Lake Burton in Georgia looking to ban wake surfing.

[67King]

31 minutes ago, braindamage said:

that being said, I’m a live and let live guy. As soon as wakesurf boats get banned then it’s not long before they come after my ski boat. I live on the lake and I’m willing to accept the ongoing changes to sports and for the consequences it brings to my property.

 

We have a lakehouse, too.  Back of a cove, so we are pretty protected.  Disagree with the notion that if they ban wakesurfing, they'll go after ski boats.  Look at some fo the data provided.

 

IMHO, it is all part of a whole system.  If folks surf far from shore, then the waves will generally dissipate to the point of minimal impact.  If they are closer to shore, it will impact it more.  I'd love to surf far from the shore.  But freakin' idiots pulling tubes that are all over teh place and completely unpredictable, combined with teenagers on jet skis who like jumping your wakes at 50MPH, and finally the fishermen who think that the entirety of the lake belongs to them, flying by as closely as they can, personally drive me to try to stay close to the shore.  Fortunately, there are areas where I can do that where there are no improvements, and in some cases, rock cliff faces.  Of course, my lake also allows megayachts, and in the Fall in particular, the "Vol Navy" heads downtown, and those monsters throw some serious wakes.

Edited July 11, 2021 by 67King

[braindamage]

39 minutes ago, 67King said:

Disagree with the notion that if they ban wakesurfing, they'll go after ski boats. 

I’m not saying they WILL…I just don’t want to step onto a slippery slope. I’ll even put up with idiot jet skiers. 

[justgary]

5 minutes ago, braindamage said:

I’ll even put up with idiot jet skiers.

Whoa.  That's going too far....

[smileysteve]

58 minutes ago, 67King said:

Disagree with the notion that if they ban wakesurfing, they'll go after ski boats. 

It seems legally dubious to be able to do this. How do you define a wake surf boat? A v drive? Ballast tanks (applies to wakeboarding, live wells, and some trim systems)? Angle of transom?

Does the dnr only enforce public ramps? (There are a lot of private ones at Burton). Do they pull over every surfer? You can surf a nautique 200 with a 9' board or a hydrofoil.

Now that Cobalt and Yamaha have surf options it's even more confusing 

[justgary]

2 minutes ago, smileysteve said:

It seems legally dubious to be able to do this. How do you define a wake surf boat? A v drive? Ballast tanks (applies to wakeboarding, live wells, and some trim systems)? Angle of transom?

Does the dnr only enforce public ramps? (There are a lot of private ones at Burton). Do they pull over every surfer? You can surf a nautique 200 with a 9' board or a hydrofoil.

Now that Cobalt and Yamaha have surf options it's even more confusing 

Government entities can get very creative when they want to do something.  About twenty years ago few counties over from me, the canoe rental places and fishermen started complaining about people driving their jetskis up the creek from the lake to visit the big set of springs along the creek.  They had no respect for other users on the creek and would roar past everybody, generally making a ruckus every weekend.  The sheriff was generally tired of the situation and having to post a deputy to patrol a little creek all the time.  Finally, somebody got hit by a jetski as it rounded a bend (this is a small creek, perhaps 30 feet wide in the narrow spots).  The county commission passed an ordinance making it illegal to use more than 10 HP on that section of the creek.  We used to take my fishing boat with a 25 HP up the creek, but I can't do that any more.

So yes, a few people *can* ruin it for everybody.

[smileysteve]

6 minutes ago, justgary said:

So yes, a few people *can* ruin it for everybody

A 10hp or all electric are possible; but it's not what lake Burton residents would want; because they're either in 24'+ pontoons or cruisers and likely more horsepower, higher speed capable, and heavier weight.

 

[FX41]

On 7/8/2021 at 6:49 PM, justgary said:

My mother has lived in the same house on the water since 1967.  Back then, an 18' boat was big.  Erosion from all sorts of things (but mostly boats) has taken its toll, and I have repaired her waterfront several times over the years.  She originally had a nice, wide white sand beach, but now has a rip-rap embankment made with large limestone rocks.  I usually go out and watch the boats go by when I visit her, and the larger wakes easily move the larger (roughly 60#) rocks as they hit the shore.  The last time I repaired it, I paid $15,000 for materials (fabric, rock, and backfill dirt).  It really bugs me that I can't charge a maintenance fee to the clueless boat drivers who come by just beyond the end of the dock at maximum wake speed.  Please note that I'm not even talking about surfing per se, just bigger wakes in general.

