C&D EV Tow Test

[RyanB]

Not ready for prime time. At least not for me. 
 

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a40896618/ev-pickups-towing-test-hummer-rivian-lightning/?utm_source=facebook&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR2YBlCe9CZQyOqko9H-j8G4unzVrf82pKJ-tJ0slLTnxTcBTFCg2uGebaE

[UWSkier]

I did 450 miles today with the travel trailer attached from Colorado Springs to Albuquerque. If I tried that with an EV, I'd still be driving. Took us 7h 40m with petrol stops and potty breaks. 

No thanks! 

[Tsumi]

Gotta start somewhere. You don't get perfect tech overnight, it takes several iterations. And you have to make a product out of those iterations because you need to fund the next iteration.

In our case it would be nearly perfect. Our lakehouse is 120 miles from our main house and the boat only needs to go half a mile to the launch ramp. We don't tow anything else. They're just too expensive for us right now.

[Murphys]

8 hours ago, Tsumi said:

Gotta start somewhere. You don't get perfect tech overnight, it takes several iterations. And you have to make a product out of those iterations because you need to fund the next iteration.

In our case it would be nearly perfect. Our lakehouse is 120 miles from our main house and the boat only needs to go half a mile to the launch ramp. We don't tow anything else. They're just too expensive for us right now.

So, if EV truck owners are essentially Beta testing products, shouldn't the prices be much more reasonable?

[theloungelife]

I will say after owning my Rivian R1T for about 3 months, it is kind of a beta testing experience.  The core of the car has been issue free.  I've had issues with the tonneau cover and the front trunk latch.  That said, Rivian customer support picks up your call within a minute and will actively try to get you taken care of.  They do have parts shortages etc though, which can delay some fixes.  I think price wise everything comes down to supply and demand.  The secondary market for these vehicles is way more expensive than Rivian or Ford are charging.

In terms of towing, it's all about what YOUR use case is.  Distance towing I would say is out of the question right now.  In addition to range, most EV charger stations are not setup for vehicles with a trailer.  I would avoid if this is your use case.  For me, the furthest I tow my boat is 50 miles.  I can easily handle that with my R1T on a full charge from my house the night before.  Without the trailer, the R1T is great on trips.  Will get even easier when Tesla opens up their charger network this fall.

[obski]

My brother was very interested in the F-150 Lightning as a daily driver and to tow a large TT.  He was already moving towards the non-EV F-150 anyway, but I sent him the article.  If you are just towing short distances then maybe, but it looks like any kind of road trip is a no go at this point with an EV tow truck.  Something to keep watching.

[teamerickson]

I recently took delivery of a lightning. It's amazing! I've had 2 sierras in the past. The lightning is a tow beast! Feels more secure and stable then the 3/4 tons I've driven. My towing to the ramp is about 16 miles round trip. I've had an electric vehicle for about 3.5 years now, so I'm used to taking one on longer trips and charging. Not really a big deal to me. It's not for everyone but how many times are you really towing over 200 miles? I always tell people that electric is great, but you can't be as spontaneous as a gas vehicle. There may be some planning involved. But the benefits greatly outweigh the drawbacks.

[shawndoggy]

37 minutes ago, teamerickson said:

I recently took delivery of a lightning. It's amazing! I've had 2 sierras in the past. The lightning is a tow beast! Feels more secure and stable then the 3/4 tons I've driven. My towing to the ramp is about 16 miles round trip. I've had an electric vehicle for about 3.5 years now, so I'm used to taking one on longer trips and charging. Not really a big deal to me. It's not for everyone but how many times are you really towing over 200 miles? I always tell people that electric is great, but you can't be as spontaneous as a gas vehicle. There may be some planning involved. But the benefits greatly outweigh the drawbacks.

I'm definitely in when I can tow to bullards (where? shhhh!) and back from reno in a day on a single charge (200m RT / approx 9k' cumulative elevation gain).  That's like the tow-range stress test for me, and we previously had a gasser that couldn't make it on a 26 gallon tank either (with very terrible fueling options en route).

