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Cracked block or two blown head gaskets?


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1 minute ago, Michigan boarder said:

Once they have gone this far you might as well have them complete it and reasseble though, since a lot of the labor $$ will have been already spent.

 

They’ve only done a compression test. They haven’t pulled the heads yet... but want to order them now and keep telling me it’s not the block. I think you’re right we probably just have to proceed since our warranty is with them. Once the new head gaskets are on, we will know if it fixed the issue or not pretty quickly once we put it in the water. Or maybe they will go to take the heads off and realize that’s not the issue. I’ll report back on it after they tell me more. 

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20 minutes ago, Eagleboy99 said:

I blew the head gasket on  my boosted turbo sports car years ago - it was due to overheating.  I would think that your first step is determining if it is the block or not.  If the shop that winterized says it is the gaskets, and they replace them and it still a problem, I guess they will have to replace the block.

Yep, I think you’re right. Was hoping we could get the answer faster but it looks like we might not have a running boat until end of the season ha. 

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23 minutes ago, Michigan boarder said:

Once they have gone this far you might as well have them complete it and reasseble though, since a lot of the labor $$ will have been already spent.

 

YUP.  I you are having someone go as far as to remove the intake and heads there is no point in asking them to give you all the bolts and parts back in a baggie so that you can save a couple of bucks and try to figure out where they all go.

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Thanks everyone for your support. Very helpful! Based on your responses, it seems like the marina is potentially diagnosing the problem before they’ve done enough tests/work to confirm or rule out issues. The way the marina communicated it to me is that it’s a done deal - based on the compression test - it has to be two blown head gaskets. Obviously that conflicts with the other marina’s opinion that it is an internal crack in the block. We shall see... I’ll report back when we hear more!

Edited by MFK27
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15 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

YUP.  I you are having someone go as far as to remove the intake and heads there is no point in asking them to give you all the bolts and parts back in a baggie so that you can save a couple of bucks and try to figure out where they all go.

They’ve only done a compression test. Based on my understanding, that does not mean they removed the heads or intake yet? Please let me know if that’s incorrect! They called us to say it was two blown head gaskets based only on the compression test. 

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5 minutes ago, MFK27 said:

They’ve only done a compression test. Based on my understanding, that does not mean they removed the heads or intake yet? Please let me know if that’s incorrect! They called us to say it was two blown head gaskets based only on the compression test. 

A compression test just requires removing the spark plugs.  A bad compression test can be the head gaskets or bad rings in the typical scenario. 

Edited by oldjeep
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2 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

A compression test just requires removing the spark plugs.  A bad compression test can be the head gaskets or bad rings in the typical scenario. 

Okay, thank you! 

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They will need to remove the fuel injection system, intake manifold, and exhaust manifolds, distributor, hoses and thermostat housing.  Then they can remove the heads.  When they remove the heads, if it is a gasket problem, they will likely see where it failed right away.  They will also likely take the heads to be magnafluxed so see if they are cracked, and they will resurface them to make sure they are flat and not warped.  If the gaskets were not the problem, and the heads are not the problem, the only other thing is the block.

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12 minutes ago, Michigan boarder said:

They will need to remove the fuel injection system, intake manifold, and exhaust manifolds, distributor, hoses and thermostat housing.  Then they can remove the heads.  When they remove the heads, if it is a gasket problem, they will likely see where it failed right away.  They will also likely take the heads to be magnafluxed so see if they are cracked, and they will resurface them to make sure they are flat and not warped.  If the gaskets were not the problem, and the heads are not the problem, the only other thing is the block.

Okay, makes sense. Sounds like a lot of labor hours, so once they start that process we are committed to moving forward but that will tell us if it’s the head gaskets or block. Thanks! 

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14 minutes ago, MFK27 said:

Okay, makes sense. Sounds like a lot of labor hours, so once they start that process we are committed to moving forward but that will tell us if it’s the head gaskets or block. Thanks! 

Fingers crossed for you guys!

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Update - we received a quote from the marina for replacing the head gaskets and it came to a total of $3000. Yikes!

This is the other concerning language from their quote: 

“Once dissembled, will inspect possible head and block damage due to head gasket failure. (Combustion between cylinders can damage cylinder and engine block)” 

The main reason we are working with this marina is to have the potential engine replacement covered under winterization warranty if that is truly how it was damaged. Based on the language above, they are already going into it assuming it’s due to blown head gaskets. 

We called our local mechanic and he said two blown head gaskets is very unlikely - not impossible - but that we should do this test first to see if there is a crack in the engine block:

“bore scope the engine thru the spark plug holes without removing anything to see if there are cracks in block” 

I believe someone in this forum already  suggested this, so my next question is... do we bring the boat home from the marina (it’s an hour and a half) and perform the test ourselves, ask them to do it, or ask the local mechanic here to do it? I don’t know know what the best next step is :/ appreciate advice.

*Should also note the marina who winterized it said they found 26 error codes including many injector faults and electronic throttle control position.

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3 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

$3000 will just about buy you a new long block.   That is a crazy amount for replacing head gaskets.

So expensive!! They charged us $300 for the compression test alone! 

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25 minutes ago, MFK27 said:

Update - we received a quote from the marina for replacing the head gaskets and it came to a total of $3000. Yikes!