If your lake is ready to ban your activity, you might want to take a look at the way you actually behave while you are on the water.  Offering a finger and blaming the erosion and other issues on wind is really not going to win a case for you.  When the neighbors are in their boat on glassy water and you ride by, they have a clue that it wasn't wind.  The fact that they are "old money" isn't even important, except maybe that they have more free time to write letters and go to government meetings.

So what are you saying?  We as wakesurfers should slow down and stop our activity so that other people don't get bothered by us?  And I love how you're assuming we all just flip them off.  On my lake, by far the rudest boaters are the old guys in their s***ty boats pulling tubers right in front of me. 

[67King]

1 hour ago, smileysteve said:

It seems legally dubious to be able to do this. How do you define a wake surf boat? A v drive? Ballast tanks (applies to wakeboarding, live wells, and some trim systems)? Angle of transom?

 

Simple, you ban an activity.  And I'm sure if they ban it, they'll be on top of things enough to define by speed, distance from boat, and probably throw an age disclaimer in there (i.e. to ensure kids on trainer skis aren't caught up).

 

[shawndoggy]

21 hours ago, IXFE said:

2) the conditions around ANY property can and do change over time (increased speed limits, noisy neighbors, zoning, new strip mall around the corner, lake drains due to dam break, blocked views, school boundaries change, etc etc). The rest of the world deals with this, but waterfront owners somehow think they should be immune.  

I'm not actually sure the rest of the world does deal with this by just rolling over and going away.  NIMBYism is alive and well.  At least where I've always lived all of those issues (zoning, school districts, views, a walmart in the neighborhood) have always brought people out to voice their opinions and assert themselves.  I'm not sure why folks with surfboats would think that they are immune from similar feedback from impacted landowners.  I'm ignorant of the property values on Lake Burton, GA, but I would guess that the best predictor of whether waterfront owners are successful in getting surfing banned from their particular body of water is wealth.  Wealthy taxpayers tend to get their way when regulating others (i.e. few landfills, refineries, and freeways move into/through wealthy areas).  

[Woodski]

You know surf wakes are big when Sir Richard Branson said he could see them from Space Ship 2 Unity 

[justgary]

19 hours ago, FX41 said:

So what are you saying?  We as wakesurfers should slow down and stop our activity so that other people don't get bothered by us?  And I love how you're assuming we all just flip them off.  On my lake, by far the rudest boaters are the old guys in their s***ty boats pulling tubers right in front of me. 

I didn't assume that you all just flip people off.  I have had boaters flip me off when I suggested that they stay further out from docks.  So here's what I'm saying.  You are responsible for damage you cause with your wake, whether you deny it or not.  The damage is usually incremental, making it very easy for you to deny causing damage, but it doesn't mean that you didn't cause it.  If people are really bothered by what you do, I'm saying take a look at what you do and how you do it.  If the situation were reversed, would you complain about the activity that is causing damage?

Since we are all into disclaimers, I never suggested that anyone ban any activity.  I never complained to any government agency (well, except that one call to the Coast Guard about the 52' cabin boat).  I have suggested to a few local boaters that they should take their big wakes elsewhere because they are causing damage (and not because I don't like their activity).  I hate to see anybody ban anything.  I think that our rights come with responsibilities attached, and not meeting our responsibilities is what gets things eventually banned.

Here's a decent example:  I buy the big piece of land right next door to you and put in a gun range.  I get all of the permits and build the range so that every bullet stays on the property.  Sooner or later, you get tired of the noise day and night (because my classes don't end until 10 PM every night) and start complaining.  You tell me that you are starting to get hearing damage because of the nonstop shooting going on next door.  I can easily tell you that you are getting old now, and your hearing is expected to decline.  I can tell you that it's just too bad, because I have all the permits and I'm legal.  I can tell you that you just have to expect change.  I can tell you that you hate the noise simply because you told me that guns are "icky" when we first met.  None of these things help the situation.

