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M5/M6 Impeller Failures

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Kirk8907

My dealer said today that my new 2021 23 MXZ with M6 will be here this thursday (9/3/20).  He also says that it is coming with a new water pump made out of brass instead of aluminum. He also says that the extra impeller I already ordered won't fit the new pump and that he is unable, so far, to allocate an extra impeller that will fit the new pump due to supply chain problems. 

Anyone hearing the same info on a new pump and impeller?

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ahopkinsVTX
20 minutes ago, Kirk8907 said:

My dealer said today that my new 2021 23 MXZ with M6 will be here this thursday (9/3/20).  He also says that it is coming with a new water pump made out of brass instead of aluminum. He also says that the extra impeller I already ordered won't fit the new pump and that he is unable, so far, to allocate an extra impeller that will fit the new pump due to supply chain problems. 

Anyone hearing the same info on a new pump and impeller?

I heard the fix was implemented for new boats but didn’t know what it was. And @IXFE mentioned that the supply does has issues and is the only reason it has not been fully implemented yet. 

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tower210

I sell commercial / industrial equipment.  Supply chain issues during Covid are becoming common and painful......  Direct labor issues....UPS freight issues....upstream issues (especially if it was designed for JIT manufacturing) 

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bcoppess23

I am glad to hear they are fixing this and hope my boat will arrive with the new parts. 

In the older boats, the raw water intake was in front of the propeller and had to come into the boat and then go behind the motor.  In the new boats, it is doing the same thing but opposite direction.  It comes into the boat behind the prop and then forward and potentially higher up or higher for gravity.   As these boats are spinning the propeller, could they be sucking in air/bubbles which could be ruining the impellers?  It likely has water in the impeller but may not be enough to keep it cool??

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ahopkinsVTX
9 hours ago, bcoppess23 said:

I am glad to hear they are fixing this and hope my boat will arrive with the new parts. 

In the older boats, the raw water intake was in front of the propeller and had to come into the boat and then go behind the motor.  In the new boats, it is doing the same thing but opposite direction.  It comes into the boat behind the prop and then forward and potentially higher up or higher for gravity.   As these boats are spinning the propeller, could they be sucking in air/bubbles which could be ruining the impellers?  It likely has water in the impeller but may not be enough to keep it cool??

I think it depends on the model. My 2020 20VTX raw water intake is in near where the vdrive is. 

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bcoppess23
1 hour ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

I think it depends on the model. My 2020 20VTX raw water intake is in near where the vdrive is. 

And you haven't had issues, correct?  Don't get me wrong, I think a faulty impeller could be part to blame, but location, if not consistent, could be a factor.  At least, we should see this showing why some models are non-issues and others may be more susceptible to it.

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2008vlx
On 8/17/2020 at 5:57 PM, COOP said:

We've been looking at the run dry impellers. I think given the location of the pump these will be the best option currently. I think the Globe number is 626. But Ive not had luck finding any in stock stateside. 

Long term Im not sure what the solution is, check valve, loop in the hose to keep water at the pump? I am curious to see what Malibus solution will be. 

close water intake valve prior to trailer the boat out of water (don't forget to reopen when boat is put back in water)

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ahopkinsVTX
18 minutes ago, bcoppess23 said:

And you haven't had issues, correct?  Don't get me wrong, I think a faulty impeller could be part to blame, but location, if not consistent, could be a factor.  At least, we should see this showing why some models are non-issues and others may be more susceptible to it.

I haven’t but when I changed mine at 50 hours it had two canes partially broke off. I also launch every time I use the boat so within the first minute of the engine running I have used some extra throttle to back off the trailer. I also check my strainer weekly. Not because of this issue but because I always have. We boat on a fairly shallow very weedy lake. Intake position could play a factor but to me it sure sounds like there were a ton of manufactured impellers that are bad and also starting to sound like there could be a pump issue too. Which would fall right in line of why the very early engines seem fine, why some people have no issues (inconsistency in manufacturing from the supply) and why the statements have been made that there is a fix but the supply chain has them held up. 

