help! alternator whine (and other electrical buzzing when boat is off) is making me crazy!

[Slurpee]

22 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

The draped cable was an amazon basics.  

My main RCAs in the boat are Kicker KI46 (two sets, 8 rcas total. / two unused (were running to black box HU)).  These are new in the last two weeks.

I previously was running the wetsounds RCAs (prior to two weeks ago).

Those Kicker. Yeah. I cut apart some of Ronnie’s once chasing the same problem. Or ones that looked like that exactly. They’re not shielded as I recall. Amazon Basics is sketchy. The wet sounds stuff I’d expect to be okay. I only use stuff like Stinger 6000 series now because there is a ground shield and a neutral wire to help impedance match the cable to keep noise out. Those are shorted to the shield on one end only. You can swap them around to whichever device (source or sink) has the quietest ground. Though generally that’s the source. If you feel like spending $20 get one and run my test again. I had those kicker cables early on. I had hum on my HLCDs. Definitely some of it was proximity to power cables. Some was cables. 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Slurpee

[Slurpee]

3 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

out of desperation, would it be worth switching the KS300.2 to my sub and the HD750/1 to the towers?  My sub is 3ohm impedance so I'd give something up on the bass front, but right now I've been mostly leaving the stereo off because it's driving me crazy.

You can give it a try. Lots of folks have run towers off the HD750/1. The tower amp should run your sub okay.  It’d also give you an idea if that arc amp is the problem.  

Just take pics of your amp settings before mucking with things. 

[shawndoggy]

11 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

Those. Yeah. I cut apart some of Ronnie’s once chasing the same problem. They’re not shielded as I recall. I only use stuff like Stinger 6000 series now because there is a ground shield and a neutral wire to help impedance match the cable to keep noise out. Those are shorted to the shield on one end only. You can swap them around to whichever device (source or sink) has the quietest ground. Though generally that’s the source. If you feel like spending $20 get one and run my test again. I had those kicker cables early on. I had hum on my HLCDs. Definitely some of it was proximity to power cables. Some was cables. 

Are you saying both the kickers and wet sounds were bad or just the kickers?

[Slurpee]

1 minute ago, shawndoggy said:

Are you saying both the kickers and wet sounds were bad or just the kickers?

Just the kickers. I just edited my post. I never ever ever buy Amazon Basics. Multiple sources. No QC worth mentioning. I mean it’s Amazon. 

[shawndoggy]

I ordered a set of the stinger 6000s.  Frankly I'm not hopeful, but it's only $20 and if it helps to eliminate one potential issue, I'm all for it!  They'll be here tomorrow.

I had an epiphany last night while looking through my wiring that the ground jumper between my batteries might be "light" because it's still the factory 2awg wire.  I pulled that and installed a new 0 gauge jumper (new wire, new ring terminals, good crimps, new heat shrink).  Sadly, no improvement. But the wire looks nicer!

[cowwboy]

It also may not be the quality of your RCA vs the type. 

This video kind of explains it. 

 

[hawaiianstyln]

THIS!  ^^^

[justgary]

2 hours ago, cowwboy said:

It also may not be the quality of your RCA vs the type. 

This video kind of explains it. 

 

A very good explanation, except he acts like he just invented twisted pair cable. 

If you do have a differential system, a shielded twisted pair cable is better than just a twisted pair cable.  The idea is that the shield will still block most of the noise, leaving the twisted pair inside relatively noise free.  In this case, the shield will be a third connection to chassis ground, and not connected to either signal cable.  An RCA connector is a poor choice for this type of system, in my opinion.

Also, as @Slurpee mentioned, a shielded cable may perform better when the shield is connected at one end only so you don't create a ground loop.  In the case of a single-ended (coaxial) cable, you probably want both ends of the shield connected since the equipment expects the shield to carry the return current.  Do not assume that the ring (outside connection) of an RCA jack is grounded to the chassis.  Grounding one end or the other to the chassis may help or hurt a noise situation.  In a differential system, neither signal line should be grounded.

If you happen to have a little of both types of system, you will need very specific help with cabling to make sure you get it right.