Or, I can look you in the eye and ask you what I can do to mitigate your concerns.  Do I need to build a wall to replace the barbed wire fence I have already?  Do I need to put blast tubes in to help redirect the sound?  Will you ever be 100% happy?  Probably not, but we can continue to work together to try to minimize your issues with my "progress."  If I wait until you round up the neighbors and get the local government involved, I'm only on the defense.

If you see other wake boats doing things that you know shouldn't happen because others will complain, perhaps you could ride over and chat with them.  They might take the lesson from you a little better than from the guy on the end of his dock.

[UWSkier]

As with most things, the problem is likely more that the laws that we have need to be enforced better and/or laws need amending, not that we need more laws.  If 100' is too close for safe wakes, make the law 200', then enforce it.

[IXFE]

6 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

I'm not actually sure the rest of the world does deal with this by just rolling over and going away.  NIMBYism is alive and well.  At least where I've always lived all of those issues (zoning, school districts, views, a walmart in the neighborhood) have always brought people out to voice their opinions and assert themselves.  I'm not sure why folks with surfboats would think that they are immune from similar feedback from impacted landowners.  I'm ignorant of the property values on Lake Burton, GA, but I would guess that the best predictor of whether waterfront owners are successful in getting surfing banned from their particular body of water is wealth.  Wealthy taxpayers tend to get their way when regulating others (i.e. few landfills, refineries, and freeways move into/through wealthy areas).  

Now you’re just being argumentative for the sport of it, which for whatever reason seems to be the reaction I draw from you time and time again. So rather than continue down this rabbit hole, I’ll just leave it where it is… 

Edit: patiently waiting for Shawn to say the gun range analogy is even more ridiculous than the golf course… suspect I’ll be waiting a while. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by IXFE

[Chia]

If your dock isn't strong enough to withstand waves, how is that my fault?

People that think they own the water because they own the adjacent land and then want to control what activities are allowed on said water are off base.

[hethj7]

I am more sympathetic to the folks that have been on the lakes for years with property as boats and wakes have gotten bigger, although generally don’t advocate bans at all.

I just bought lake front this year with a dock on the main channel.  I knew the risks when I bought it and know I will spend more on maintenance than those that are protected by a cove.  
 

I am not sure how you do it, but more education, common courtesy, and yes, enforcement of current rules would help out a lot of lakes. 

[shawndoggy]

15 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Now you’re just being argumentative for the sport of it, which for whatever reason seems to be the reaction I draw from you time and time again. So rather than continue down this rabbit hole, I’ll just leave it where it is… 

Edit: patiently waiting for Shawn to say the gun range analogy is even more ridiculous than the golf course… suspect I’ll be waiting a while. 

one thing that gun ranges (I think -- limited experience?) and golf courses have in common is etiquette.  There are long lists of unwritten rules about how things are done, and conformity by participants makes the experience better for everyone.  

Wakesurfing (and big easy waves especially) are still rather new, and the culture of self policing hasn't really developed.

I'm sure there are lakes that are the equivalent of the local par 3 public course where rules are more relaxed (but still exist), and I'm sure there are lakes where the locals have developed rules of etiquette over many years.  

My solution -- get a foil! burn less gas, go faster, make bigger turns, and stay friends with the peeps on shore.

[spikew919]

[67King]

1 hour ago, Chia said:

If your dock isn't strong enough to withstand waves, how is that my fault?

People that think they own the water because they own the adjacent land and then want to control what activities are allowed on said water are off base.

I guess you've never seen a big a** roller come in and hit a floating dock or a hydrohoist.  Normally, the adjacent land is more impacted, but there are exceptions.  And property owners actually DO have the legal right to build docks on the water, so long as it is approved.  I don't own the air above the land, but that doesn't give neighbors the right to throw stones through my windows.  It is unreasonable to expect me to have to use Lexan for windows.