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JWBeav

I traveled to San Diego last weekend to purchase a 2020 23 LSV with the M6.  The owner of the boat works for the local boat shop and has a ton of knowledge of the problem.  He stated since the impeller was up higher from previous models during initial start there is no water in the casing and therefore it gets very hot.  Over time the rubber tends to break down as can be seen in many of the removed impellers that have are damaged.  He stated Malibu was working on a fix, potentially a priming pump that will inject water prior to starting the engine, but for now to lube Vaseline or Glycerin lubricant on the fins.  Hope this helps...  

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justgary
1 hour ago, 23LSVOwner said:

The location of the pump is not the problem. Everyone focuses on that as the issue because it is in a location they have not seen.

 

If it was the problem there would not be thousands of these engines running with no impeller issues at all.

Priming is definitely a potential issue, and suction height is definitely a factor in priming.  The difference may be that some of the units may have small air leaks that prevent priming at low RPM.  It wouldn't take much.

If I owned one of these, you can bet that I would install a check valve on the raw water intake to keep the pump primed.  I have one on my boat because I use a garden hose flush every time I go out.  It is so easy for me to use that I always warm the engine on the hose before I go out (I hate getting to the ramp and finding out that the motor won't start for whatever reason).  This has the effect of ensuring that the pump is primed before I ever crank the engine since the hose forces water into the pump for me.

At some point, it is better to just take matters into your own hands and deal with the problem than to wait for a manufacturer to provide a solution for the least common denominator.

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dwc032

I pulled the impeller yesterday.  I have 79 hours on my 2020 23 MXZ.  Factory impeller was changed at 61 hours.  It was toast.  I pulled the second impeller yesterday which had 19 hours on it and was missing two of the rubber pump pieces.  I installed a new one.  So in 79 hours, I have replaced the impeller three times.  My dealer does not have a fix for me, but have been very good to deal with.  Crappy thing is, is I have not been able to find a spare impeller.    

Edited by dwc032

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Sparky450
13 minutes ago, dwc032 said:

I pulled the impeller yesterday.  I have 79 hours on my 2020 23 MXZ.  Factory impeller was changed at 61 hours.  It was toast.  I pulled the second impeller yesterday which had 19 hours on it and was missing two of the rubber pump pieces.  I installed a new one.  So in 79 hours, I have replaced the impeller three times.  My dealer does not have a fix for me, but have been very good to deal with.  Crappy thing is, is I have not been able to find a spare impeller.    

I have to say that is crazy. I am in the other camp that went 200 hrs ast year on an impeller. In fact I went almost 235 hours because the dealer didn’t have one at the  winter service. So I went 190 hrs and another 35 hr oil change before needing an impeller. And that was because my sea strained plugged up i M nota mechanic it has to be faulty manufacturing of a part somewhere. 

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ahopkinsVTX
23 minutes ago, dwc032 said:

I pulled the impeller yesterday.  I have 79 hours on my 2020 23 MXZ.  Factory impeller was changed at 61 hours.  It was toast.  I pulled the second impeller yesterday which had 19 hours on it and was missing two of the rubber pump pieces.  I installed a new one.  So in 79 hours, I have replaced the impeller three times.  My dealer does not have a fix for me, but have been very good to deal with.  Crappy thing is, is I have not been able to find a spare impeller.    

You can’t order one from Bakes? The dealer stock still seems to be suspect. 
 

https://www.bakesonline.com/malibu-m5-and-m6-engine-water-pump-impeller-kit.html

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dwc032
16 minutes ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

You can’t order one from Bakes? The dealer stock still seems to be suspect. 
 

https://www.bakesonline.com/malibu-m5-and-m6-engine-water-pump-impeller-kit.html

I haven't tried.  I've just been using whatever the dealer gives me.  I guess I should look at a better one from Bakes.  Thanks for the link!

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agarabaghi
23 minutes ago, dwc032 said:

I haven't tried.  I've just been using whatever the dealer gives me.  I guess I should look at a better one from Bakes.  Thanks for the link!

