Towing with an EV

[Eagleboy99]

1 minute ago, Slayer said:

Even more ridiculous is the fact that diesel fuel is more expensive!  Makes zero sense.

It's about 5% cheaper up here.

[martinarcher]

5 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

It's about 5% cheaper up here.

Ultra low sulfer?  I think that's what hoses us.  Before that came about it was a good bit cheaper.  It averages about $0.40-0.50 more expensive than unleaded here.

[Eagleboy99]

3 minutes ago, martinarcher said:

Ultra low sulfer?  I think that's what hoses us.  Before that came about it was a good bit cheaper.  It averages about $0.40-0.50 more expensive than unleaded here.

I'm not a diesel user but...  The sulphur content of diesel fuel sold in Canada has been reduced through regulations. Since 2006 the limit has been 15 parts per million.   How's that stack up to US?

[martinarcher]

4 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

I'm not a diesel user but...  The sulphur content of diesel fuel sold in Canada has been reduced through regulations. Since 2006 the limit has been 15 parts per million.   How's that stack up to US?

Same 15ppm.  The old stuff (pre 1993) was 5000ppm - you get even more miles out of it!

[Cole2001]

Some of the shell stations here in BC have low sulphur and ultra low sulphur diesel. Pretty sure one just more cleaning additives to it. 
 

Diesel is always cheaper than gas in BC and in Alberta it can go either way. 

[justgary]

50% towing MPG is consistent with my estimates also.

Towing weight is not the only factor.  Wind resistance is a big deal at highway speeds.  Stop and go kills you because you have to accelerate the extra mass, and highway speeds get you with air drag (which is proportional to the square of velocity).

[RyanB]

11 hours ago, martinarcher said:

It averages about $0.40-0.50 more expensive than unleaded here.

Half of that is the difference in state tax of gas vs diesel.

https://igentax.com/gas-tax-state/

[jjackkrash]

Sis got over 19 mpg towing a 7k lbs. fiver this weekend with a pass in the middle using a baby duramax and her half ton.  I averaged around 7 mpg towing a 20k lbs. fiver with the big duramax (I was at 5.8 mpg from my house to the top of the hill, lol).  Of course, I'm almost 14 feet tall and had the cruise set at 78 for a big chuck of the way (with some decent winds) and held around 75 up the pass, and she sets her cruise at 60.

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by jjackkrash

[martinarcher]

20k in tow...now that's towing!!!

[uk_exile]

It's not that surprising that a heavy non aerodynamic truck pulling a  semi aero boat would only use 15-30% more fuel ,whereas an aero dynamic car or SUV towing a semi aero boat would proportionately increase energy use by greater percentage.

[qbeam]

Anyone notice he was driving around 50 maybe 60mph on the freeway? I wonder what his power usage would be if he were 65-70 mph.

[teamerickson]

EVs are more efficient at slower speeds. 

[Eagleboy99]

1 hour ago, teamerickson said:

EVs are more efficient at slower speeds. 

That makes no sense.  Maximum efficiency is usually near 75% of rated load for electric motors.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Eagleboy99
Spelling

[teamerickson]

6 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

That makes no sense.  Maximum efficiency is usually near 75% of rated load for electric motors.

I have a Tesla model 3. It consumes more energy going 65 then 25. I believe a lot has to do with wind resistance. 

[Eagleboy99]

32 minutes ago, teamerickson said:

I have a Tesla model 3. It consumes more energy going 65 then 25. I believe a lot has to do with wind resistance. 

But it uses more power per mile due to motor efficiency.  Now if you want to talk drag, that is a different story.  Drag goes up as the cube of windspeed, so more energy is needed but if the motor is running at 75% efficiency, then the energy cost per mile is less.

[teamerickson]

43 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

But it uses more power per mile due to motor efficiency.  Now if you want to talk drag, that is a different story.  Drag goes up as the cube of windspeed, so more energy is needed but if the motor is running at 75% efficiency, then the energy cost per mile is less.