[justgary]

3 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

I ordered a set of the stinger 6000s.  Frankly I'm not hopeful, but it's only $20 and if it helps to eliminate one potential issue, I'm all for it!  They'll be here tomorrow.

I had an epiphany last night while looking through my wiring that the ground jumper between my batteries might be "light" because it's still the factory 2awg wire.  I pulled that and installed a new 0 gauge jumper (new wire, new ring terminals, good crimps, new heat shrink).  Sadly, no improvement. But the wire looks nicer!

Those Stinger 6000 cables are twisted pair also.  I'm sorry I'm not familiar with the EQ and amps that you have, but it might be worth your time to figure out if you have any differential inputs or outputs in your system and deal with them specifically.  Otherwise, I would use coaxial cable only.

[Slurpee]

Howdy @shawndoggy,

I was thinking of this again this morning.  I think you said you can do this and all your noise goes away right?  You can cut out the house system and the connection to the house battery completely and your stereo is quiet?  You have we hope a perfectly isolated island of audio electronics separate from the boat.  If the noise is still there then take the blue seas relay out as well.  Don't let the relay stay powered is what I mean.  I assume you have a relay from your posts about it back in 2016.

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Slurpee

[shawndoggy]

59 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

Howdy @shawndoggy,

I was thinking of this again this morning.  I think you said you can do this and all your noise goes away right?  You can cut out the house system and the connection to the house battery completely and your stereo is quiet?  You have we hope a perfectly isolated island of audio electronics separate from the boat.  If the noise is still there then take the blue seas relay out as well.  Don't let the relay stay powered is what I mean.  I assume you have a relay from your posts about it back in 2016.

 

I didn't get a chance to test this again last night (ran out of daylight) but will confirm tonight.

[granddaddy55]

3 hours ago, Slurpee said:

Howdy @shawndoggy,

I was thinking of this again this morning.  I think you said you can do this and all your noise goes away right?  You can cut out the house system and the connection to the house battery completely and your stereo is quiet?  You have we hope a perfectly isolated island of audio electronics separate from the boat.  If the noise is still there then take the blue seas relay out as well.  Don't let the relay stay powered is what I mean.  I assume you have a relay from your posts about it back in 2016.

 

yep my positive snd negative go straight to amp board and i get very little if any noise even with the rgb, big problem though when disconnecting power, i needed a separate switch not tied to other battery just for maintenance disconnects,  amp pops into protection mode with a loud  thump when i try to disconnect or connect power, but luckily comes right back on 

this was the point i was making all along, he's still tied into the rest of boat! he is not complete isolated power snd ground to system

but i can also leave my system on at switch in error but the acc switch LED sort of prevents that

i think what little tiny noise almost not perceptible  i do have is from the linkage to the boat battery,  glad i am though -in a two cranking amp battery set up i am in it only provides an hour or two when switched to all setting

i also use ground loop isolators coming out of EQ from best buy snd i didnt even hook up the ground

Edited July 21, 2021 by granddaddy55

[Slurpee]

4 minutes ago, granddaddy55 said:

yep my positive snd negative go straight to amp board and i get very little if any noise even with the rgb, big problem though when disconnecting power, i needed a separate switch not tied to other battery just for maintenance disconnects,  amp pops into protection mode with a loud  thump when i try to disconnect or connect power, but luckily comes right back on 

this was the point i was making all along, he's still tied into the rest of boat! he is not complete isolated power snd ground to system

but i can also leave my system on at switch in error but the acc switch LED sort of prevents that

i think what little tiny noise almost not perceptible  i do have is from the linkage to the boat battery,  glad i am though -in a two cranking amp battery set up i am in it only provides an hour or two when switched to all setting

Yeah, simpler the better.  My 2016 and 2019 are both built the same way.  Like this thread I ripped out the factory stereo (blah! - well it's there in the 2019 but the DSP bypasses it for my Fusion HU).  I have the two identical AGM batteries to the Perko switch 1 & 2.  I run from there to big box connectors (for that easy disconnect you're missing) then to the amp board where everything is wired to two distro blocks or a barrier strip for the accessory power and remote turn on relay.  I believe somewhere in there before the disconnect I have a circuit breaker just because.  Never any noise.  But dear God I've chased noise on new factory boats so much I'm just not doing it anymore. 

