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2012 23LSV (350 monsoon) error codes 65561, 65563 & 65565 help!


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dandallon
Posted (edited)

I have a '12 23LSV with the indmar 350 monsoon with only 260hrs that has been giving me same type of error codes for the 4 years I've owned it. 2 different Malibu dealers keep telling me it just needs new sensors but I don't trust them... they have supposedly done some troubleshooting but when I pressed them for details, turns out all they've done is a "tune up" with new plugs, wires, etc.  I've replaced the O2 sensors several times and get the same errors within a few hours of use. The boat has always run like a dream, which makes the damn alarm all the more annoying.

Don't tell me to run WOT at the end of each trip and it will clear them out... I have ALWAYS done that and unfortunately we spend most of our time tubing, kneeboarding, and skiing so we're RARELY running slow with ballasts full.

Here are the codes and what the screen (and manual) tells me:

65561 FMI 5 Current below normal or open circuit,  O2 sensor bank A sensor 1

65563 FMI 5 Current below normal or open circuit, O2 sensor bank B sensor 1

65565 FMI 0 Data valid but above normal range, Fuel trim bank a

Here are my questions:

1. Which are bank A vs bank B and sensor 1 vs sensor 2?

2. What does 65561 and 65563, both FMI 5 (Current below normal or open circuit,  O2 sensor bank A/B sensor 1) really mean in real world terms? What do I check next?

3. What does the 65565 FMI 0 (Data valid but above normal range, Fuel trim bank A) really mean and how do I troubleshoot that? I read something about it meaning a "lean condition" so I checked fuel pressure at the fuel rail and it jumps to 60 with key up and stays there if I start the engine, but drops to 30 within a few seconds of key up if I don't start the engine or after killing the engine. I have a new fuel regulator/filter on the way. 

Thanks in advance!!!

 

 

Edited by dandallon
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I had the same codes same motor. I sold my boat with over 750 hours and I had those codes for years.  I had both cats replaced and all o2 sensors, code never went away. The last year I owned it, it threw those codes all summer long.  I put 150 hours on it last year and that same code came back. It ran fine. 

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TNgillster

@dwc032my 012 throws the 66020 amd 66019 codes. Did you ever figure out how to silence the audible scream alarm or just silence it every three minutes?

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Posted (edited)

I had a buddy put a piece of black tape over the alarm and it silenced it by at least 75%. Well I should say I think it was a piece of black tape...lol

 

Edited by dwc032
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dandallon

Guys, these responses aren't very encouraging! The alarm drives me so crazy I'm tempted to sell this thing while the market is hot and go without for a while until prices stabilize.

Seriously, though... anyone have any insight as to what to check next? Injectors, CATs, manifolds, put O2 sensor spacers on, etc, etc???

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Sorry bro, I have no idea. And after my dealer throwing parts at it for years, I sold it and bought a brand new one.

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1 hour ago, dandallon said:

2. What does FMI 5 mean for the 65561 and 65563? 

Current Below Normal

1 hour ago, dandallon said:

65565 FMI 0

SPN 65565 FMI 0: Fuel Trim Bank 1 Data Valid But Above Normal

There is a full diagnostic workup for these codes but my guess is an ECM failure.

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dandallon
11 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

Current Below Normal

SPN 65565 FMI 0: Fuel Trim Bank 1 Data Valid But Above Normal

There is a full diagnostic workup for these codes but my guess is an ECM failure.

I already have the definitions from the manual. I need help interpreting what "fuel trim bank 1 data above normal" and "current below normal" for the O2 sensors actually means in layman terms... I.e. does it mean the o2 sensors are seeing too rich/lean a mixture, does it mean they're too hot/cold, what does "fuel trim" even mean and what would make the data above normal, etc?

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34 minutes ago, dandallon said:

what does "fuel trim" even mean

Fuel Trim is the adjustment the engine computer (PCM) makes to the fuel mixture to maintain a balanced air/fuel ratio.

Serioulsy- the service manual explains all this.  There is a plethora of reasons for fuel trim issues.