I guess I shouldn't have used efficiency. You will use more energy in an EV going 75 then 50. The watts per mile is higher. So, you will use more energy to go the same distance. So no, the energy used per mile is higher. It will cost you more. 

So I would deduce that you can cover more miles towing at lower speeds  

  https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/amp32603216/ev-range-explained/

Edited June 3, 2021 by teamerickson

[shawndoggy]

1 hour ago, Eagleboy99 said:

That makes no sense.  Maximum efficiency is usually near 75% of rated load for electric motors.

Everything is gonna be "more efficient" (energy per mile / range) at lower speeds because drag.  ice or electric or flintsone.  Let me know when you find any tow rig that goes farther or consumes less energy at 80 than 60.

[Sixball]

I have not looked at this in some time. But for the most part I think 65 mph is the area our vehicles start showing a large drag gains that made a large difference in fuel and H.P. to overcome the drag. and the increase starts to go up very fast from that.  

[Eagleboy99]

50 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Everything is gonna be "more efficient" (energy per mile / range) at lower speeds because drag.  ice or electric or flintsone.  Let me know when you find any tow rig that goes farther or consumes less energy at 80 than 60.

The original post was that efficiency was best at low speeds:  wrong.

[Eagleboy99]

50 minutes ago, Sixball said:

I have not looked at this in some time. But for the most part I think 65 mph is the area our vehicles start showing a large drag gains that made a large difference in fuel and H.P. to overcome the drag. and the increase starts to go up very fast from that.  

Back in the day I did some wind tunnel testing on cyclists, and although that was lower speed (i.e. 50 kph) there is a sweet spot on motor efficiency and drag ratios.   And yeah, drag = windspeed cubed.  So <insert Star Trek voice here> "more power!!"

Any way...  back to ICE vs. electric. I have associates in Norway.  EVERYONE has a e-vehicle but they all have an ICE vehicle for longer distance trips, esp. in winter.  E is great for city/short distance, but long distance and/or cold?  ICE for the win.

[shawndoggy]

4 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

The original post was that efficiency was best at low speeds:  wrong.

All relative. 55 is definitely “low speed.”  Nobody would reasonably interpret the comment to mean that folks should tow to the ramp at 13 mph.  

Edited June 3, 2021 by shawndoggy

[braindamage]

1 minute ago, Eagleboy99 said:

Back in the day I did some wind tunnel testing on cyclists, and although that was lower speed (i.e. 50 kph) there is a sweet spot on motor efficiency and drag ratios.   And yeah, drag = windspeed cubed.  So <insert Star Trek voice here> "more power!!"

Any way...  back to ICE vs. electric. I have associates in Norway.  EVERYONE has a e-vehicle but they all have an ICE vehicle for longer distance trips, esp. in winter.  E is great for city/short distance, but long distance and/or cold?  ICE for the win.

There is always a sweet spot relative to efficiency and speed.

like I’ve said before, traveling long distance with my EV isn’t a big deal. Probably an extra 15-30 mins every 300 miles. Definitely takes more in winter, but not so much that I’d say it’s a big PITA.

[Eagleboy99]

20 minutes ago, braindamage said:

Probably an extra 15-30 mins every 300 miles. Definitely takes more in winter, but not so much that I’d say it’s a big PITA.

Show me an EV that gets 300 miles in winter.  I'll wait.

BTW - thanks for the graph - informative.

[Eagleboy99]

24 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

All relative. 55 is definitely “low speed.”  Nobody would reasonably interpret the comment to mean that folks should tow to the ramp at 13 mph.  

Sammy Hagar agrees.

[braindamage]

23 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

Show me an EV that gets 300 miles in winter.  I'll wait.

BTW - thanks for the graph - informative.

I never said my EV goes 300 miles in the winter. 

My EV goes 200-250mi in the winter. That would mean that a 300 mile trip would require a charge, which would take about 15-30 mins. Hence what I said...not that big a deal.

if you are just opposed to EV regardless of any information, it would be easier if you just said so.