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Boat choice not discussed much, M 220 vs 25 LSV


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Bought a 2020 22 LSV almost on impulse.  Had a great time with it but it was not optioned (after a season of use and learning about what we wanted) the way we wanted and was a little small.  Ordered a 23 MXZ and have really enjoyed it.  Better wave ect, now we have next year.  For a variety of reasons I am researching one last boat upgrade.  We really like the size of the bow on the MXZ but really don't like its tendency to dip when loaded and there are other surf boats around.  We would usually go out with 12 or 13 people so don't think we need the 25 LSV from a crew size standpoint.  We look to be going to a much larger lake next year so the press around the M 220 handling rough water much better than the MXZ and having the most freeboard other than the M240 sounds very appealing.  

So a few questions.  Considering rougher water next year, crew size Ok with M220, primarily surf, like open bow, price (from what I have seen on this board) not enough different to swing the choice what would be the down side of the M220 vs the 25 LSV?

First will the wave be noticeably bigger with more push going from a 23 MXZ to either of these boats?  I assume so but would like to hear from someone(s) with first hand experience.

Is the wave that much better on the 25 LSV vs the M 220 or they close to the same?  We have riders from 60 to 260 pounds.

Will the 25 LSV handle wavs on the bow and rough water just as well or is the M 220 really better?

Never been completely satisfied with the amps on the LSV, with the Rev 10 upgrades it sounds better that the Rev 8 we had on the 22 LSV but still clips at volume.  Do the stereo upgrades address that with the M package?

What other factor would you put into the equation RE differences in the boats.

Other than the cool factor and just never having to worry about torque at 800 ft over sea level is there really a justification for having the LT4 engine?

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Capacity and room is the obvious main difference.  My wife won't entertain the M220 over the 25LSV for that reason or I'd probably be having the same debate in greater detail.  

I have been on the M220 and own a 25LSV, although my M experience is limited.   But based on that, here are my thoughts - the M's wave had a lot of push, but I don't think it has the ability to develop the length of pocket the 25 has.    With the 2022 redesign of the 25LSV, I suspect the "push" factor will be on par with the M at the back of the wave, which is where I had noticed the difference.    The 25 handles chop relatively well and the 2022 version I expect to be even better.  I didn't ride the M in chop, but have a friend that runs one at Lake of the Ozarks specifically due to how (relatively) well the M handles the rough water (of course he picked it over the 24MXZ and wasn't comparing to a 25LSV, and the MXZ's I don't think handle chop as well as some other models).    I suspect the M may be a tiny bit better in the chop, but that really is speculative on my part.   

Also, good luck with "one last boat upgrade".  It sounds like you already caught the bug! 

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5 hours ago, hethj7 said:

Capacity and room is the obvious main difference.  My wife won't entertain the M220 over the 25LSV for that reason or I'd probably be having the same debate in greater detail.  

I have been on the M220 and own a 25LSV, although my M experience is limited.   But based on that, here are my thoughts - the M's wave had a lot of push, but I don't think it has the ability to develop the length of pocket the 25 has.    With the 2022 redesign of the 25LSV, I suspect the "push" factor will be on par with the M at the back of the wave, which is where I had noticed the difference.    The 25 handles chop relatively well and the 2022 version I expect to be even better.  I didn't ride the M in chop, but have a friend that runs one at Lake of the Ozarks specifically due to how (relatively) well the M handles the rough water (of course he picked it over the 24MXZ and wasn't comparing to a 25LSV, and the MXZ's I don't think handle chop as well as some other models).    I suspect the M may be a tiny bit better in the chop, but that really is speculative on my part.   

Also, good luck with "one last boat upgrade".  It sounds like you already caught the bug! 

I'm going through this same debate too. Have you and your M220 friend noticed much difference in spray between the M220 and 25 LSV when it's windy? The G23 used to have that issue until they tweaked the hull, and I get the sense the M240 has some spray issues too.

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My buddy reports no known issues and normally a dry ride.  He said if it is really windy they may get light spray - I am guessing there is enough generated beside the hull that a good wind may carrry it in, but he said it was never anything he worried about or noticed.  

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4 hours ago, hethj7 said:

My buddy reports no known issues and normally a dry ride.  He said if it is really windy they may get light spray - I am guessing there is enough generated beside the hull that a good wind may carrry it in, but he said it was never anything he worried about or noticed.  

