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2021 21VLX has a weaker hole shot for skiing than our 2001 21' Sunsetter??


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oneramirez

Our new 2021 21VLX with the M5Di engine and a 15x14 1951 prop seems to have a much weaker pull out of the hole for skiing than our 2001 Sunsetter 21' VLX did.  Anyone have this same issue?  I felt like I was dragged forever trying to get up behind the new boat.

It also has a hard time maintaining more than 11 MPH while surfing left side with the PNP bags filled (and all tanks filled 100% with 3-4 people in boat).  Have to put wedge in #1 or #2 position versus the standard "Surf Left" preset #4 position or else it bogs down to 9 MPH.

Went to Wakemaker.com and ordered a new prop to see if that helps.  They recommended the ACME 2247 15 x 14.25.  Hoping that makes a difference and doesn't hurt top end too bad (currently top end is right around 40 MPH).

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granddaddy55
17 minutes ago, oneramirez said:

Our new 2021 21VLX with the M5Di engine and a 15x14 1951 prop seems to have a much weaker pull out of the hole for skiing than our 2001 Sunsetter 21' VLX did.  Anyone have this same issue?  I felt like I was dragged forever trying to get up behind the new boat.

It also has a hard time maintaining more than 11 MPH while surfing left side with the PNP bags filled (and all tanks filled 100% with 3-4 people in boat).  Have to put wedge in #1 or #2 position versus the standard "Surf Left" preset #4 position or else it bogs down to 9 MPH.

Went to Wakemaker.com and ordered a new prop to see if that helps.  They recommended the ACME 2247 15 x 14.25.  Hoping that makes a difference and doesn't hurt top end too bad (currently top end is right around 40 MPH).

if it solves your low end problems it will affect the big end 

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20 minutes ago, oneramirez said:

Our new 2021 21VLX with the M5Di engine and a 15x14 1951 prop seems to have a much weaker pull out of the hole for skiing than our 2001 Sunsetter 21' VLX did.  Anyone have this same issue?  I felt like I was dragged forever trying to get up behind the new boat.

It also has a hard time maintaining more than 11 MPH while surfing left side with the PNP bags filled (and all tanks filled 100% with 3-4 people in boat).  Have to put wedge in #1 or #2 position versus the standard "Surf Left" preset #4 position or else it bogs down to 9 MPH.

Went to Wakemaker.com and ordered a new prop to see if that helps.  They recommended the ACME 2247 15 x 14.25.  Hoping that makes a difference and doesn't hurt top end too bad (currently top end is right around 40 MPH).

I have a 2017 21 VLX so I have a different engine.  If you are surfing with the wedge at 4, that is most likely too much wedge.  I typically fill everything up and also add 600 lbs of bow weight.  If you have 3-4 adults, that can make a big difference also.  Put them in front instead of the back.  With the wedge at 4 and 4 adults, you are probably way to heavy in the back end.

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well, the new boat weighs a ton more, has a lot more wetted surface, a deeper V, and a torque curve that peaks higher than your '01 Monsoon did.  It's not a surprise the '01 gets up and going faster.  Prop will help, but physics is physics.

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oneramirez
7 minutes ago, UWSkier said:

well, the new boat weighs a ton more, has a lot more wetted surface, a deeper V, and a torque curve that peaks higher than your '01 Monsoon did.  It's not a surprise the '01 gets up and going faster.  Prop will help, but physics is physics.

Good points.  It's amazing how different they've made the same length (21') boats.  But given the incredible torque needed to do surfing, I guess I just didn't expect getting up a skier to be an issue at all (expected more problems with top end speed and obviously wake size).

You can tell a BIG difference in weight just in towing the boat with the truck.  

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18 minutes ago, oneramirez said:

Good points.  It's amazing how different they've made the same length (21') boats.  But given the incredible torque needed to do surfing, I guess I just didn't expect getting up a skier to be an issue at all (expected more problems with top end speed and obviously wake size).

You can tell a BIG difference in weight just in towing the boat with the truck.  

Ski with the bow ballast full and see if that helps. Also, don’t just hammer the throttle. I roll it forward progressively while pulling up a skier. My vtx with the M5 is very strong out of the hole. It’s not like my old txi of course, but like UW said, physics is physics. A trade off I’m more than willing to make to be able to surf five minutes after skiing! (And have the wife happier about the Bimini, layout, storage, etc ;) )

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1 hour ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

Ski with the bow ballast full and see if that helps. Also, don’t just hammer the throttle. I roll it forward progressively while pulling up a skier. My vtx with the M5 is very strong out of the hole. It’s not like my old txi of course, but like UW said, physics is physics. A trade off I’m more than willing to make to be able to surf five minutes after skiing! (And have the wife happier about the Bimini, layout, storage, etc ;) )

How much more aggressive are you on the throttle pulling a slalom skier up vs a wakesurfer?

