Used Boat Prices Falling

[dalt1]

17 hours ago, mxmark4 said:

TN will get you on purchase but not on sale for taxes. I always ask for a bill of sale with a really low number on it if doing a private party sale just because I dont think its right to collect sales tax on an item that has already been sold and taxed.  Government double and triple dipping on sales tax everytime something is sold is robbery to me. 

Easy to do on older vehicles/boats that could be in bad condition and Cheap. Even tough they in fact were in great shape and you paid premium $$$. If you try it on newer vehicles/boats they may question your $ amount and make you prove it.

[The Hulk]

52 minutes ago, granddaddy55 said:

well then unless buying new my argument in this thread holds true!!!!! for you and me if buying used, gotta luv a real boating state like LA, you can bet our legislators have ALL  purchased used boats,  double taxation is a crime to me!!!

That's why most used cars in the 5-20k range often involves cash, ie reduce the listed sales price on title transfer so their tax is lower at BMV. A major reason uncle Sam wants to ban cash and why many banks tag you or make u fill out a form if you withdraw 5k+ cash from your account (some banks even lower) and some are still the old 10k but I've been told more than a few grand your tagged even if you aren't told.. 

Cash app/Venmo war has started as well.  Uncle Sam loves to tax vehicles numerous times, big revenue! 

 

[mxmark4]

4 hours ago, The Hulk said:

That's why most used cars in the 5-20k range often involves cash, ie reduce the listed sales price on title transfer so their tax is lower at BMV. A major reason uncle Sam wants to ban cash and why many banks tag you or make u fill out a form if you withdraw 5k+ cash from your account (some banks even lower) and some are still the old 10k but I've been told more than a few grand your tagged even if you aren't told.. 

Cash app/Venmo war has started as well.  Uncle Sam loves to tax vehicles numerous times, big revenue! 

 

Best reason to not keep cash in the bank. 

[OtherBoatisaCessna]

On 1/6/2023 at 9:47 PM, NWBU said:

I think you’ll find there’s a number of other crazy passions that do better than many realize, even pre-Covid. Exotic car guys might have most of us boaters beat too. Much of the success in any hobby like that comes down to knowing your passion market inside and out. Oh and constrained production doesn’t hurt either.

My 60 year old plane has tripled in value over the last five years, for instance.  Probably won’t last, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it sustains a doubling.  And talk about constrained production in aviation - whoa.  There’s a reason 60 year old examples are still flying.  

[NWBU]

1 hour ago, OtherBoatisaCessna said:

My 60 year old plane has tripled in value over the last five years, for instance.  Probably won’t last, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it sustains a doubling.  And talk about constrained production in aviation - whoa.  There’s a reason 60 year old examples are still flying.  

What a fun investment too! There used to be an airplane thread in the off topic section but that didn’t survive a database migration awhile back.

I watch the aircraft market closely, even more than boats these days. Used prices are inching down, but they aren’t making any more cheaper planes, ever. On the new side, an order this week gets you a delivery date in early 2025.

At least that’s if you want a Cirrus, which is the really the only game left (production volume wise). That makes quite a few recent model years worth more than the new pricing.

[Ronnie]

From Trade Only, Recreational Boating Maintains Momentum

[oldjeep]

6 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

From Trade Only, Recreational Boating Maintains Momentum

The National Marine Manufacturers Association and the boating industry are expecting an estimated 2 million attendees at boat shows throughout the country from January to March.

But there is a difference between my $20? 2 for one boat show ticket and folks who have any intention of buying a boat   But I'll be there next week

Edited January 11, 2023 by oldjeep

[dalt1]

2 hours ago, oldjeep said:

The National Marine Manufacturers Association and the boating industry are expecting an estimated 2 million attendees at boat shows throughout the country from January to March.

But there is a difference between my $20? 2 for one boat show ticket and folks who have any intention of buying a boat   But I'll be there next week

I went last week 2 for one ticket at $14. They couldn't sell me a boat though because I am already on the build slot list with mine ordered!!!!!!

[oldjeep]

1 hour ago, dalt1 said:

I went last week 2 for one ticket at $14. They couldn't sell me a boat though because I am already on the build slot list with mine ordered!!!!!!

I look forward to picking up my annual 20% off prop repair coupon and having a couple $10 crappy beers.  My wife usually finds something interesting to buy in the boat related stuff area.  As far as boats go, I think that my 2012 is the pinnacle of boat design and will be the last boat I own  (mostly because it is paid for, we have places we would like to see, and I would like to retire at some point)

Edited January 12, 2023 by oldjeep

[Wakeskate77]

Dang, started this thread and bounced! Sold my 2017  and totally forgot about it. 
 

Anyway, thinking about buying a 2019 LSV that I like. About the same price with 400 less hours. Think it’s too soon still? 

[pauley71]

12 hours ago, Wakeskate77 said:

Dang, started this thread and bounced! Sold my 2017  and totally forgot about it. 
 

Anyway, thinking about buying a 2019 LSV that I like. About the same price with 400 less hours. Think it’s too soon still? 