 

[granddaddy55]

@Slurpee

both mu Sony HU and my BT rocker switch sources both have remote out and they with the amps and EQ are one big daisy chain with no relay necessary.  power up either source after switching on Acc switch and everything lights up.  never understood the need for that relay that everyone talks about , everybody thinks thats what is needed for all units to power up but its not needed in my super limited stereo rookie experience

why even have the relay (i.e. KISS)?  

big box connectors?  not shown in pics is it?

Edited July 21, 2021 by granddaddy55

[shawndoggy]

3 hours ago, Slurpee said:

Howdy @shawndoggy,

I was thinking of this again this morning.  I think you said you can do this and all your noise goes away right?  You can cut out the house system and the connection to the house battery completely and your stereo is quiet?  You have we hope a perfectly isolated island of audio electronics separate from the boat. 

@Slurpee to confirm what you are saying... disconnect both power and ground from the rest of the boat, so that I have a both (+) and (-) distro blocks connected directly to a battery, which itself is not connected to the charging system on either the (+) or (-) side.  Confirm that stereo is noise free (fingers crossed) then start working in charging system components till a noisy step is found.  Do I have that right?

[Slurpee]

12 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

@Slurpee to confirm what you are saying... disconnect both power and ground from the rest of the boat, so that I have a both (+) and (-) distro blocks connected directly to a battery, which itself is not connected to the charging system on either the (+) or (-) side.  Confirm that stereo is noise free (fingers crossed) then start working in charging system components till a noisy step is found.  Do I have that right?

Yup.  Differential Diagnosis.  Start cutting out system components till it's noise free.  I think you have enough dart holes in the drywall at this point to say there isn't an obvious answer.

You need to make sure that your actual audio install is clean before you start contaminating it with the rest of the boat electronics.  And I consider that isolator to be sus at this point as well.  Just disconnecting the power to it and the lugs to it will let you control things simply from the switch I believe.  You can then make a connection from the battery to the audio, flip a switch on the dash, and run your whole audio setup. 

If you still have noise you rip the remote turn on's out of the amps besides the tower amp.  And you make one single connection to the EQ from the tower.

You see where I'm going.  Try to find the simplest test setup that gives you no noise.  It's quite possible there's more than one thing that's the culprit.

[shawndoggy]

3 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

Yup.  Differential Diagnosis.  Start cutting out system components till it's noise free.  I think you have enough dart holes in the drywall at this point to say there isn't an obvious answer.

You need to make sure that your actual audio install is clean before you start contaminating it with the rest of the boat electronics.  And I consider that isolator to be sus at this point as well.  Just disconnecting the power to it and the lugs to it will let you control things simply from the switch I believe.  You can then make a connection from the battery to the audio, flip a switch on the dash, and run your whole audio setup. 

If you still have noise you rip the remote turn on's out of the amps besides the tower amp.  And you make one single connection to the EQ from the tower.

You see where I'm going.  Try to find the simplest test setup that gives you no noise.  It's quite possible there's more than one thing that's the culprit.

LOL I've got mad dart holes. Thanks for keeping me on task with a systematic approach!

[tbullard]

By chance have you tried adjusting the gains on your amps or rest of your components if available? I know I have experienced a buzzing type noise that went away after turning down gains to the correct level. I have a cheap Oscilloscope from amazon that I use to set mine now.

[shawndoggy]

10 minutes ago, tbullard said:

By chance have you tried adjusting the gains on your amps or rest of your components if available? I know I have experienced a buzzing type noise that went away after turning down gains to the correct level. I have a cheap Oscilloscope from amazon that I use to set mine now.

Yes.  Even significantly undergained the noise goes away.  While the noise is *influenced* by the gain (i.e. worse if gain is up) but so far I don't believe the underlying noise itself is a result of being overgained.

[Slurpee]

40 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Yes.  Even significantly undergained the noise goes away.  While the noise is *influenced* by the gain (i.e. worse if gain is up) but so far I don't believe the underlying noise itself is a result of being overgained.