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oneramirez
1 hour ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

Ski with the bow ballast full and see if that helps. Also, don’t just hammer the throttle. I roll it forward progressively while pulling up a skier. My vtx with the M5 is very strong out of the hole. It’s not like my old txi of course, but like UW said, physics is physics. A trade off I’m more than willing to make to be able to surf five minutes after skiing! (And have the wife happier about the Bimini, layout, storage, etc ;) )

Yeah, I think it could be partly the driver as well.  I didn't notice much issue when I was driving and pulling up my sister (at least she never complained and seemed to pop up like she always does), but when my dad pulled me it was rough (granted I weigh a bit more than my sister :) ). When I pulled up my sister, I did a smooth, but relatively quick drop of the throttle.  

We will have to try a few different attempts to see if there's a best practice on the throttle that improves the experience.  I suspect it'll never be as good as the old boat, but can be better than what I experienced last weekend.

 

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oneramirez
19 minutes ago, Steve B. said:

You don't have the boat watered down for skiing do you?

Steve B.

Nope.  Just the bow at 60%, the driver and two observers.  Gas tank was 80% full.  I know I can get a better wake by losing an observer and having less fuel in the tank, but I never thought I'd be dragging on the start...

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3 hours ago, Hemmy said:

How much more aggressive are you on the throttle pulling a slalom skier up vs a wakesurfer?

I use a pretty slow roll forward for surfing, so a fair amount I'd say. You just can't go from 0 to 100 in one super fast movement. I've found in these boats and my truck that matter a progressive but steep curve is the best for acceleration. Not just matting it.

2 hours ago, oneramirez said:

Yeah, I think it could be partly the driver as well.  I didn't notice much issue when I was driving and pulling up my sister (at least she never complained and seemed to pop up like she always does), but when my dad pulled me it was rough (granted I weigh a bit more than my sister :) ). When I pulled up my sister, I did a smooth, but relatively quick drop of the throttle.  

We will have to try a few different attempts to see if there's a best practice on the throttle that improves the experience.  I suspect it'll never be as good as the old boat, but can be better than what I experienced last weekend.

 

Haha, those physics again! I'd do a few dry runs without a skier. Have your dad make a "run" and then you. See if you can tell any difference between the acceleration or even time it. Then try it with a skier.

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Somebody please explain how going from a 15 X 14 to a 15 X 14.25 is going to help with hole shot.  Going up in pitch is the wrong direction....

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Have an A22 w/MD5, relatively similar.   We only tried it with a 135lb Slalom skier but it puller her right up and the wake was decent and better than we thought it would be (coming from a 2006 Sanger V210 w/Black Scorpion).  That was with 6 people in the boat, Gas at 80% and some water in the front.

I think the key is relatively smooth throttle acceleration and enough weight in the bow so that the front end doesn't come up and your prop becomes inefficient.

Surfing I can hit 11 with all the PNP full and PW at 4, but 4 to me is too much...should be 2 or 3 depending on the rider.  I agree the boat can really drag getting going with it's nose up (and the prop shooting down instead of back), so the key seems to be more weight in the bow or balancing the PNP or people so the bow stays down.  If the driver can't see over the bow, then the prop is probably really having to work to hard

 

 

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oneramirez
2 hours ago, justgary said:

Somebody please explain how going from a 15 X 14 to a 15 X 14.25 is going to help with hole shot.  Going up in pitch is the wrong direction....

I just thought I’d try the wakemaker recommendation. Guess that may not make any difference huh (or may make it worse)?  Don’t know much about pitch (clearly)…

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30 minutes ago, 23LSVOwner said:

Has anyone tried going into the settings and changing the throttle profile to aggressive?

Good call.  I have my boat set to aggressive throttle response.  I happen to like it that way.  It's a little sensitive around the hoist and docking, but again, I like it that way.

 

Interesting point by the OP here and as has been stated, it's tough to defy the laws of physics.  There's simply no way you'll get the same throttle response from your '01 SSLX to your '21 VTX.  I noted a difference in throttle response between my '97 SSLX and my current '06 RLXI.  The RLXI has throttle by wire and the throttle response is consistent every time regardless of how hard you throw it down.  The rate of acceleration doesn't seem to change.  The SSLX on the other hand was vastly different simply due to the throttle cable vs throttle by wire, IME.  You could literally pull a skier out of the ski with the SSLX.  Not so much with the RLXi I have.  Again, this is my experience only, FWIW.

