that doesn't even work right. For anyone interested, I might have 4-800GPH pumps up for sale very shortly!

[WakeGirl]

We're still working on it, hopefully I'll get to test the latest rendition this weekend. I've got problems with the existing plumbing, so we need to re-do a bunch of it before I can give any kind of good report.

[jetskipro550]

With the new pumps will you be able to fill and drain (if you wanted too) with the same pump?

[WakeGirl]

With the new pumps will you be able to fill and drain (if you wanted too) with the same pump?

I could (you just have to reverse polarity at the switch on the empty side & I've got a schematic for that around here somewhere), but have chosen not to.

[VLXRonnie]

reading the specs. on your new pumps from the page you provided... sounds and looks promising. Cant wait to hear about your results.

[WakeGirl]

Okay guys, got some good numbers for you. With my setup, I can fill a Pro X 750 lb bag in 7-8 minutes with the Simer. That's almost as fast as the center tank (that thing seems like it takes forever to fill). And to be completely honest, we started it well after we had the stock system filling so a more honest comparison may have it finishing right with the other tanks. I've only got one side hooked up right now, & it's on its own intake that goes from a 3/4" plug (same plugs that you use the t-handles in) straight into a barbed fitting that adapts to 1" ID, with 1" tubing straight up to the pump (once again it has to adapt from 1" ID to 3/4" for the pump). My pumps are mounted above the water line & I never had a problem with either auto-filling or priming. It worked the way that I've always wished that the system would work. I need to finish things up, & once I do that I'll do a complete write-up.