Thanks, that’s exactly what I was hoping to hear.

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I have a 24 MXZ (never had an issue with dipping the bow btw) and have been in a bunch of 23 & 25 LSV's and recently a new M220.  IMO the M220 feels cramped compared to those other boats.  Also yes it is a taller boat but is doesn't feel that much deeper when you are in it. Honestly, I do not get the hype on the M220, while the fit and finish were a step up, I was underwhelmed with the size and the surf wave for the money.

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On 9/20/2021 at 3:25 AM, Chappy said:

I have a 24 MXZ (never had an issue with dipping the bow btw) and have been in a bunch of 23 & 25 LSV's and recently a new M220.  IMO the M220 feels cramped compared to those other boats.  Also yes it is a taller boat but is doesn't feel that much deeper when you are in it. Honestly, I do not get the hype on the M220, while the fit and finish were a step up, I was underwhelmed with the size and the surf wave for the money.

So wake was no better that your 24 MXZ or not enough better for the money?  I would be coming from a 23 MXZ so my starting point is in shorter and lighter boat.  

You say you don't have trouble dipping the bow, what do you do RE bow ballast as you add crew?  I don't have problems with my own wake but if there are other boats out as I turn around (especially other surf boats are out) I find I have to throttle past the dropped surfer or navigate not to them but to avoid the wake and then go back.  Wondering if those who don't dip are in smoother water or lighten the boat with a larger crew or some other factor in how you drive that I am missing.

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9 minutes ago, Surf4FamFun said:

So wake was no better that your 24 MXZ or not enough better for the money?  I would be coming from a 23 MXZ so my starting point is in shorter and lighter boat.  

You say you don't have trouble dipping the bow, what do you do RE bow ballast as you add crew?  I don't have problems with my own wake but if there are other boats out as I turn around (especially other surf boats are out) I find I have to throttle past the dropped surfer or navigate not to them but to avoid the wake and then go back.  Wondering if those who don't dip are in smoother water or lighten the boat with a larger crew or some other factor in how you drive that I am missing.

IMO the wave on the 21' M220 was no better than my 19' 24MXZ or the 21' 25LSV I also ride on frequently. Not only was it no better but I would argue it was worse. I had high expectations and was completely underwhelmed.

Regarding, taking waves over the bow. It does happen to me occasionally but no more than the traditional bow boats I have owned or drive on a regular basis.  I know this rhetoric keeps coming up but I refuse to believe this issue is worse in a pickle v traditional bow. I do not add extra weight besides the stock ballast in the bow though but never did that in my other boats either.

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29 minutes ago, Chappy said:

IMO the wave on the 21' M220 was no better than my 19' 24MXZ or the 21' 25LSV I also ride on frequently. Not only was it no better but I would argue it was worse. I had high expectations and was completely underwhelmed.

Regarding, taking waves over the bow. It does happen to me occasionally but no more than the traditional bow boats I have owned or drive on a regular basis.  I know this rhetoric keeps coming up but I refuse to believe this issue is worse in a pickle v traditional bow. I do not add extra weight besides the stock ballast in the bow though but never did that in my other boats either.

sorry to keep coming back to you but you seen to have the first hand that can help.  Is there any appreciable difference surfing behind the 24 MXZ and the 25 LSV?  Presuming there is not much difference in cost between these three (don't have list pricing on the three but think they are within 20k MSRP) sounds like you would come down firmly for one of the other boats and not the M220.  Am I reading too much.  If that is correct other than bow shape what would be the biggest differences?

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The wave on my buddy's 25 LSV and my 24MXZ are basically identical. I personally would not go with the M220 over these boats bc of cost and size. For me the slightly better fit and finish and little to no increase in wave performance do not justify the price difference. If it was me in your position 25 LSV all the way with no hesitation.

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1 hour ago, Chappy said:

The wave on my buddy's 25 LSV and my 24MXZ are basically identical. I personally would not go with the M220 over these boats bc of cost and size. For me the slightly better fit and finish and little to no increase in wave performance do not justify the price difference. If it was me in your position 25 LSV all the way with no hesitation.

Thanks for the feedback.