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10 hours ago, dandallon said:

I already have the definitions from the manual.

@Eagleboy99 wasn't telling you to read the definitions, he was telling you to read the diagnostic section of the Service Manual.  And he is serious; the service manual explains all of this and more.

Use your favorite search engine and download the appropriate MEFI Service Manual for your ECM.  MEFI 5, I'm guessing?

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On 5/24/2021 at 8:26 PM, dandallon said:

I already have the definitions from the manual. I need help interpreting what "fuel trim bank 1 data above normal" and "current below normal" for the O2 sensors actually means in layman terms... I.e. does it mean the o2 sensors are seeing too rich/lean a mixture, does it mean they're too hot/cold, what does "fuel trim" even mean and what would make the data above normal, etc?

For some reason I am going to chime in with a little more detail, but I think Eagleboy99 and Justgary pretty much nailed it.

Bank 1 is the cylinder 1,3,5,7 side on a GM engine and in a v-drive application is on the starboard side of the boat.

Fuel trim is the term used to describe when the ECM reduces or increases the pulse width of the fuel injector "on" timing in milliseconds (ms) to reach a stoichiometric mixture of fuel and air as read by the O2 sensor in the exhaust stream.  A SPN 65565 FMI 0 indicates the O2 sensors on the starboard exhaust are reading a lean condition and the ECM has compensated by increasing the time the injectors can open to the maximum of what it is programmed to for the conditions.  This can be seen using diacom to read the O2-BLM cell value.  Anything above 1.0 is caused by a lean mixture and below 1.0 is from a rich mixture.  A value above 1.24 will cause the alarm.  The most common cause is a vacuum leak, exhaust leak, or low fuel pressure, but other things can cause it.

You can find the Indmar MEFI 6 manual here, or just google it.

https://www.scribd.com/document/356834115/indmar-engine-service-manual-pdf

Indmar has special Denso O2 sensors available when the standard O2 sensors are causing problems that can not be resolved using the recommended diagnosis.

It is also important to use Diacom to clear the O2-BLM "Block learn values" after any fuel system or ignition repair to reset the base value.

The manual also has a diagnostic and testing guide.  Which of the tests have you done and which are you having problems with?

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8 hours ago, csleaver said:

Indmar MEFI 6

Sorry, it must be MEFI 6.  I'm never sure what years use which version of ECM, but you definitely know.  As usual, you have given a very concise explanation of the problem and possible causes.

@dandallon - A block learn multiplier of 1.24 means that the injectors are sending 24% more fuel per pulse than the factory calibration prescribes.  That is a lot of extra fuel, so finding and fixing the problem is worth your effort.  You said that the fuel pressure isn't correct, so hopefully your new regulator will solve this issue for you.  If not, come back to this thread and tell us what you have done so far and what is still happening.

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dandallon

I just re-read my response to Eagleboy99... I apologize if it came across as rude. I really am grateful for everyone's advice and expertise.  I thought I was pretty handy with engines until I realized that I don't have any experience with EFI... I guess all my prior experience has been with carbureted engines. I'm happy to do the testing/repairs myself as I have lost faith in my local dealer... just a steep learning curve.

A few follow-up questions:

On 5/26/2021 at 11:04 PM, csleaver said:

Indmar has special Denso O2 sensors available when the standard O2 sensors are causing problems that can not be resolved using the recommended diagnosis.

1. Do you happen to have a link or a part number for these special O2 sensors? would o2 sensor spacers be of any utility?

2. Does the fact that all of my 02 errors are from the Pre-cat sensor 1 of both bank A and B suggest anything to you guys?  