Who knows!  I would think we will see a stabilization for the spring buying season.  Maybe the difference this year is there isn't a 'bump'.  I consistently got 10% more waiting until spring.  I don't think we will see a 10% bump ... but IDK. 

[OtherBoatisaCessna]

When would you say the spring buying season starts?  I continue to monitor pricing and it seems like there’s some softness but I still haven’t sensed a major correction.  Most of the slow moving boats seem to have some undesirables, like an M5 engine in a boat that really demands an M6 or more, so I take those with a grain of salt.

Edited January 12, 2023 by OtherBoatisaCessna

[oldjeep]

10 minutes ago, OtherBoatisaCessna said:

When would you say the spring buying season starts?  I continue to monitor pricing and it seems like there’s some softness but I still haven’t sensed a major correction.  Most of the slow moving boats seem to have some undesirables, like an M5 engine in a boat that really demands an M6 or more, so I take those with a grain of salt.

Kind depends on where you live.  Here, it is pretty hard to buy a used boat from a private party until around April - depending on where they are in storage.  There are exceptions - I bought mine in Jan many years ago, but the PO had a palatial garage  so the boat was actually accessible and was willing to let me store it there until early spring.  But most storage locations don't allow you in during the winter and the boats are parked tight.

Edited January 12, 2023 by oldjeep

[Hemmy]

8 minutes ago, pauley71 said:

Who knows!  I would think we will see a stabilization for the spring buying season.  Maybe the difference this year is there isn't a 'bump'.  I consistently got 10% more waiting until spring.  I don't think we will see a 10% bump ... but IDK. 

Resin prices have stabilized and even dropped.  Oil prices have also dropped.  The resin and fiberglass costs were a huge factor.  Assuming oil doesn't go crazy again, the resin prices should remain stabilized, maybe even drop a little more.  We should also be beyond the supply issues for resin and fiberglass, although I can't speak for the chip shortages.  Material costs are better so in theory we should at some point see a slight decrease, but I doubt that will happen until demand drops.

[pauley71]

18 minutes ago, Hemmy said:

Resin prices have stabilized and even dropped.  Oil prices have also dropped.  The resin and fiberglass costs were a huge factor.  Assuming oil doesn't go crazy again, the resin prices should remain stabilized, maybe even drop a little more.  We should also be beyond the supply issues for resin and fiberglass, although I can't speak for the chip shortages.  Material costs are better so in theory we should at some point see a slight decrease, but I doubt that will happen until demand drops.

But the thread is about USED boats and those supply side savings will take time to make their way through production and likely won't impact 2023 pricing.  MAYBE we will see 2024 pricing level off (ie same as 2023).

I'll take zero increase as a discount the way things are going.

Edited January 12, 2023 by pauley71

[COOP]

1 hour ago, Hemmy said:

 in theory we should at some point see a slight decrease

There will never be a decrease in new boats. 

In fact, I think theres another increase coming.

[bcoppess23]

4 hours ago, COOP said:

There will never be a decrease in new boats. 

In fact, I think theres another increase coming.

So much for the ad they had earlier in the MY about no price increases.. LOL

[OtherBoatisaCessna]

So what’s the latest on all of this?  We bought at what we thought - and still think - was a really good deal in October, and I’ve only seen a few listings in December and January that seemed to approach it in terms of being a “deal”. I feel like the days are getting longer now and people might start waking up to the fact that boating season is just around the corner, causing the used market to firm up a touch.  Tons of layoffs now in tech and other industries, but still not seeing much actual “pain” in the economy.  Thoughts?  @The Hulk what’s the latest in doom and gloom?

[Hemmy]

36 minutes ago, OtherBoatisaCessna said:

  @The Hulk what’s the latest in doom and gloom?

Edited February 17, 2023 by Hemmy

[oldjeep]

I have to say that motorcycle dealers are still awfully proud of the 2023's.  I was quoted $6200 out the door on a $4900 MSRP - which is about $700 over MSRP/Freight/T&L should cost.

[OtherBoatisaCessna]

30 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

I have to say that motorcycle dealers are still awfully proud of the 2023's.  I was quoted $6200 out the door on a $4900 MSRP - which is about $700 over MSRP/Freight/T&L should cost.

Yeah, this is kind of what I'm seeing, too.  My wife is trying to buy a Land Cruiser and you literally can't find one to buy.  The other possibility would be a new diesel suburban/Yukon XL, same story.  Aircraft prices haven't really budged - maybe a touch - and same for wakeboats as far as I can tell.  Inflation is still running high, so while the economy might slow down, prices might theoretically keep going up anyway (stagflation, right?).  Ironically, the only thing I see actual evidence of declines is in housing prices in our market, but it was soooo overblown it was absolutely ridiculous, and the conventional wisdom is that people have to give up their boats and planes before they let their houses go, not the other way around.  

[The Hulk]

Economy is slowing greatly, dispite gov lagging indicators and data. Layoffs in tech are one thing but fat trimming way up amongst all sectors and mfg is way down.