[theloungelife]

5 hours ago, teamerickson said:

I recently took delivery of a lightning. It's amazing! I've had 2 sierras in the past. The lightning is a tow beast! Feels more secure and stable then the 3/4 tons I've driven. My towing to the ramp is about 16 miles round trip. I've had an electric vehicle for about 3.5 years now, so I'm used to taking one on longer trips and charging. Not really a big deal to me. It's not for everyone but how many times are you really towing over 200 miles? I always tell people that electric is great, but you can't be as spontaneous as a gas vehicle. There may be some planning involved. But the benefits greatly outweigh the drawbacks.

Congrats!  Still haven't seen one in the wild yet, but excited for when I do.

[Tsumi]

11 hours ago, Murphys said:

So, if EV truck owners are essentially Beta testing products, shouldn't the prices be much more reasonable?

By your logic, every current truck is a beta product because there will be a better iteration the next generation unless it happens to be the very final generation.

Costs tend to be high when you're at the bleeding edge of technology. Adaptive cruise control used to only be found on premium luxury cars, now you can find them on something as mundane as a Camry. That will be the case here.

[MLBurns]

A service company we use put their salesman in a F150 Powerboost, he usually comes out to see us in a loaner because the F150 is constantly going in for some kind of repair. We find it humorous and tell him the truck is scared to get near an oilwell.

[Bluefishcay]

Range is the main problem with ev’s.  For simple range calculations you can figure the mpg of a gas equivalent, then divide by 10 to get the miles/kwh for a equivalent EV.   Then simply multiply battery capacity by the m/kwh for max range.  For things like hills or cold, reduce by 30-50%.  It will get you within 10% of range.   An example, F150 is about 20 mpg, so 2 m/kwh, with the 150 kwh pack range is about 300 miles.  Towing, they get say 10 ish, so 1 m/kwh or a range of about 150 miles.  Now this is max range and ev’s don’t like full charge to discharge cycles, so figure 75% of that to stay in the 15-85% soc.  That brings the lightning down to around 112 miles usable towing.   Do it when it’s cold out and you could be looking for a charger in as little as 60 miles.  The physics of current batteries means they don’t really hold much energy compared to gas.  
 

I had 2 ev’s and went back to gas due to range issues.  I moved to an area with no ev infrastructure and long driving distances.   If a reasonable priced large battery ev existed I would have bought it, but they don’t exist yet. The 150kwh lightning might be usable for short tows, but will fall short for longer tows.  

[Nitrousbird]

I'm happy to purchase an EV truck when it meets two criteria:

• Cost of ownership.  The the purchase price, but the cost for me buying it (new or used), maintaining, fueling, and selling.  That cost needs to be at the same level as equivalent internal combustion vehicle
• Long trips.  I only typically tow one long trip a year, but that's 370 miles one-way.  Zero charging infrastructure the last at least 50+ miles of that trip, and the last half of that trip is through the hills of Kentucky and Tennessee.  I can't sit at a charger for 2 hours getting back up to 100% (remember, that last 20% takes forever), and I would need that to safely get to my destination, stay, and get back to the charger again. 
  
  Then there is the 3-4 other long trips I do a year - not towing, but the family and a bed full of luggage.  Typically 5-7 hours drives straight through with a gas stop and pee stop at most...my travel time is important to me, and spending an hour+ at a charger to make it to my destination isn't in the cards.

Fix those two issues and I'll happily own one.  Until then, why bother?  I'm even building my house with electric charging in mind for at least one vehicle, but really that's for the wife who needs a car that never leaves the state (and rarely more than 20 miles from home), so that would be perfect for her.  Long trips and towing - electrics aren't it and there is no sign within my next 1-2 vehicles of being it.

[Murphys]

On 8/25/2022 at 7:42 PM, Tsumi said:

By your logic, every current truck is a beta product because there will be a better iteration the next generation unless it happens to be the very final generation.

Costs tend to be high when you're at the bleeding edge of technology. Adaptive cruise control used to only be found on premium luxury cars, now you can find them on something as mundane as a Camry. That will be the case here.

I must respectfully disagree. I purchase and utilize trucks for driving, towing and hauling. I would not consider trucks that meet those needs while delivering expected performance established years ago to be beta products no matter how many bells and whistles may come later. 