2. As to what is normal for fuel pressure... some people on these forums (and the manual) say it should hold near 60 for several minutes after keyup and after killing the engine but others (including Larry from Indmar) say it's normal to drop almost instantly to 30-40 then slowly drop from there. When connected to the fuel rail, mine pops up to 60 with keyup and stays there when idling, but drops almost instantly to 30-40 then drops down to zero within a few minutes after killing the engine or after keyup without starting.  When I connect the gauge directly to the output from the fuel pump, it drops quickly to 30-40 after keyup and killing the engine, but stays at 30-40 for quite a while. The new regulator/filter came today so I'll put it in tomorrow, but I worry that the pressure leak is downstream from the rail... could it be anything besides the injectors and how do I test them? I read about a place that does mail-in injector testing/repair, but is there a way to figure out which injector(s) are at fault?

 

On 5/24/2021 at 9:06 PM, Eagleboy99 said:

SPN 65565 FMI 0: Fuel Trim Bank 1 Data Valid But Above Normal

There is a full diagnostic workup for these codes but my guess is an ECM failure

4. Is there a way to specifically test the ECM for failure, or is it a "rule out all other problems first then replace the ECM if nothing else fixes it" sort of thing? Also, I saw a place called OBD2allinone.com that says they can "repair" the ECM. Is that worth while or do you just buy new?

5.  I recently figured out that my '12 never had the CAT cooling replumb done that was recommended by Indmar years ago (another miss by my dealer) that is supposed to help prevent CAT overheating so I just did that last week. The CATs don't have any blistered paint or scorching like I've read about so hopefully they're okay. Could that have had any effect on the pre-cat sensor errors?

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7 hours ago, dandallon said:

2. Does the fact that all of my 02 errors are from the Pre-cat sensor 1 of both bank A and B suggest anything to you guys?  

 

On 5/27/2021 at 12:04 AM, csleaver said:

The most common cause is a vacuum leak, exhaust leak, or low fuel pressure

 

Once again, this is all in the manual.  I tried the scribd link that @csleaver posted and couldn't read much of it because I don't have a subscription.  I didn't try to download it, but if you can do that, read it.  If you can't get the Indmar one, use the one from Marine Power.  You should find very little difference between the two.  In this manual you want to read starting at page 9-122:

http://marinepowerusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/MEFI-6-Service-Manual.pdf

The chance is high that you have something wrong other than your ECM.  I would not point my finger at it until you have done all of the tests in the book for your SPN list.

As for your other questions, you pretty much want to diagnose the low-hanging fruit first, and then tackle the hard stuff if the problem still exists.  Here's what I would do if I had your symptoms:

1.  Clean the throttle body.  You can do this on the boat with a can of spray.  Just be sure to get it in all of the little passages on the sides and down the throat.  You can open the throttle to get down inside and along the butterfly edges.

2.  Do a complete tune up of plugs, cap, rotor, and plug wires as specified for your model.  Yes, spark plug wires go bad with age and use.

3.  Test the fuel pressure.  You have a 4 Bar system; 4 Bar X 14.7 PSI/Bar = 58.8 PSI.  Test it at key on/engine off, idle, and wide open throttle.  If all three are around 60 PSI, move on.

4.  Check for intake leaks.  Get a can of ether (starting fluid) and spray around the base of the throttle body and intake manifold with the engine idling.  Do the spraying carefully and methodically to make sure you get everywhere.  If you get *any* change in RPM while you spray, you probably have an intake leak in that area.  Diagnose it and fix it before you move on.

5.  Test the fuel injectors using page 9-211.  Mainly I would test the coil resistance and move on if all of them are OK.  A leaking injector would probably give you a low block learn number, not a high one.  Remember, your problem is that you have too much air or not enough fuel.

6.  Very carefully check the engine harness for corrosion or signs of water in the connectors.  Ideally you would want to inspect the whole harness, but for brevity you would start at the O2 sensors and move to the ECM connectors and then get the injectors, temperature, manifold pressure, etc. that are involved in this circuit.

 

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dandallon
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, justgary said:

 

 

Once again, this is all in the manual.  I tried the scribd link that @csleaver posted and couldn't read much of it because I don't have a subscription.  I didn't try to download it, but if you can do that, read it.  If you can't get the Indmar one, use the one from Marine Power.  You should find very little difference between the two.  In this manual you want to read starting at page 9-122:

http://marinepowerusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/MEFI-6-Service-Manual.pdf

The chance is high that you have something wrong other than your ECM.  I would not point my finger at it until you have done all of the tests in the book for your SPN list.