 

All that said, there are zoning laws to protect landowners, blah, blah. blah.  If Norfolk Southern wants to come through and build a railroad, they have to get around that, or buy out the land owners.  Same thing if someone wants to put in an airport or other significant source of noise/pollution/whatever.  It may not be the airport developer's fault that my house isn't soundproof to jet engines.  But that doesn't give him carte blanche to act in his self interest with reckless abandon.  There is no equivalent for what is going on, here.  That is what the landowners are trying to fix.  Wakesurfing is a relatively new activity, and for a great many homeowners on the water, their ownership precedes it.  Lakeside homes aren't like normal ones, the transience is very, very low.  My family owned a lakehouse for over 40 years when my grandmother sold it.  Lots of things happened between 1950 and the early 1990's.

 

Don't forget, all of us here enjoy watersports.  And nowadays, that means surfing more than anything else.  So a minority of us own land on a lake.  People should listen to what we have to say.  If boaters can't self police, then other things will happen.  One of those things may be banning the activity.  And none of us want that.

 

I mean, really, a lot of this boils down to just common courtesy.  If folks would be courteous, rather than belligerent, then we wouldn't have problems.

Edited July 12, 2021 by 67King

[Bozboat]

7 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

…..Wealthy taxpayers tend to get their way when regulating others (i.e. few landfills, refineries, and freeways move into/through wealthy areas).  

The wealthy may be more politically connected than others but condemnation awards are generally based on fair market value of the land and improvements taken for a public purpose.  Need 500 acres for a landfill, your project is not going to be near as feasible if you take land from populated well improved areas like downtown Dallas vs Mingus.  

[SouthsideBoarder]

Not trying to place blame on any specific party but education to all surf boat drivers is part of what is needed. How to get it out there is a whole other topic. 
 

I only know what I do as far as surf etiquette because of the crew and other sites. Many people that I personally know got there education from me because they either saw people surfing or surfed with me and bought a boat. I wonder what percentage of surf boat owners actually read up on this topic before buying a boat or surfing. I know when I bought my first and second surf boat from two different dealers neither one gave me a suggestion or recommendation on how to drive it while surfing with regards to courtesy to others. I’m not saying that this is their responsibility as I could have asked but I already knew what I do because of the crew. Maybe many dealers actually offer this education and I’m unaware. From the way many of the surf boats drive on our lake and give each other ugly looks and the finger I’m guessing they don’t read up on surf etiquette. 
 

A possible start is when selling a boat whether private party of dealer is to educate the person buying on use or directing them here for reading as this is such a valuable resource. Anyone who sells or owns a surf boat has skin in the game if they want to keep this going as long as possible. Home owners on the water should find ways to educate those they can in a respectful manner. This coming from someone whose family has owned lake front property for over 60 years. 

[drewski300]

12 hours ago, SouthsideBoarder said:

Not trying to place blame on any specific party but education to all surf boat drivers is part of what is needed. How to get it out there is a whole other topic. 
 

I only know what I do as far as surf etiquette because of the crew and other sites. Many people that I personally know got there education from me because they either saw people surfing or surfed with me and bought a boat. I wonder what percentage of surf boat owners actually read up on this topic before buying a boat or surfing. I know when I bought my first and second surf boat from two different dealers neither one gave me a suggestion or recommendation on how to drive it while surfing with regards to courtesy to others. I’m not saying that this is their responsibility as I could have asked but I already knew what I do because of the crew. Maybe many dealers actually offer this education and I’m unaware. From the way many of the surf boats drive on our lake and give each other ugly looks and the finger I’m guessing they don’t read up on surf etiquette. 
 

A possible start is when selling a boat whether private party of dealer is to educate the person buying on use or directing them here for reading as this is such a valuable resource. Anyone who sells or owns a surf boat has skin in the game if they want to keep this going as long as possible. Home owners on the water should find ways to educate those they can in a respectful manner. This coming from someone whose family has owned lake front property for over 60 years. 