My reference to the EV trucks being beta products is rooted in the facts that there is much improvement to be made regarding battery range (especially while towing) and charging infrastructure.

My reasoning for believing the trucks should be more affordable is based on my perception that purchasing one would be a step backwards compared to what I  now own, mainly due to range limits and charging times. Not to mention the billions of dollars in taxpayer funded subsidies going toward the development of EVs, batteries and charging systems.

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Murphys
Spelling

[oldjeep]

On 8/25/2022 at 9:06 AM, Murphys said:

So, if EV truck owners are essentially Beta testing products, shouldn't the prices be much more reasonable?

No, they usually test things on monkeys first;)

[Tsumi]

13 hours ago, Murphys said:

I must respectfully disagree. I purchase and utilize trucks for driving, towing and hauling. I would not consider trucks that meet those needs while delivering expected performance established years ago to be beta products no matter how many bells and whistles may come later. 

My reference to the EV trucks being beta products is rooted in the facts that there is much improvement to be made regarding battery range (especially while towing) and charging infrastructure.

My reasoning for believing the trucks should be more affordable is based on my perception that purchasing one would be a step backwards compared to what I  now own, mainly due to range limits and charging times. Not to mention the billions of dollars in taxpayer funded subsidies going toward the development of EVs, batteries and charging systems.

 

The first automobile was slower than a horse, less capable than a horse, and cost more than a horse. No one would have called them beta products then. The gasoline truck has less power and range than an equivalent diesel truck while taking just as much time to fill up but wouldn't be considered a beta product.

Additionally, while EVs tend to have higher upfront costs, maintenance costs tend to be lower. Regenerative braking greatly reduces brake usage. There's no oil changes and any fluid changes are done every 40-100k miles. On the other hand, EVs do tend to wear through tires faster, though this is more of an issue on passenger cars where there aren't many tires designed to carry the weight of an EV.

You are also forgetting the environmental impact that gasoline has that is not reflected in the price you pay at the pump, at least not currently. That cost, if not paid now, will have to be paid for down the road by my generation, my children's generation, and so on. What are the costs of climate change in the past few years alone? The climate change induced wildfires, droughts, and floods have cost billions in additional damage, if not more. The "once in a lifetime" fires in California have happened 3 times in the last 4 years and is likely to happen frequently in the future.

[ahopkins22LSV]

This thread is to talk about the towing test, not anything political. Do not let it go there.

[Surf4FamFun]

32 minutes ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

This thread is to talk about the towing test, not anything political. Do not let it go there.

I am sure there is a supportive and clever Little Rascals quote I should be able to come up with but just can't quite find it.  It is early where I am.  I do really enjoy this bastion of normalcy.

[BlindSquirrel]

 

 

[oldjeep]

3 minutes ago, BlindSquirrel said:

 

 

But he saved 3.5 gallons of gas, so that is something;)

[Sparky450]

16 hours ago, oldjeep said:

But he saved 3.5 gallons of gas, so that is something;)

And then he has to pay fir a full charge😂😂

[Slayer]

On 8/29/2022 at 6:20 AM, ahopkinsVTX said:

This thread is to talk about the towing test, not anything political. Do not let it go there.

You realize that's nearly impossible considering the move to EV is nearly 100% political.  C'mon, man......

Not trying to rustle any feathers, but it's true.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Slayer

[ahopkins22LSV]

10 minutes ago, Slayer said:

You realize that's nearly impossible considering the move to EV is nearly 100% political.  C'mon, man......

Not trying to rustle any feathers, but it's true.

Political discussion it is not allowed per the terms of use for this site. The performance of EV tow tests and EV in general can easily be discussed without getting into the political side of it. If not, the thread will get shut down.

[IXFE]

1 hour ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

Political discussion it is not allowed per the terms of use for this site. The performance of EV tow tests and EV in general can easily be discussed without getting into the political side of it. If not, the thread will get shut down.

I think you should shut the thread down for entirely different reason…

EV’s are lame 

[Nitrousbird]

19 minutes ago, IXFE said:

I think you should shut the thread down for entirely different reason…

EV’s are lame 

1914HP, 8.58 @ 167.5 MPH in the 1/4 mile bone stock.  So lame.  

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Nitrousbird