As for your other questions, you pretty much want to diagnose the low-hanging fruit first, and then tackle the hard stuff if the problem still exists.  Here's what I would do if I had your symptoms:

1.  Clean the throttle body.  You can do this on the boat with a can of spray.  Just be sure to get it in all of the little passages on the sides and down the throat.  You can open the throttle to get down inside and along the butterfly edges.

2.  Do a complete tune up of plugs, cap, rotor, and plug wires as specified for your model.  Yes, spark plug wires go bad with age and use.

3.  Test the fuel pressure.  You have a 4 Bar system; 4 Bar X 14.7 PSI/Bar = 58.8 PSI.  Test it at key on/engine off, idle, and wide open throttle.  If all three are around 60 PSI, move on.

4.  Check for intake leaks.  Get a can of ether (starting fluid) and spray around the base of the throttle body and intake manifold with the engine idling.  Do the spraying carefully and methodically to make sure you get everywhere.  If you get *any* change in RPM while you spray, you probably have an intake leak in that area.  Diagnose it and fix it before you move on.

5.  Test the fuel injectors using page 9-211.  Mainly I would test the coil resistance and move on if all of them are OK.  A leaking injector would probably give you a low block learn number, not a high one.  Remember, your problem is that you have too much air or not enough fuel.

6.  Very carefully check the engine harness for corrosion or signs of water in the connectors.  Ideally you would want to inspect the whole harness, but for brevity you would start at the O2 sensors and move to the ECM connectors and then get the injectors, temperature, manifold pressure, etc. that are involved in this circuit.

 

@justgaryTHIS is perfect! Thanks! I changed the regulator/filter today and the fuel pressure now stays up over 50 for several minutes after keyup/shutdown, so that's a good step forward. Changed the plugs/wires/cap/rotor last year. I've had a downloaded copy of the manual that I've been trying to make heads/tails of for a few months, but everyone's suggestions have helped me make more sense of it. I will work on all of you other suggestions ASAP. Thanks again to everyone!

Edited by dandallon
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Posted (edited)

I have 3 brand new monsoon 350 o2 sensors if you wanna buy them. I paid like 150 a piece from my dealer. If you want them shoot me a PM. 

Edited by dwc032
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jnlasvegas

So last year I had a lot of misfire codes and after talking to indmar, they sent a software update that expanded the parameters so the alarms didn't trip.

 

1 year later I just replaced my ecm and not I'm getting new warnings like yours.  Waiting to hear back from Larry at Indmar if they didn't load the new ecm with the correct software. You'll have to send them your engine serial number first to see.

 

If the software isn't the problem with mine then I may need to replace the fuel pump.  I'm getting tired of this malibu!!!

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  • 3 weeks later...

Get Diacom, you'll be way happier once you do!!!

These Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC) are sensitive and easily tripped by low batteries, old fuel, and dirty filters. Regular preventive maintenance (PM), fully charged batteries on a trickle charger, and clean new fuel at 89 or higher octane helps a lot. Most dealers will take your boat and let it sit on their lot and not really share where you are in the rotation, "we're getting to it as soon as we can sir". Basically don't complain, LOL. 

I finally said "forget this" and got a Diacom package and put the software on a cheap laptop dedicated for the boat. Wish I did that DAY 1. For less than $1000 (an average visit to your dealership), including both the Diacom package and laptop I can now take care of my own issues. When need be, I can walk into any service shop with confidence and knowledge of what needs to be done.

I hate being left in the dark and at the mercy of service personnel. Besides, service folk tend to take you a bit more seriously when you walk in the shop with a run report from Diacom. Most folks at the counter will call up a technician to discuss the report with you, if not hint at it. Tact includes timing, so don't walk in the shop on a Saturday before Memorial Day insisting on A+ service.

 

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