 

Boating industry is slowing, dont think we'll see it hit hard till late in the year and worse in 2024

We typically lag RV sector by 6-9+ months.. RV are all revised to BELOW pre pandemic numbers now and keep getting revised downward.. 

Freight rentals such as penski trucking are leading indicators accurate predictors And  all going down quickly.. just look at container imports.. fell off a cliff which signals demand died many months ago. As mentioned before it takes a solid year for $ policy to work it's way through system.. 

China and world opening up and Russia cutting oil, means oil will likely continue it's slow rise, means fed will have extremely difficulty getting back to 2% when considering energy and food. IMO realistically we'll be at a sustainable 4-5% for a few years... Another 26 million barrels and depletion to artificially lower prices and keep them low what happens when we actually have to refill the strategic reserves and there's already a shortage and then the government buys up ex quantity to replenish? price spikes.. Only caveat is if the economy totally craters and demand drops enough to keep this in check somewhat but likely to continue rise for essentials while trinkets soon start to go down 

Food still has another 15-20% rise over the next year.. those crops planted with +500% HIGHER fertilizer cost will start to hit the market later in the year, add rising energy and oil cost inflation of REAL necessities will continue uptick. But hey at least we change the calculations to not include anything that people actually buy on a monthly basis! 

Inflation at gov numbers of 6% currently means 12+% real inflation still. At the end of this we at a minimum devalued the dollar by 40% via M2.. no way around it and keep in mind there are trillions in commitment that has not been spent.. further inflation. Simply put if you don't make +40% more than you did 3yrs ago your poorer now so accept it.. 

We're in Stagflation for a while get use to it. Demand will continue to fall and prices will still be rising..

As far as used market there are now some boats hitting the market people trying to drop payments you know those that bought on 20-year loans that are having hard time making ends meet now with inflation eating away their budget... 

 

Boat lift and dock sales slowing quickly, outlook not horrible as the season is over in 4-5 mo from now. Consences is it's down but hard to determine if back to pre pandemic or below pre pandemic and changing to the lower by the day, at this point some dealers are similar to pre pandemic and others have dipped below 

Edited February 18, 2023 by The Hulk

[granddaddy55]

On 1/12/2023 at 7:49 AM, OtherBoatisaCessna said:

When would you say the spring buying season starts?  I continue to monitor pricing and it seems like there’s some softness but I still haven’t sensed a major correction.  Most of the slow moving boats seem to have some undesirables, like an M5 engine in a boat that really demands an M6 or more, so I take those with a grain of salt.

quite a bit of those m5’s, cant believe folks and dealers ordered motors with a displacement smaller than the old 5.7’s that weren't vtx or 21 vlx

[DFW]

We were at the local dealership open house a few weeks ago to take a closer look at the 2023 26.5. They were all about selling boats on the spot. Interesting part was what they offered on trade for my 2022 25LSV, essentially what I paid for it in the fall of 2021. The price on the new 26.5 was right in line with my expectations as well, so, no cratering of the market just yet…

That said, the follow up from the dealer post visit has been regular and VARY thorough. To me this indicates not only a slowdown in traffic, but I suspect the pool of folks who can actually buy (cash or finance) a $200k+ wake boat is much smaller than it has been in recent times.

I agree with @Hulk that economic pain will continue to build this year and into 2024, just a question how much.

[The Hulk]

On 2/25/2023 at 10:09 AM, DFW said:

We were at the local dealership open house a few weeks ago to take a closer look at the 2023 26.5. They were all about selling boats on the spot. Interesting part was what they offered on trade for my 2022 25LSV, essentially what I paid for it in the fall of 2021. The price on the new 26.5 was right in line with my expectations as well, so, no cratering of the market just yet…

That said, the follow up from the dealer post visit has been regular and VARY thorough. To me this indicates not only a slowdown in traffic, but I suspect the pool of folks who can actually buy (cash or finance) a $200k+ wake boat is much smaller than it has been in recent times.

I agree with @Hulk that economic pain will continue to build this year and into 2024, just a question how much.

200k+? .. more like just under 300k! 😂

FYI Boat lift sales and inquiries dropping rapidly. 

Also not as many SOLD signs on boats this year at shows but then again past two yrs crazy sales and low inventory.

I suspect we'll start to see 20-30% layoffs at boat builders between late spring and fall heading into 2024. 

What's use to be high end 2yrs ago is now mid range, what was mid range is now low end with any boat type and brand. 

Read a report saying that avg new boater keeps Craft for 5yrs before dumping , and only x % continue being a boat owner . there was a massive influx during pandemic of new first time buyers that could lead to a swarm of people dumping a lifestyle investment they don't use nearly as much as they originally did and or thought. Used market will be interesting for next few years for sure but I suspect to see that later this year and more so into 2024. 

The avg person needs +$3/hr raise just to cover food price increases in past 12 months only.. 

As mentioned if you don't make +40% more than a few years ago.. well you have less disposable income, not many folks in the economy likely hit that number..