I said this before in a similar conversation but we bought our lake home and a surf boat 4 years ago, we were only given instructions on how to turn the boat on and produce a wave. It was a 1 hr on water training. Having never owned property on a lake and not grown up on the water, we were new to it all. Between Malibu (whatever brand) and the dealership, they need to educate the boat owners a lot more. Set aside, an hour sessions for how to operate the boat and another hour on etiquette, buoys, etc . And for those who are experienced, maybe take the time to reinforce etiquette. Make it mandatory for every tow boat sold. Driving a car is much easier and it requires a test. Driving a boat into a left sided slip with a left to right wind with a boat on the right side isn't something that most people can do without a lot of experience!

Lake homes continue to increase in value and some of that is in part because we are finding more uses for the lake. So it's tough when someone is so eager to complain about wake boats but are all too willing to cash that check when they sell their property. As others have said, with the good comes the bad. I'm not looking to sue the fisherman even though they were possibly the group that brought in the zebra mussels. 

[Michigan boarder]

A mandatory boating safety class should be in place wherein they cover all of this stuff.  Every 3 year renewal or something too.

We are really fortunate to be on a body of water connected to Lake Michigan, so that means Lake Michigan rules apply.  There is a separate issue going on regarding our lake quality and it's pretty amazing to see wealthy property owners complaining "There's seaweed on my shore" as a company hired by the lake board is working on some solutions to remediate that & improve lake quality.  Some residents are extremely upset and have a "you can't do this to me and my property" approach when it's something being done to remedy the lake that is used by the whole county/state.

On our other lake years ago we were on a point, and consequently boats would come within 30' of our dock when they were cruising and talking and didn't realize the shoreline contour had changed.  I built the dock myself reinforcing it with 8" pylons to withstand anything that the lake could deliver.  My 50 year old seawall was taking a beating, and I was expecting to riprap in front of it to keep the shoreline intact, which would mean losing my clean step from seawall to sand but I figured I would instead go nuts trying to stop waves from hitting it.  And not surf waves, but 25' boats cruising along at 10 mph.  My wife took an alternate approach and would wave boats off (and go from fun in the sun to pissed about it for an hour), or give a fisherman a dirty look that trolled 8' from the dock (I'd ask if he'd caught anything and what bait he was using), etc.  I guess that's the long way of saying my approach was to overbuild the frontage rather than hope that people would be courteous or even aware.

[BigCreek]

On 7/11/2021 at 1:06 PM, justgary said:

Any chance that the damage due to golf balls was paid by the golf course or their HOA?

Pretty sure it's referred to as something like "assumed risk". As in, you chose to move into a house on a golf course. Some golfers are terrible and shank balls all over the place. You and your stuff will get nailed periodically. If you don't like it, move to the other side of the street. 

[REHinH20]

26 minutes ago, BigCreek said:

Pretty sure it's referred to as something like "assumed risk". As in, you chose to move into a house on a golf course. Some golfers are terrible and shank balls all over the place. You and your stuff will get nailed periodically. If you don't like it, move to the other side of the street. 

I think it's a little different situation - if someone breaks your window with a golf ball, they are responsible for the damage - theoretically their insurance would cover the damage if they chose to take that route.  Damage on the lake is caused by many different boat's rollers slowly taking down the integrity of the shoreline.  Yes, there is some sort of assumed risk inherent in owning a property like this, but that's what they are trying to mitigate, isn't it?  I don't think as boat owners us taking the approach "if you don't like it move" is the way to make any of this go away, any  more than someone telling us "if you don't like it find another lake"!!  It's best to find some sort of common ground. Like @SouthsideBoarder mentioned with education and a more courteous attitude.

[braindamage]

Unfortunately empathy, courtesy, and kindness are in short supply in the current US culture.

my best ski buddy and I talk with lots of other boaters, especially if we see discourteous or unlawful driving. We approach in a friendly manner, ask about their boat, how they like the lake, etc. we always bring up courtesy, good boat driving practices, and adherence to ordinances in the theme of making sure everyone gets to enjoy themselves and nobody loses their privileges due to a reckless few. We never point specifically to their behavior in our discussion, but more than 50% of the time we do see some change in driving.

it does take time, though, and many times we can’t find a pause in the action to talk.