Also -

posted this in the maintenance forum but might be more visible here:

I think this list will be super helpful for those who are looking to buy replacements:

Here are all the options I have found with my experience:

Sherwood 15000k - Only failure I have had was with a OEM impeller replaced at dealer (bad stock?)

https://www.bakesonline.com/impeller-service-kit-sherwood-15000k-neoprene-impeller.html

Bakes marine V2 version - No experience

https://www.bakesonline.com/malibu-m5-and-m6-engine-water-pump-impeller-kit.html

Globe 626 - Advertised as run dry, used a different kind of rubber than other 2

https://marinepartssource.com/impeller-blue-keyway-12-blade-globe-626

JMP Wax Infused 7352-01k - One of the few brands that does not use off the shelf rubber mix, they make their own composite with WAX infusion. Will be running this next.

https://bigblueoceanmarine.com/7352-01k-jmp-marine-flexible-impeller-kit-replaces-jabsco-18327-0001-sherwood-15000-15000k-cummins-3916720-mercruiser-47-853126/

StayCoolPump 15000k replacement - Regular replacement impeller, i have this currently in my m5 with 40hours no issues.

https://www.staycoolpumps.com/store/p54/Impeller_Kit_Replaces_Sherwood_15000K_Jabsco_18327-0001-P.html

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agarabaghi

Buddy just got his new water pump installed by his dealer, 

Johnson all brass pump with a different impeller (obviously).... havent seen it yet so dont know the differences...

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ahopkinsVTX
52 minutes ago, agarabaghi said:

Buddy just got his new water pump installed by his dealer, 

Johnson all brass pump with a different impeller (obviously).... havent seen it yet so dont know the differences...

Will be very curious to see what this is!

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agarabaghi
2 hours ago, ahopkinsVTX said:

Will be very curious to see what this is!

Same I asked for pictures. My dealer has nothing yet but what they said are “improved” sherwoods

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gregtay

Anyone with the flush kit have any impeller issues? I ask because I noticed that the junction for the flush kit on my M6 is always full of water, never drains. It is clear so you can see in and I think there is a spring loaded check valve in it. I have had zero impeller issues and I am sort of wondering is the flush kit actually prevents the issue since it seems to keep the water from draining from the water pump. 

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Kirk8907
On 8/28/2020 at 4:15 PM, Kirk8907 said:

My dealer said today that my new 2021 23 MXZ with M6 will be here this thursday (9/3/20).  He also says that it is coming with a new water pump made out of brass instead of aluminum. He also says that the extra impeller I already ordered won't fit the new pump and that he is unable, so far, to allocate an extra impeller that will fit the new pump due to supply chain problems. 

Anyone hearing the same info on a new pump and impeller?

UPDATE:  Got my new boat in last week and dealer says it has the "new pump". Had it in for its first service and the service department says the pump is an Indmar Johnson F6B-9 which takes a Johnson 09-812B impeller.  Hope this helps anyone with similar issues.  So far I've got 20 hrs from new and no failure yet.

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agarabaghi
21 minutes ago, Kirk8907 said:

UPDATE:  Got my new boat in last week and dealer says it has the "new pump". Had it in for its first service and the service department says the pump is an Indmar Johnson F6B-9 which takes a Johnson 09-812B impeller.  Hope this helps anyone with similar issues.  So far I've got 20 hrs from new and no failure yet.

Take some pics!

 

This would be the replacement impeller for it from staycoolpumps - https://www.amazon.com/StayCoolPumps-Impeller-Replaces-09-812B-1-13554-0001-P/dp/B013HOWKTE

Edited by agarabaghi

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UWSkier

I wonder how they're driving it.  The Johnson F6b-9 is the same pump Malibu and Indmar have been using for over 20 years, but it's usually mounted on a flange that bolts up to the crankshaft.

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agarabaghi
1 minute ago, UWSkier said:

I wonder how they're driving it.  The Johnson F6b-9 is the same pump Malibu and Indmar have been using for over 20 years, but it's usually mounted on a flange that bolts up to the crankshaft.

yea ... weird... i could see it bolt to the pulley ... but i dont see how it would bolt to the engine as the sherwood had 2x bolts there.... 

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NWBU
On 9/7/2020 at 12:23 PM, gregtay said:

Anyone with the flush kit have any impeller issues? I ask because I noticed that the junction for the flush kit on my M6 is always full of water, never drains. It is clear so you can see in and I think there is a spring loaded check valve in it. I have had zero impeller issues and I am sort of wondering is the flush kit actually prevents the issue since it seems to keep the water from draining from the water pump. 

The 2020 I built didn’t have a flush kit and it’s run 105 hours with no impeller issues at all. So weird how some boats have repeat impeller issues and others with similar setups go all season.

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