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2 hours ago, 23LSVOwner said:

Has anyone tried going into the settings and changing the throttle profile to aggressive?

Forgot about that! Next time I ski I will for the second set to see how it is!

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3 hours ago, 23LSVOwner said:

Has anyone tried going into the settings and changing the throttle profile to aggressive?

Mine has been set to aggressive since day #2.  Coming from previous direct drives and an axis, I wanted the throttle to mimic the DDs.  My wife doesn't like it but just hits "dock mode" when putting the boat on the trailer.  

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Baggerlance

Todays fat boats are built for the current wakeboard/surf trend. They compromise on slalom performance. I really don't think you can have it all. Pick your sport and buy the boat based on what gives the most happy times. The Response may be the good times boat if you like popping to the surface with little drag and having the perfect wake. If you need to throw a wave get a big heavy boat. Its all about the most fun.

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I have a 2017 21’ VLX. My hole shot was horrible when i first purchased the boat with it loaded down and trying to surf. Would barely plane off when full of water and people. The prop that came with my boat was an “all around” 14.75” pitch prop that can do a “little bit” of everything, but not great at anything.  We surf more than anything, and ski and tube occasionally.  I changed it to a 12” pitch prop and it was like night and day performance. It’s like 4 Wheel Drive for your boat. I can now have all ballast tanks full, plus the plug and play extra 1500 lbs fat sacks added and 7-8 people and surf and plane off with no problems. One thing that will help your take off fully loaded for surfing or for under 25 mph cruising is to lower the power wedge to “Lift” position and that will allow the wedge to pick up or lift the back end of boat and will plane off better, and also will be ready to adjust to a setting to increase wave height when surfing. 

Edited by Bayoujoe
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  • 2 weeks later...

I have the same boat, 2021, 21' VLX Diamond Ski hull with MD5 but with the OJ V4 1997- 15 X 12 "High altitude" prop  (550' elevation) and it pulls me out on a double boot 68" O'Brien Synchro at 245# well. It's not tear your arms out of your sockets fast but does well. Also doesn't matter if one persons on the boat or 6, same pull every time. My top speed is 38/39.

It also doesn't matter how much weight is in the boat it will do what you want any time. We surfed completely full of balllast with 10 people and foil at 4 you were riding a wheelie trying not to slam into the boat the push was intense. we surfed most of that day on 1 or 2.

The one thing I'm struggling with is the ski wake sucks on my off side right to left. The rooster tail is unrelenting and after orbiting the moon a few times crossing I've been playing with rope lengths, front ballast, and speed. I do think a different prop would flatten it out some. Don't tell the wife there's a potential $700 dollar fix as I think the 10k 1990's ski boat is a much better option! Everyone loves riding in the new boat, some nasty, grungy, stripped down bare bones pimple waked ski boat sitting on the other side of the dock I think is my best answer. Hard to get a legit wake and a ski wake out of the same boat!

All in all I love my VLX, bigger wouldn't solve much on my lake and the VTX was too small inside which sounds funny but that extra foot makes a difference!

my 2 cents....

 

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jjackkrash

When I'm fat it doesn't matter how much throttle there is I have a hard time getting out of the hole.  When I'm 195-210 I pop out of the hole on a 68" ski.  When I'm 220-230 I have pretty hard time.  Ski size and body weight are a huge factor.  That might not be your issue but that information was also not provided.  

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oneramirez
6 hours ago, jjackkrash said:

When I'm fat it doesn't matter how much throttle there is I have a hard time getting out of the hole.  When I'm 195-210 I pop out of the hole on a 68" ski.  When I'm 220-230 I have pretty hard time.  Ski size and body weight are a huge factor.  That might not be your issue but that information was also not provided.  

I’m 6’2” and 215.  Been right there for the past few years.  Definitely a major difference between the old boat and the new, but yeah, I’m not the weight I was 15 years ago either.  :) Never hurts to have some added incentive to shed some pounds, that’s for sure!

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I have a 2017 vlx with 2 550 pnp bags in the rear locker. I never know how many people I'm going to have so this is what has worked well for me for surfing. I fill everything up to max then I select surf left and do a run with nobody behind the boat. As you say, the nose comes up and the boat won't hit the speed target. I then start dumping rear ballast. Eventually the nose will come down and I can hit my target speed and the wave looks awesome-voila you have reached your perfect ballast weight. I never have to go past 3 on wake shape, but if you want to go to 4, repeat the above procedure. Good luck. I can't help you with the skiing. Also, I never have to yank surfers out of the water-I do a gradual roll on as others have suggested based on what is happening with the surfer in tow.

 

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