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I have a 22MXZ, and I have spent time behind a 24MXZ, a M240, and a M220.  I have not been behind a 25 LSV, as I have no interest in the cramped (to me) front end of the traditional bow boats (although the rear loungers in the 2022 are sure nice)

My first ride behind the M240 was unimpressive.  Not as good as my tweaked wave on the 24MXZ or even to 22MXZ.  After 30 min of tweaking, the difference was night and day.  I've never had anything close to the length and push from the MXZ series.  I absolutely love the wave behind this boat.

I got the chance to ride behind a M220 when the Just Ride Tour came to my region.  I didn't have the opportunity to tweak the wave, but I noticed that the team riders had it set up very similar to what I did to the M240, and the wave was stunning.  Once again, it was leagues ahead of what I have been able to get out of the MXZ series.  It was not quite the M240 wave, but it was probably 90-95% of it.  Great for both surf style and skim.

To me, the MXZ series surf wave simply doesn't hold a candle to the M series surf wave.  The latter is so much better, that I ordered the M220 for my next boat.  Why so different from Chappy's experience? I'm not sure that I can answer that.  I think that is why it is so important to wet test these boats.  Maybe we are looking for different things out of a wave. 

IMHO you are going to love the wave over your 23 MXZ wave.  

I selected the LT4 due to elevation, and the fact that the biggest problem I have with my 22MXZ is the noise from surfing near 4,000 RPM.  With the LT4 and the speed prop, the RPM will come way down.  It appears that the M6 has sufficient power for the M220 when elevation is not a concern.  Resale may be an issue.

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Here are the differences in the stereo packages on the M220

 

-M220 Core

Wakesetter style amps. 

SYN DX 6 runs interior speakers and sub

SYN DX 2 runs tower speakers

REVO 12 HP subwoofer in sealed enclosure. 

 

-M220 Premium

Sinister Series amps

SDX 6 runs interior speakers and dash pods (almost double the power, 6 more speakers than Core)

SDX 2 dedicated to subwoofer. SDX 2500 if 2 subs are selected (double the power to stronger subs)

SDX 2 runs tower speakers (double the power)

Adds dash pods with billet trim and mesh like M240. Dual 3" mids and 1" tweeter per side elevates sound stage and provides driver and OB seat with better experience

REVO 12 XXX competition subwoofer in ported enclosures. Sub#1 is same enclosure and location as M240. Sub#2 is under port side compartment.”

 

Unfortunately, the premium package is a $10,000 MSRP option, and you are stuck with Malibu's tune.  Obviously, the 10k includes the different windshield and other cosmetic features.  If the clipping still occurs, you can't adjust the amps to eliminate it.  I think the better option is to go with the Core package, then replace the amps with Sinister series from your local dealer, then custom tune.  MSRP on the amps is $4,397.  You could sell the Malibu amps and recover some of that.  You could add some additional speakers if you like.

Originally, I planned to do a full stereo delete, and go with a JL Audio system.  Then I saw the new covers on the REV-10s, and I just really like the way they look.  My current plan is to stick with the Core package, and have my local stereo shop upgrade the amps and sub.

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Personally I haven’t been on the new m220 or 240 but a very close friend of mine is running two m240s this year and hates them. Nose dips very easily to the point where it’s almost a safety thing and spray is awful. 
 

Yes this is someone else’s word but he puts nearly a 1000 hours a year on various brands and all the top models.

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I moved from a 20 23MXZ into a 21 M220 last year and in my opinion the boats are on a completely different level. Coming from a 23LSV prior I had thought the 23MXZ had a better wave (with some added lead) as well as rode better when up on plane in comparison to the 23LSV I came from, however in rough water I do think you had to watch the bow more then you did with the 23LSV. Now the M220's wave out of the box is in my opinion on another level compared to the 23MXZ. I never needed to add lead as I had plenty of wave/wake even running a small crew. Actually felt like more of the boat was usable as you could have people in the bow and you didn't need to worry about it dipping where as in the 23MXZ you would have been requesting people to move towards the back. Due to the freeboard and overall weight of the boat it handled rough water well with really no spray issues at all. For the most part on the local smaller lakes I could run around at whatever speed I wanted, now at Lake of the Ozarks you would have to slow down some, but that lake is on another level compared to what most are used to when it comes to rough water. 

 

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