Uhm.... what? You might need to rephrase that. Significantly undergained is zero and yes the noise goes away.  Earlier you said you were just a bit above minimum and had noise.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Slurpee

[shawndoggy]

24 minutes ago, Slurpee said:

Uhm.... what? You might need to rephrase that. Significantly undergained is zero and yes the noise goes away.  Earlier you said you were just a bit above minimum and had noise.

Haha typed that too fast. It *never* goes away even undergained. But it is reduced somewhat. When I ran the “play directly from my phone” test last night the output from the phone was so faint (vs 8v preouts from eq) that I could barely hear any music, but could definitely hear the buzzing. 

Edited July 21, 2021 by shawndoggy

[shawndoggy]

OK so no updates for a few days.

I *think* I have figured it out.***

I've only run the stereo without the boat running, so cannot be sure about the alternator wine, but it's dead quiet with the boat off, whether the blower is running or not.

drum roll....

My tower amp was bad.  I pulled and replaced the tower amp and now everything is quiet.  I've removed the noise filters and the ground loop isolator and everything sounds good, even when I turn on the blower.

as really bad luck would have it, in the course of getting all of this stuff fixed, one of the output channels on my eq also died.  when it rains it pours.  I am wondering whether my bad amp was doing weird things in the electrical system generally and somehow wore out my trusty KEQ5.  I put my clarion eqs755 back in and it sounds good.  we will get out on the water on Sunday and I'm really crossing my fingers that I've got things working again.

I replaced the tower amp with a JL Audio XD 800/8.  I'm running it bridged down to four channels, so each tower speaker is on its own channel.   I'm very excited to see how well it pushes my icons.  

I'll post up after the water test.

*** there's some real weird murphy's law going on here though. I was having similar issues with the factory equipment.  Of course I've since cleaned up ALL of the best practices stuff, and should have a very solid baseline for a rocking system.  fingers crossed.

[Slurpee]

Did you swap amps and discover that like we talked about with the JL running the tower?

 The inputs of an amp aren’t really doing anything that could possibly mess with the source output from your EQ. You can rule that out. It’s just not how it works. But glad the choppy noise is gone!!!

[shawndoggy]

10 hours ago, Slurpee said:

Did you swap amps and discover that like we talked about with the JL running the tower?

 The inputs of an amp aren’t really doing anything that could possibly mess with the source output from your EQ. You can rule that out. It’s just not how it works. But glad the choppy noise is gone!!!

Maybe it's just bad luck with the EQ.  I'm just wondering if the amp was backfeeding some bad mojo into the electrical system through the power and ground feeds, and that may have contributed to the demise of the eq on the same circuit?

Dunno.  

I got the stinger 6000 interconnect and went through the process of isolating the stereo from the rest of the boat electrical system (disconnecting from blue sea relay and disconnecting the ground jumper).  The buzzing was still there (but obvs no change with blower on because the stereo and blower were no longer on the same circuit).  So then I completely disconnected the other two amps from the system and the buzzing was still there.  That narrowed it down to the amp or the EQ, and seeing as I'd been through three different EQs in as many weeks, my gut said amp.  Sure enough it got super clean once I changed it out, only to realize I wasn't getting audio through one side of the rcas.  Switched the rcas between tower and cabin amps and same thing.  That makes it sound like I figured it out quickly haha (it seemed like it took me half an hour to come to the conclusion that the EQ was also bad).  

As soon as I re-installed the clarion EQ, the sound was clearly mucho improved.  Good stereo separation, no noise floor.  (hopefully not jinxing alternator whine on startup).

[Slurpee]

One possibility is application. If it’s not a marine EQ then you can get problems from the environment. I had an Audio Controls EQS in my 16 and within a year several of the potentiometer knobs were messed up enough to be giving false settings and messing up the signal. After 14 months I had two dead channels. This sucker never got wet. Just lived in a high humidity Texas environment. 
 

By the way. If you look close at those stinger cables you’ll see an silkscreen arrow on the jacket indicating direction of travel. The start of the arrow is the end with the shield grounded to the rca. Presumably that is the source and theoretically the quietest point. Follow that as best you can for best practice. 
 

I love the xd800.8. I had that driving all 8 of my cabin speakers on my ‘01. Wonderful amp.