Cracked block or two blown head gaskets?

[MFK27]

15 minutes ago, REHinH20 said:

Yes, I saw, but figured it would be worth your time to get this info from previous owner or even from the Marina.  There has to be a record somewhere.  Sounds like you might be needing it.

Yes for sure. We have the winterization document and maintenance docs from the last few years, but probably need to get even more. 

[Michigan boarder]

So, what are they saying caused the failure?  I know it's the head gaskets that failed, but what caused that to happen, that's not something that just "wears out".  So if that is actually the failure point, some upstream work needs to be done to make sure it does not do it again.  Is there a closed cooling system on the boat?  Is the impeller and water pump OK, and transmission cooler line clear, does the temperature alarm and guage work?  If all of those items check out, then there was likely not an overheating event.  Just some (more) stuff to consider.

[Michigan boarder]

18 hours ago, MFK27 said:

 

“bore scope the engine thru the spark plug holes without removing anything to see if there are cracks in block” 

I believe someone in this forum already  suggested this, so my next question is... do we bring the boat home from the marina (it’s an hour and a half) and perform the test ourselves, ask them to do it, or ask the local mechanic here to do it? I don’t know know what the best next step is :/ appreciate advice.

*Should also note the marina who winterized it said they found 26 error codes including many injector faults and electronic throttle control position.

I would do the bore scope thing for sure.  I'm sure they have an endoscope and know the procedure, it's not uncommon.  So yes I'd ask for them to do it.  It also shows that you are willing to consider options.

You definitely do not want to take the boat back home, because then the "you did this, not that" and finger pointing starts.  Right now you haven't touched it and they are in control of it, which is what I'd want if I were in their shoes trying to diagnose something.  

It seems like the error codes should point to something too.  No help here from me, my boat is and older carburetor version.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Michigan boarder

[Woodski]

@MFK27 - It is hard to convince me that the symptoms of water in every cylinder at a volume of 6 quarts (although I don’t know the run time for it) would be due to just the head gaskets and compression readings pointing to one being a fire ring and the other just one cylinder.  If me, I would do a leak down test while listening with a stethoscope to pinpoint the leaks, check with a boroscope and perhaps do a water pressure test.  
 

A water pressure test will require fabricating a few parts to allow the system to be pressurized but can be done with simple parts.  That could tell you where the leaks are and I would do it with spark plugs removed.  Downside given your issue would be to do it with no oil in the pan and the drain hose open.  I’m kind of thinking and writing at the same time.
 

Given the costs you are quoting, you wi need to calculate your ROI on all the testing given the cost of a replacement long block.

Peruse the Michigan Motorz website for marine engine options.

[MFK27]

2 hours ago, Michigan boarder said:

I would do the bore scope thing for sure.  I'm sure they have an endoscope and know the procedure, it's not uncommon.  So yes I'd ask for them to do it.  It also shows that you are willing to consider options.

You definitely do not want to take the boat back home, because then the "you did this, not that" and finger pointing starts.  Right now you haven't touched it and they are in control of it, which is what I'd want if I were in their shoes trying to diagnose something.  

It seems like the error codes should point to something too.  No help here from me, my boat is and older carburetor version.

Okay, probably need to do a bore scope to rule out a cracked block before proceeding with a costly and time intensive head gasket replacement only to find it’s the block... 

Technically, we have touched it... ran it 7 hours, we had another marina inspect it for a second opinion and we leak tested the exhaust manifolds ourselves before bringing it back to the marina who winterized it. Nothing beyond that though. 

[MFK27]

17 minutes ago, Woodski said:

@MFK27 - It is hard to convince me that the symptoms of water in every cylinder at a volume of 6 quarts (although I don’t know the run time for it) would be due to just the head gaskets and compression readings pointing to one being a fire ring and the other just one cylinder.  If me, I would do a leak down test while listening with a stethoscope to pinpoint the leaks, check with a boroscope and perhaps do a water pressure test.  
 

A water pressure test will require fabricating a few parts to allow the system to be pressurized but can be done with simple parts.  That could tell you where the leaks are and I would do it with spark plugs removed.  Downside given your issue would be to do it with no oil in the pan and the drain hose open.  I’m kind of thinking and writing at the same time.
 

Given the costs you are quoting, you wi need to calculate your ROI on all the testing given the cost of a replacement long block.

Peruse the Michigan Motorz website for marine engine options.

Right, it’s already adding up. I’m trying to check my bias because obviously would be better for us if it was due to winterization and covered under warranty, but I see these as red flags that are diminishing my trust in their process:

1. They didn’t right down all the readings for each cylinder during the compression test (only the middle two on both sides) 

2. Their head gasket quote said, “will inspect crack in block or heads due to head gasket failure” diagnosing the why before identifying the problem....

I will look into the website you mentioned and the additional tests you’re suggesting. Thank you! 

Edited June 3, 2020 by MFK27

[Michigan boarder]

2 hours ago, MFK27 said:

Okay, probably need to do a bore scope to rule out a cracked block before proceeding with a costly and time intensive head gasket replacement only to find it’s the block... 

 

It all depends.  Have an honest discussion with them.  If boroscoping, leakdown testing, pressure testing, etc. starts to add up quickly, say $600, plus the $3,000 for the heads, plus who knows what else....you really could have bought an entire engine, and paid someone you trust to install it for you.  Again, just stuff to consider, you're in a tough spot.

[dwc032]

Any updates on your boat?
 

[MFK27]

On 6/11/2020 at 8:57 PM, dwc032 said:

Any updates on your boat?
 

Thanks for asking! The marina who winterized it is going to open up the engine this week and check for block cracks and blown head gaskets. All the marinas are backed up so this was the first available time our boat could be seen. I should know more mid week and will update on this forum. 

[dwc032]

19 minutes ago, MFK27 said:

Thanks for asking! The marina who winterized it is going to open up the engine this week and check for block cracks and blown head gaskets. All the marinas are backed up so this was the first available time our boat could be seen. I should know more mid week and will update on this forum. 

Ok good, I hope it all goes well and good luck!

[MFK27]

Back with an update (a sad one lol). Looks like we are getting a new engine...

The marina opened up the engine and oh boy it was a mess. I give the marina credit because they sent pictures of everything and were a lot more forthcoming with info this time around. In summary here are all the issues with the engine: 

Pistons 3 and 5 are rusted and corroded. There is a slight crack in the cylinder wall between cylinder 3 and 5. Both head gaskets are blown. Tear in head gaskets between cylinder 3 and 5 as well as 4 and 6. 

again, we didn’t have an overheat event but the previous owner must have even though they said they didn’t! yikes! So basically the only thing I can assume is the previous owner was having issues with the boat, maybe didn’t realize it was engine failure and sold it to us because they didn’t want to deal with it. Pretty crappy! (we even have winterization info and maintenance records that don’t show any issues) :/ 

We test drove it for an hour and didn’t have any issues at all. No leaking, no starter or power issues... in the future I would have a mechanic examine before buying. 

Anyhow, I really appreciate everyone’s responses and ideas on how to go about this over the past few weeks.

bummer but ready to get the boat working at this point. 

[Michigan boarder]

Ugh, that is bad news, sorry to hear.

[Rednucleus]

On the bright side, you have your new boat with a brand new motor to enjoy. Hope you are up and running soon!

[MFK27]

13 hours ago, Michigan boarder said:

Ugh, that is bad news, sorry to hear.

Thank you - appreciate that! Now to get it fixed finally so we can enjoy it  

[MFK27]

4 hours ago, Rednucleus said:

On the bright side, you have your new boat with a brand new motor to enjoy. Hope you are up and running soon!

Yes very true!!