This is the other concerning language from their quote: 

“Once dissembled, will inspect possible head and block damage due to head gasket failure. (Combustion between cylinders can damage cylinder and engine block)” 

The main reason we are working with this marina is to have the potential engine replacement covered under winterization warranty if that is truly how it was damaged. Based on the language above, they are already going into it assuming it’s due to blown head gaskets. 

We called our local mechanic and he said two blown head gaskets is very unlikely - not impossible - but that we should do this test first to see if there is a crack in the engine block:

“bore scope the engine thru the spark plug holes without removing anything to see if there are cracks in block” 

I believe someone in this forum already  suggested this, so my next question is... do we bring the boat home from the marina (it’s an hour and a half) and perform the test ourselves, ask them to do it, or ask the local mechanic here to do it? I don’t know know what the best next step is :/ appreciate advice.

*Should also note the marina who winterized it said they found 26 error codes including many injector faults and electronic throttle control position.

Unless the marina's warranty says specifically they must do the work (which it shouldn't) I'd have someone else look at it.  Did they mention these faults when the boat was returned after being winterized?  I'm wondering if they are setting themselves up to claim ANYTHING BUT their work!

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7 minutes ago, REHinH20 said:

Unless the marina's warranty says specifically they must do the work (which it shouldn't) I'd have someone else look at it.  Did they mention these faults when the boat was returned after being winterized?  I'm wondering if they are setting themselves up to claim ANYTHING BUT their work!

Not sure if you saw my first post, but we bought the boat from a previous owner in May 2020 (they are the ones who had it winterized at this marina). However, they picked the boat up from this marina the day we test drove it (proof on winterization doc). Everything ran fine until 7 hours later. When we brought the boat back to the marina after issues started occurring,  they did a compression test the next day and told us verbally it HAD to be two blown head gaskets and did mention code issues. However they never said it was a possibility that head gaskets cracked the block. Keep in mind we have had no overheating at all. 

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3 hours ago, justgary said:

It would make sense that a place that can't winterize a boat engine has to overcharge for diagnosing the issues they cause. 

Lol! We don’t know if that’s the issue for sure yet but it’s a possibility.

Edited by MFK27
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2 hours ago, MFK27 said:

So expensive!! They charged us $300 for the compression test alone! 

Do you have the results?  There should be 8 readings, each associated with a cylinder.

Marinas are crazy busy right now, and yes you will be charged a lot for everything.  They would rather crank out low risk, quick paying jobs than get into a project like yours right now (I know I sure would approach it that way if I owned a marina right now).  So bear that in mind, this is likely going to be an expensive PITA and not a quick process.  And really it's hard to say who is at fault until more is known.

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47 minutes ago, Michigan boarder said:

Do you have the results?  There should be 8 readings, each associated with a cylinder.

Marinas are crazy busy right now, and yes you will be charged a lot for everything.  They would rather crank out low risk, quick paying jobs than get into a project like yours right now (I know I sure would approach it that way if I owned a marina right now).  So bear that in mind, this is likely going to be an expensive PITA and not a quick process.  And really it's hard to say who is at fault until more is known.

Yep, that makes a lot of sense. And you’re right, we don’t know what is really going on yet! They gave us this level of detail on the compression test: 

“Compression test found zero and 40 lbs middle cyls and water in middle cylinders indicates head gaskets”

originally when they called, they didn’t provide the numbers but I asked them to speak with the mechanic and ask. They have not provided all cylinder readings just the above. 

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4 hours ago, oldjeep said:

$3000 will just about buy you a new long block.   That is a crazy amount for replacing head gaskets.

Definitely.  But then there's a labor bill that goes with it.  It's all a tough call.  If @MFK27 can negotiate a new long block (which, includes new, already installed heads) they might be willing to just replace the engine and move forward rather than this job tying up a bunch of time.

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The next question is what other damage may have occurred to the engine....

With that much water in the oil is there any concern for the bottom end?

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10 hours ago, MFK27 said:

Yep, that makes a lot of sense. And you’re right, we don’t know what is really going on yet! They gave us this level of detail on the compression test: 

“Compression test found zero and 40 lbs middle cyls and water in middle cylinders indicates head gaskets”

originally when they called, they didn’t provide the numbers but I asked them to speak with the mechanic and ask. They have not provided all cylinder readings just the above. 

We asked the marina to provide the results of the other cylinders and received the below response: 

“When he did the last of the middle cylinders, the gauge was contaminated with water from the first four he tested. The readings were consistent but way too high. He did not record them. He did the middle four again and wrote them down.” 

 

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1 hour ago, BoatFlyRide said:

The next question is what other damage may have occurred to the engine....

With that much water in the oil is there any concern for the bottom end?

Yeah idk... probably have to do a visual inspection for that. 

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16 hours ago, MFK27 said:

Not sure if you saw my first post, but we bought the boat from a previous owner in May 2020 (they are the ones who had it winterized at this marina). However, they picked the boat up from this marina the day we test drove it (proof on winterization doc). Everything ran fine until 7 hours later. When we brought the boat back to the marina after issues started occurring,  they did a compression test the next day and told us verbally it HAD to be two blown head gaskets and did mention code issues. However they never said it was a possibility that head gaskets cracked the block. Keep in mind we have had no overheating at all. 

Yes, I saw, but figured it would be worth your time to get this info from previous owner or even from the Marina.  There has to be a record somewhere.  Sounds like you might be needing it.

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